2018 YZ250F locked up

7/3/2018 1:06pm
Sucks man. My yz250 two stroke let go at the 60ish mark. I’ve seen some people log over 100hrs on them. Changed top end in my buddies 15 YZ250F at 75hrs and everything was in great shape. Valves still in spec also. Good luck
Flipsid33
Posts
164
Joined
11/24/2011
Location
Canyon Country, CA US
7/3/2018 3:23pm
JP726 wrote:
Flipsid33 Will the 15 head fit the 18? If so I’m very interested.
I don't believe that there is any major change to the 18. I can ship it to you and if it doesn't work out I'll refund you.
7/3/2018 4:41pm
PJRAUS wrote:
What is the cause though?
Yamaha made changes to the valve spring package - that makes me think they were chasing frictional gains - but it led to valve spring instability

A good friend who is also an excellent builder - recently thinks he also found another issue - but I can't share that out of respect for him and his hard work in trying to solve this.

Long and short - we've seen hardly any failures with an upgraded valve spring set up - the OEM springs themselves are durable - but the rate - and preload amount yamaha went to for 16-18 is problematic - at least from our experience.


I do believe certain users cause the bike to experience some form of resonance within the chain and valve/valve spring.
And of course - some people are just unlucky.

There are plenty of them out there - with zero problems.

The ole 5 valve turd - was so reliable in hindsight...it was the perfect engine at the perfect time to get the sport converted over.

The Shop

smoothies862
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3215
Joined
3/18/2014
Location
OH US
Fantasy
787th
7/3/2018 5:13pm
no doubt on the old engine. I beat the crap out of a 13 and never touched a thing. 15 had 45 hrs when I did new rod and top end. valves in spec. etc looked new. I was worried after all the stories about those rods. could you big bore this and come out better in the end? good luck hate when a new one craps on someone.
wildbill
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4358
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8/15/2006
Location
Christmas Valley, OR US
7/3/2018 5:24pm
PJRAUS wrote:
What is the cause though?
Yamaha made changes to the valve spring package - that makes me think they were chasing frictional gains - but it led to valve spring instability...
Yamaha made changes to the valve spring package - that makes me think they were chasing frictional gains - but it led to valve spring instability

A good friend who is also an excellent builder - recently thinks he also found another issue - but I can't share that out of respect for him and his hard work in trying to solve this.

Long and short - we've seen hardly any failures with an upgraded valve spring set up - the OEM springs themselves are durable - but the rate - and preload amount yamaha went to for 16-18 is problematic - at least from our experience.


I do believe certain users cause the bike to experience some form of resonance within the chain and valve/valve spring.
And of course - some people are just unlucky.

There are plenty of them out there - with zero problems.

The ole 5 valve turd - was so reliable in hindsight...it was the perfect engine at the perfect time to get the sport converted over.
And, the old 5 valve turds held 2 quarts of oil. 400's anyhow. Did the 250s?
newmann
Posts
24444
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
7/3/2018 7:39pm
PJRAUS wrote:
What is the cause though?
Yamaha made changes to the valve spring package - that makes me think they were chasing frictional gains - but it led to valve spring instability...
Yamaha made changes to the valve spring package - that makes me think they were chasing frictional gains - but it led to valve spring instability

A good friend who is also an excellent builder - recently thinks he also found another issue - but I can't share that out of respect for him and his hard work in trying to solve this.

Long and short - we've seen hardly any failures with an upgraded valve spring set up - the OEM springs themselves are durable - but the rate - and preload amount yamaha went to for 16-18 is problematic - at least from our experience.


I do believe certain users cause the bike to experience some form of resonance within the chain and valve/valve spring.
And of course - some people are just unlucky.

There are plenty of them out there - with zero problems.

The ole 5 valve turd - was so reliable in hindsight...it was the perfect engine at the perfect time to get the sport converted over.
wildbill wrote:
And, the old 5 valve turds held 2 quarts of oil. 400's anyhow. Did the 250s?
Pretty close, until you wet sumped them with a Dr. D kit. Then they held .8. After mine grenaded in grand fashion I had Thumper Racing go through it and do their 280 kit at the time. Added the Dr D wet sump kit to go with the DSP Seca Stack carbon air box, Vortex ignition and DSP full ti SX exhaust. Ran pretty damn good and I always thought of it as the ultimate vet class weapon for someone who always longed for something somewhere in between a 125 and 250 2 stroke. It was great with the exception that the idiots in charge allowed them to compete with 125's. From the first time I rode it around the back of the dealers parking lot I knew the future was f'd. "The old five valve turds" had enough going for them to cause the extinction of the 125 class. Of course that had more to do with the crooks and thieves at the AMA who were more concerned with lining their pockets and polishing that OEM knob than worrying about a few decades of the history of the sport.
7/3/2018 8:15pm
PJRAUS wrote:
What is the cause though?
Yamaha made changes to the valve spring package - that makes me think they were chasing frictional gains - but it led to valve spring instability...
Yamaha made changes to the valve spring package - that makes me think they were chasing frictional gains - but it led to valve spring instability

A good friend who is also an excellent builder - recently thinks he also found another issue - but I can't share that out of respect for him and his hard work in trying to solve this.

Long and short - we've seen hardly any failures with an upgraded valve spring set up - the OEM springs themselves are durable - but the rate - and preload amount yamaha went to for 16-18 is problematic - at least from our experience.


I do believe certain users cause the bike to experience some form of resonance within the chain and valve/valve spring.
And of course - some people are just unlucky.

There are plenty of them out there - with zero problems.

The ole 5 valve turd - was so reliable in hindsight...it was the perfect engine at the perfect time to get the sport converted over.
wildbill wrote:
And, the old 5 valve turds held 2 quarts of oil. 400's anyhow. Did the 250s?
While I agree the older models with more oil and the external tank that acts a like like an oil cooler were much better for long term life - that doesn't have anything to do with the valve issues IMHO

The old ones were still rock solid oil tank removed...and down at 1 qt - while flow was shit and ultimately power potential
PJRAUS
Posts
1532
Joined
5/28/2016
Location
AU
7/4/2018 5:39pm
PJRAUS wrote:
What is the cause though?
Yamaha made changes to the valve spring package - that makes me think they were chasing frictional gains - but it led to valve spring instability...
Yamaha made changes to the valve spring package - that makes me think they were chasing frictional gains - but it led to valve spring instability

A good friend who is also an excellent builder - recently thinks he also found another issue - but I can't share that out of respect for him and his hard work in trying to solve this.

Long and short - we've seen hardly any failures with an upgraded valve spring set up - the OEM springs themselves are durable - but the rate - and preload amount yamaha went to for 16-18 is problematic - at least from our experience.


I do believe certain users cause the bike to experience some form of resonance within the chain and valve/valve spring.
And of course - some people are just unlucky.

There are plenty of them out there - with zero problems.

The ole 5 valve turd - was so reliable in hindsight...it was the perfect engine at the perfect time to get the sport converted over.
I was wondering if there has ever been any instances of the cam chain tensioner intermittently slipping? ie the one way mechanism in the tensioner slipping under a load and allowing the tensioner shaft to push back on the tension spring causing chain slack , enough to allow the valve to hit the piston?
Someone here said it happened twice to them in less than 20 hours?
I wonder if they just rebuilt the head and went with the original chain and tensioner unit after the first rebuild?

Sounds strange that it could be just some riders causing a weird resonance ( is that really valve bounce ) problem?
murph783
Posts
1361
Joined
3/2/2011
Location
CT US
7/4/2018 6:19pm
Yamaha made changes to the valve spring package - that makes me think they were chasing frictional gains - but it led to valve spring instability...
Yamaha made changes to the valve spring package - that makes me think they were chasing frictional gains - but it led to valve spring instability

A good friend who is also an excellent builder - recently thinks he also found another issue - but I can't share that out of respect for him and his hard work in trying to solve this.

Long and short - we've seen hardly any failures with an upgraded valve spring set up - the OEM springs themselves are durable - but the rate - and preload amount yamaha went to for 16-18 is problematic - at least from our experience.


I do believe certain users cause the bike to experience some form of resonance within the chain and valve/valve spring.
And of course - some people are just unlucky.

There are plenty of them out there - with zero problems.

The ole 5 valve turd - was so reliable in hindsight...it was the perfect engine at the perfect time to get the sport converted over.
wildbill wrote:
And, the old 5 valve turds held 2 quarts of oil. 400's anyhow. Did the 250s?
While I agree the older models with more oil and the external tank that acts a like like an oil cooler were much better for long...
While I agree the older models with more oil and the external tank that acts a like like an oil cooler were much better for long term life - that doesn't have anything to do with the valve issues IMHO

The old ones were still rock solid oil tank removed...and down at 1 qt - while flow was shit and ultimately power potential
What’s your thought on the rod problems with these things? I’ve got a 14 on its third piston, but still stock rod at about 75 hours give or take. One of my friends that works for a Yamaha team says I’m well into borrowed time on that. Any fix or anything you can recommend for a replacement? I was leaning toward an oem 16-18 crank
chump6784
Posts
1692
Joined
5/9/2011
Location
AU
7/5/2018 1:10am
Sucks man. My yz250 two stroke let go at the 60ish mark. I’ve seen some people log over 100hrs on them. Changed top end in my...
Sucks man. My yz250 two stroke let go at the 60ish mark. I’ve seen some people log over 100hrs on them. Changed top end in my buddies 15 YZ250F at 75hrs and everything was in great shape. Valves still in spec also. Good luck
What let go on your yz?
7/5/2018 2:44am
Sucks man. My yz250 two stroke let go at the 60ish mark. I’ve seen some people log over 100hrs on them. Changed top end in my...
Sucks man. My yz250 two stroke let go at the 60ish mark. I’ve seen some people log over 100hrs on them. Changed top end in my buddies 15 YZ250F at 75hrs and everything was in great shape. Valves still in spec also. Good luck
chump6784 wrote:
What let go on your yz?
Piston skirt cracked
#434
Posts
1918
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
7/5/2018 3:09am
Not to get off topic, but what were the problems with the 2015s rods? Was it just a batch that was bad or was there a design issue all together? I have one and am wondering when to do the low end.
7/5/2018 10:43am
PJRAUS wrote:
What is the cause though?
Yamaha made changes to the valve spring package - that makes me think they were chasing frictional gains - but it led to valve spring instability...
Yamaha made changes to the valve spring package - that makes me think they were chasing frictional gains - but it led to valve spring instability

A good friend who is also an excellent builder - recently thinks he also found another issue - but I can't share that out of respect for him and his hard work in trying to solve this.

Long and short - we've seen hardly any failures with an upgraded valve spring set up - the OEM springs themselves are durable - but the rate - and preload amount yamaha went to for 16-18 is problematic - at least from our experience.


I do believe certain users cause the bike to experience some form of resonance within the chain and valve/valve spring.
And of course - some people are just unlucky.

There are plenty of them out there - with zero problems.

The ole 5 valve turd - was so reliable in hindsight...it was the perfect engine at the perfect time to get the sport converted over.
PJRAUS wrote:
I was wondering if there has ever been any instances of the cam chain tensioner intermittently slipping? ie the one way mechanism in the tensioner slipping...
I was wondering if there has ever been any instances of the cam chain tensioner intermittently slipping? ie the one way mechanism in the tensioner slipping under a load and allowing the tensioner shaft to push back on the tension spring causing chain slack , enough to allow the valve to hit the piston?
Someone here said it happened twice to them in less than 20 hours?
I wonder if they just rebuilt the head and went with the original chain and tensioner unit after the first rebuild?

Sounds strange that it could be just some riders causing a weird resonance ( is that really valve bounce ) problem?
resonance doesn't mean specifically valve float...valve stem rocking and "noodling" is possible - spring resonance is possible even with the valve closed - and all sorts of other issues. The old rod issues may also have been a resonance issue within the rod - very likely.

If the problem were "easy" to understand - or solve - yamaha would have never had it. They are "smarter" and certainly more well funded in researching the specific root cause of an issue than just about anyone. I may be "solving" the issue with a spring package change - that isn't actually solving it at all - just a bandaid that holds it together.
7/5/2018 10:47am
wildbill wrote:
And, the old 5 valve turds held 2 quarts of oil. 400's anyhow. Did the 250s?
While I agree the older models with more oil and the external tank that acts a like like an oil cooler were much better for long...
While I agree the older models with more oil and the external tank that acts a like like an oil cooler were much better for long term life - that doesn't have anything to do with the valve issues IMHO

The old ones were still rock solid oil tank removed...and down at 1 qt - while flow was shit and ultimately power potential
murph783 wrote:
What’s your thought on the rod problems with these things? I’ve got a 14 on its third piston, but still stock rod at about 75 hours...
What’s your thought on the rod problems with these things? I’ve got a 14 on its third piston, but still stock rod at about 75 hours give or take. One of my friends that works for a Yamaha team says I’m well into borrowed time on that. Any fix or anything you can recommend for a replacement? I was leaning toward an oem 16-18 crank
I had a host of customers grenade at under 50 hours in 14-15.

Some of which DIDNT abuse - and barely even USED the bike - we had one at like 7 hours with a vet guy.

Then there are some that went 150 hours - lost a rod bearing (totally normal) rather than a snapped rod - and had the best of luck.

Personally - anyone with a 14-15 I was suggesting at the time a carillo or falicon rod - and when the 16 came out - a 16 crank assembly.

I DO believe you are on borrowed time - and when they let go -it's disastrous. more often than not it claims the cases, cylinder, sometimes the head and valves, and of course the crank.


It's far cheaper to buy a new oem crank - bearings, top end - and just go through it all. The counter balancer got an update (throwback to another thread) to match up with the newer crank's different balance factor to alter the perceived vibration - so you can get that too if you wish - although it still works ok with the 14-15 balancer.
1
murph783
Posts
1361
Joined
3/2/2011
Location
CT US
7/5/2018 2:54pm
While I agree the older models with more oil and the external tank that acts a like like an oil cooler were much better for long...
While I agree the older models with more oil and the external tank that acts a like like an oil cooler were much better for long term life - that doesn't have anything to do with the valve issues IMHO

The old ones were still rock solid oil tank removed...and down at 1 qt - while flow was shit and ultimately power potential
murph783 wrote:
What’s your thought on the rod problems with these things? I’ve got a 14 on its third piston, but still stock rod at about 75 hours...
What’s your thought on the rod problems with these things? I’ve got a 14 on its third piston, but still stock rod at about 75 hours give or take. One of my friends that works for a Yamaha team says I’m well into borrowed time on that. Any fix or anything you can recommend for a replacement? I was leaning toward an oem 16-18 crank
I had a host of customers grenade at under 50 hours in 14-15. Some of which DIDNT abuse - and barely even USED the bike -...
I had a host of customers grenade at under 50 hours in 14-15.

Some of which DIDNT abuse - and barely even USED the bike - we had one at like 7 hours with a vet guy.

Then there are some that went 150 hours - lost a rod bearing (totally normal) rather than a snapped rod - and had the best of luck.

Personally - anyone with a 14-15 I was suggesting at the time a carillo or falicon rod - and when the 16 came out - a 16 crank assembly.

I DO believe you are on borrowed time - and when they let go -it's disastrous. more often than not it claims the cases, cylinder, sometimes the head and valves, and of course the crank.


It's far cheaper to buy a new oem crank - bearings, top end - and just go through it all. The counter balancer got an update (throwback to another thread) to match up with the newer crank's different balance factor to alter the perceived vibration - so you can get that too if you wish - although it still works ok with the 14-15 balancer.
Right on, thanks man!
Truckdriver
Posts
762
Joined
2/21/2009
Location
Fort Dodge, IA US
2/2/2020 3:23pm
Interesting. Like a couple of the other stated, the 5 valve motor probably should have said Timex on it. I have a 2007 YZ250Fwith 658 hours on it, 2 rebuilds, one with a crank. The 07 450 went 286 hrs, and on the 2 build the crank failed. Got lucky no case damage. Tried a Wrench Rabbit kit, went 87 hours, fresh top end, valves, timing chain, lifters and locks. 107 hours since that and still runs like a top.
My 14 went 2.9 hours locked up. Turns out, first batch of 14's had an issue with the water pump shaft breaking. Yamaha was pretty cool and provided all the new parts necessary to rebuild it. Ran it the next season and a half traded for a 16.(I have two friends that had 14's, exact same thing.)
The 16 was fresh when I got it, only ran 44 hours traded for the 2017 I now have. So far its been great. 97 hours of MX and woods riding. I'm just about to freshen it up. Believe i will do a big bore kit on it.
However I know of somebody else that went to Yamaha's for 18, and literally had issues from hour 5 on. I'm not sure just how many times the bike failed. But it diffidently was the timing chain. They finally started to change the timing chain after 1 hour of racing. They have now went to a different brand. So i believe the 18's were an issue. I just bought one, and when I do rebuild I am going to have piston mfg. add .002-.004 to valve relief to just add a little measure of safety. And I will replace timing chain a little more often to. I still like the YZF's. I seem to be more comfy on them than others. Though a few years back I did a CRF270F BB and it was the most fun bike I have ever ridden. Fast Core mods head, Hot Cams stage 2 cams, injector mods, remap, FMF, and sat on Enzo suspension.
walent215
Posts
2418
Joined
12/6/2014
Location
Ridgecrest, CA US
2/2/2020 3:46pm Edited Date/Time 2/2/2020 3:52pm


Wrekt...lol
16 yz250f Vortex Ecu, Stock comp vertex piston, kibblewhite Ti flat top valves, reground oe cams.
Fast novice rider, moto.
Low hours on rebuild.

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