2014 Honda CR250R 2- stroke wish list

CamP
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3/18/2013 11:03am
That motor was long in the tooth anyway. Virtually unchanged since 92. Yes, it's a great motor, but it's hard to sell bikes without a shiny...
That motor was long in the tooth anyway. Virtually unchanged since 92. Yes, it's a great motor, but it's hard to sell bikes without a shiny new "widget".

CamP, have you seen people using the SBN Jetski carbs on the 02+ motors? Pretty wicked. Probably only likes being wide open though.
I haven't seen anything on the SBN carb, but part of the problem with the Mikuni TMX spec'd on the final CR250's is that it is great for peak horsepower, but not good at the partial throttle positions that are typical on an mx track. The Keihin PWK air stryker is a much better mx carb, but it seems like Honda was shooting for 50hp from the CR250 and the Mikuni helped them get there, at the expense of good moto power delivery.
3/18/2013 11:10am Edited Date/Time 3/18/2013 11:12am
That motor was long in the tooth anyway. Virtually unchanged since 92. Yes, it's a great motor, but it's hard to sell bikes without a shiny...
That motor was long in the tooth anyway. Virtually unchanged since 92. Yes, it's a great motor, but it's hard to sell bikes without a shiny new "widget".

CamP, have you seen people using the SBN Jetski carbs on the 02+ motors? Pretty wicked. Probably only likes being wide open though.
CamP wrote:
I haven't seen anything on the SBN carb, but part of the problem with the Mikuni TMX spec'd on the final CR250's is that it is...
I haven't seen anything on the SBN carb, but part of the problem with the Mikuni TMX spec'd on the final CR250's is that it is great for peak horsepower, but not good at the partial throttle positions that are typical on an mx track. The Keihin PWK air stryker is a much better mx carb, but it seems like Honda was shooting for 50hp from the CR250 and the Mikuni helped them get there, at the expense of good moto power delivery.
There is a dyno sheet right floating around of a Mikuni SBN carb'd 02-04 motor doing 66hp with the OEM bore/stroke.

Yes, it is in a superkart, and yes, the pipe would accomodate a basketball. But, the curve itself actually doesn't look too peaky.

I was looking at my Mikuni the other day, and I think that if someone were to machine a new slide that sealed better, they'd be on to something. I think that's the problem. The partial throttle fueling sucks because there is a bunch of air getting by that square slide.

Fixing that Mikuni has been on the back of my mind since the first time I cracked it open for exactly that reason. It really does make more peak power, and Carmichael went 24-0 with it. With that being said, I have a PWK on my bike and love it.

Here. 63.55bhp. the correction factor is so heavy its hard to tell much form the curve though.

CamP
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3/18/2013 12:12pm
CamP if you are interested in reading, there is A LOT of good information in this thread on the last-gen motors. It's a lot better read...
CamP if you are interested in reading, there is A LOT of good information in this thread on the last-gen motors. It's a lot better read that most of the stuff on TT.

http://www.ekartingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=677992&sid=af33fc4077960076…
Thanks for the link. I'm swamped with work right now, but I'll give it a read when I have a break in the action.

The Shop

DrSweden
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3/18/2013 2:29pm
Support KTM, TM, Husky and maybe Yamaha. Problem solved. Karma will sort this deal out.
burn1986
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3/18/2013 4:08pm
I thinker need some photoshop pics of the ideal CR 125, 250, and 500. I'll start looking.
3/18/2013 4:28pm
DrSweden wrote:
Support KTM, TM, Husky and maybe Yamaha. Problem solved. Karma will sort this deal out.
this ^
kiwifan
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3/18/2013 5:11pm
GuyB wrote:
If I was any manufacturer looking to do a two-stroke, I'd be looking for a long-term displacement rule/plan in place before I even went to the...
If I was any manufacturer looking to do a two-stroke, I'd be looking for a long-term displacement rule/plan in place before I even went to the drawing board.
x1000000

Despite all the hate towards Honda here (apparently they are to blame for the demise of 2T's) no Jap manufacturer is going to supply a competitive 2T unless the rules allow it to compete and win.

Good on KTM, TM, Husky etc for continuing to make 2T's .... if that depicts what brand of bike you guy then all power to you, fact is if you race at pro level you cant compete against the 4T's whether you admit it or not. If you buy them to just play around on or the occaisional local races then cool, I have just as much fun racing a 2T as I do a 4T...different riding styles.

Not sure about World MX GP's though, are 2T's allowed?? Dont see any of them in top 20 if thats the case, and the KTM factory doesnt race them.
Lone Wolf
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3/18/2013 6:19pm Edited Date/Time 5/18/2013 5:07am
wardy wrote:
really wolf? honda don't owe me a thing, but be nice if they would change thier mind, like they did when they stopped contingency vowing never...
really wolf?

honda don't owe me a thing, but be nice if they would change thier mind, like they did when they stopped contingency vowing never to return only to do so after 4 years.

you see when customers like myself and others ask/complain/bitch etc about a process that a company has, then that company (being that they are selling to the public) will either listen or not. Whats nice about it is I like honda's, and I like 2 stroke hondas. I want them to make new ones so i can afford to race them with my kids.

For some reason you don't like that fact that I will make that public and will make sure that if there is a story line on that point, i i will beat that dead horse til maybe someone wakes the fk up. NOW if they continue this path, then I would love to see them end up 5TH out of the big 4 in oem bike sales to proove them wrong. sorry it's the racer in me, i like to win. evidently you don't like when i have that opinion. thats fine too.

and since you have no clue who i am, then you wouldn't have a friggin clue on the "thug" tactics i have experienced first hand and personal when these guys want to make thier product have the upper hand by pushing rules and agenda, so you can go thier if ya like, no biggie and i can back it up.

all one has to do is look at the rules for normal AMA racing 150cc honda, and then look at the supplemental rules for that bike with the choosen ones. conspiracy? LOLOLOLOLOL na not even, simply a big company pushing it's agenda. You know like the one I have which i stated above.


Guy B. rules are in place amatuer level and work fine. pro level the ONLY class i believe today would work is if a bigger smoker would be allowed in the 450cc class. Not sure on the 250's since OEM's have so many ways to make anything better.

but allowing 500cc machines in Open class at nationals would be fair and compatible. But with that said i don't really care, amatuer works and we enjoy that. Not into watching we rather ride.


Yeah, I understand all of that. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but if you are going to post it on a public forum, expect it to be challenged.

All I was really saying is that it is stupid you are so loyal to a company that refuses to make the product you desire when there are alternatives available from other manufacturers.

I don't care who you are, but if you have some evidence of Honda using "thug like tactics" to get their own way, I would be genuinely interested in seeing it. As I said, until I do, I will continue to view people who post that sort of thing as delusional crackpots and conspiracy theorists.
Personally, I believe there is some truth to this idea, but it is pure speculation on my part. Therefore, I would not try to use it as evidence to support an idea I was trying to get across.
X-RACER
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3/18/2013 6:49pm
The TM 250 MX is Badass.
Lone Wolf
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3/18/2013 6:55pm
For the record, I love two strokes. I just try to keep my thoughts on the subject a bit more realistic and rational than some others.

I think smokers do still have a place in the sport, but I would also support rule changes to make them more competitive. IMO, It would be really cool if all of the Japanese manufacturers resumed development and production of two stroke dirt bikes. I just get sick of reading the ridiculous ideas, conspiracy theories and four stroke bashing that comes from the accounts of many extremist two stroke fanboys.
X-RACER
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3/18/2013 7:22pm Edited Date/Time 3/18/2013 7:28pm
Two strokes have a big place in the sport except in the pros for some reason. What that reason is is what the debate is all about. Some blame it on Yamaha some on Honda some the AMA or the wanna be pros etc.
Im not a Two-stroke fanboy im a Motocrosser and a mx fan. Its just that to me MX is a Two-stroke sport. This thing were watching is not MX/SX is's something else, something different and not quite as exciting. The bikes are easier to ride,the tracks are smoother kinda like old school TT not brutal MX/SX.
mynewcr250
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3/18/2013 7:41pm
Travis; of course a stock 2-stroke is not as smooth as tractable as a 4-stroke when things get slippery, but neither can a 4 stroke bark...
Travis; of course a stock 2-stroke is not as smooth as tractable as a 4-stroke when things get slippery, but neither can a 4 stroke bark like a 2 stroke and seat bounce a big jump right out of a tight corner so easily when there is traction. And for the 2 stroke, just put a bigger fly wheel on to make it more smooth and tractable like a 4 stroke. I have no idea what you could do to a 4 stroke to make it bark and snap to attention like a 2 stroke.. nitrous oxide maybe? Smile

Wardy: my spy photo days are over. My last spy photo of a Honda prototype CR250 2 stroke is this one here that I took in Japan years ago. The prototype had the newer generation frame and the 2001 piston port engine, but they went with the case reed with the electronic exhaust valve that felt more like a 125 on steriods and it was all downhill after that. I would love to have that prototype and it was probably the best 250 2-stroke ever built to date.



Guy; the manufacturers only race to sell bikes to the average joe. They can race their 4 strokes on Sunday and still sell the 2 strokes to the average Joe on Monday.

mike
that is cool right there. i was trying to figure out who the hell butchered that bike up, turns out honda was onto something and failed miserably.
wardy
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3/18/2013 11:09pm
ok wolf you win.

I use my real name in here and well if you like the rules that we use here in the U.S for amatuer mx. I know the person who fought for 7 years to make that happen.

conspiracy stuff? thats funny.

i don't and couldn't post anything that isn't true. when i say they use those tactics, well guido isn't standing in the corner, but the pressure they use is pretty clear.

Well i explain it more. nope don't need to.
Lone Wolf
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3/19/2013 2:27am Edited Date/Time 3/19/2013 2:29am
X-RACER wrote:
Two strokes have a big place in the sport except in the pros for some reason. What that reason is is what the debate is all...
Two strokes have a big place in the sport except in the pros for some reason. What that reason is is what the debate is all about. Some blame it on Yamaha some on Honda some the AMA or the wanna be pros etc.
Im not a Two-stroke fanboy im a Motocrosser and a mx fan. Its just that to me MX is a Two-stroke sport. This thing were watching is not MX/SX is's something else, something different and not quite as exciting. The bikes are easier to ride,the tracks are smoother kinda like old school TT not brutal MX/SX.
You claim you are not a two stroke fanboy, but in the very next sentence say "to me motocross is a two stroke sport." You go on to insinuate that it "is not MX/SX but something else" without two strokes involved. You also suggested earlier in this thread that CRF's are "glorified dual sport bikes." And then there is this masterpiece you drafted a few days ago.

Just admit it, brah - you are a two stroke fanboy!
Lone Wolf
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3/19/2013 4:03am
wardy wrote:
ok wolf you win. I use my real name in here and well if you like the rules that we use here in the U.S for...
ok wolf you win.

I use my real name in here and well if you like the rules that we use here in the U.S for amatuer mx. I know the person who fought for 7 years to make that happen.

conspiracy stuff? thats funny.

i don't and couldn't post anything that isn't true. when i say they use those tactics, well guido isn't standing in the corner, but the pressure they use is pretty clear.

Well i explain it more. nope don't need to.
I mainly come here for entertainment value and it has never been my intention to try and discredit or belittle anyone. I was really just joking around to start with, and probably got a bit carried away - I did not mean to single you out.

It just seems like a bit of a witch hunt when people hold Honda/Yamaha/The AMA etc responsible for wrongdoings relating to rule changes when there is no real evidence. I have no idea who "guido" is, but I do realise it would be very difficult to ever prove what takes place behind closed doors.
Shawn142
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3/19/2013 4:44am
X-RACER wrote:
The TM 250 MX is Badass.
No offence but have you actually ridden one? Have you felt the teeth chattering vibration or the awkward ergos? Or is it just badass because it's a 2-stroke with some name brand parts?
nytsmaC
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3/19/2013 5:05am
Shawn142 wrote:
No offence but have you actually ridden one? Have you felt the teeth chattering vibration or the awkward ergos? Or is it just badass because it's...
No offence but have you actually ridden one? Have you felt the teeth chattering vibration or the awkward ergos? Or is it just badass because it's a 2-stroke with some name brand parts?
What year was the one you rode?
3/19/2013 5:29am
Lone Wolf wrote:
For the record, I love two strokes. I just try to keep my thoughts on the subject a bit more realistic and rational than some others...
For the record, I love two strokes. I just try to keep my thoughts on the subject a bit more realistic and rational than some others.

I think smokers do still have a place in the sport, but I would also support rule changes to make them more competitive. IMO, It would be really cool if all of the Japanese manufacturers resumed development and production of two stroke dirt bikes. I just get sick of reading the ridiculous ideas, conspiracy theories and four stroke bashing that comes from the accounts of many extremist two stroke fanboys.
I can always tell when someone doesn't actually ride, and bases their opinions of the sport on what they see in the pro ranks.

Realistic? Go to a local track. Race. Full of two-strokes everywhere you go.

Pro racing is a fucking circus anyway.
slipdog
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3/19/2013 5:43am
Shawn142 wrote:
No offence but have you actually ridden one? Have you felt the teeth chattering vibration or the awkward ergos? Or is it just badass because it's...
No offence but have you actually ridden one? Have you felt the teeth chattering vibration or the awkward ergos? Or is it just badass because it's a 2-stroke with some name brand parts?
nytsmaC wrote:
What year was the one you rode?
I rode a '12 TM 250 and was surprised by two things. The ergos felt totally normal and the suspension, while not great, was balanced and worked as good as any stock Japanese set up.

Overall a pretty solid bike.
3/19/2013 5:55am
Shawn142 wrote:
No offence but have you actually ridden one? Have you felt the teeth chattering vibration or the awkward ergos? Or is it just badass because it's...
No offence but have you actually ridden one? Have you felt the teeth chattering vibration or the awkward ergos? Or is it just badass because it's a 2-stroke with some name brand parts?
nytsmaC wrote:
What year was the one you rode?
slipdog wrote:
I rode a '12 TM 250 and was surprised by two things. The ergos felt totally normal and the suspension, while not great, was balanced and...
I rode a '12 TM 250 and was surprised by two things. The ergos felt totally normal and the suspension, while not great, was balanced and worked as good as any stock Japanese set up.

Overall a pretty solid bike.
This.

Bars are a little tall, and it has a shitty 4 spring clutch. Other than that, those bikes are T-Rick.
ando
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3/19/2013 6:05am
Lone Wolf wrote:
For the record, I love two strokes. I just try to keep my thoughts on the subject a bit more realistic and rational than some others...
For the record, I love two strokes. I just try to keep my thoughts on the subject a bit more realistic and rational than some others.

I think smokers do still have a place in the sport, but I would also support rule changes to make them more competitive. IMO, It would be really cool if all of the Japanese manufacturers resumed development and production of two stroke dirt bikes. I just get sick of reading the ridiculous ideas, conspiracy theories and four stroke bashing that comes from the accounts of many extremist two stroke fanboys.
I can always tell when someone doesn't actually ride, and bases their opinions of the sport on what they see in the pro ranks. Realistic? Go...
I can always tell when someone doesn't actually ride, and bases their opinions of the sport on what they see in the pro ranks.

Realistic? Go to a local track. Race. Full of two-strokes everywhere you go.

Pro racing is a fucking circus anyway.
Problem is, pro racing is still heavily production based. That means they have to race what they sell, and they have to sell what they race. I think it would be difficult for the larger manufacturers to justify production and ongoing development of two machines that compete in the same class.

Despite the best intentions, achieving parity in two different engine configurations is difficult. Pro teams and serious amateurs will quickly work out which one is better, and the other will be left behind (the alternative of course is constant rule changes which quickly turns into a nightmare). We then end up back at the point in my first paragraph.

I know KTM is actually doing this, so it can be done, but I also believe their business and philosophy is fundamentally different to the Japanese OEM's.
X-RACER
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3/19/2013 7:21am Edited Date/Time 3/19/2013 7:23am
X-RACER wrote:
Two strokes have a big place in the sport except in the pros for some reason. What that reason is is what the debate is all...
Two strokes have a big place in the sport except in the pros for some reason. What that reason is is what the debate is all about. Some blame it on Yamaha some on Honda some the AMA or the wanna be pros etc.
Im not a Two-stroke fanboy im a Motocrosser and a mx fan. Its just that to me MX is a Two-stroke sport. This thing were watching is not MX/SX is's something else, something different and not quite as exciting. The bikes are easier to ride,the tracks are smoother kinda like old school TT not brutal MX/SX.
Lone Wolf wrote:
You claim you are not a two stroke fanboy, but in the very next sentence say "to me motocross is a two stroke sport." You go...
You claim you are not a two stroke fanboy, but in the very next sentence say "to me motocross is a two stroke sport." You go on to insinuate that it "is not MX/SX but something else" without two strokes involved. You also suggested earlier in this thread that CRF's are "glorified dual sport bikes." And then there is this masterpiece you drafted a few days ago.

Just admit it, brah - you are a two stroke fanboy!
LOL---you talk funny. But anyway, on the subject of two-Stroke bikes yes I own some I ride them,Race them,work on them and buy them when i can. I also have a few 4-Strokes. 4Strokes have there place ya know like my girlfriend's bike is a 4S you'll keep saying its easier to ride and perhaps your right, She agrees.Also my Street bikes are all 4S.....They banned the 2S from the street in 1986.
X-RACER
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3/19/2013 7:25am


see its a 4S.
3/19/2013 10:40am
X-RACER wrote:
LOL---you talk funny. But anyway, on the subject of two-Stroke bikes yes I own some I ride them,Race them,work on them and buy them when i...
LOL---you talk funny. But anyway, on the subject of two-Stroke bikes yes I own some I ride them,Race them,work on them and buy them when i can. I also have a few 4-Strokes. 4Strokes have there place ya know like my girlfriend's bike is a 4S you'll keep saying its easier to ride and perhaps your right, She agrees.Also my Street bikes are all 4S.....They banned the 2S from the street in 1986.
I, n the other hand, ride a RGV and cut my grass with a Lawnboy.

Fuck it.
Lone Wolf
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3/19/2013 11:40am
I can always tell when someone doesn't actually ride, and bases their opinions of the sport on what they see in the pro ranks. Realistic? Go...
I can always tell when someone doesn't actually ride, and bases their opinions of the sport on what they see in the pro ranks.

Realistic? Go to a local track. Race. Full of two-strokes everywhere you go.

Pro racing is a fucking circus anyway.
Well you're wrong in this case, T-Jeff. I do in fact race and have done so since I was 10 (13 years). I am not sure what I have written that gave you that impression anyway. I'm also not sure what I have written that you deem unrealistic.

Over here, we have cc for cc racing at national level, including a standalone 125cc two stroke class. In the Junior ranks (under 17), they have implemented separate 125cc classes also (which was a masterstroke, IMO). At local level, they normally just run over 250cc and under 250cc classes because of rider numbers.
From my perspective, the Junior 125 classes have proved very popular. The vast majority of Senior riders still tend to favour the four strokes for whatever reason, but you do see more two strokes around than you did a few years ago.

It is funny - I can always tell when someone is blinded by an agenda. It is also funny how easy it is to pick your new accounts each time you make one.
Lone Wolf
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3/19/2013 11:41am
X-RACER wrote:
LOL---you talk funny. But anyway, on the subject of two-Stroke bikes yes I own some I ride them,Race them,work on them and buy them when i...
LOL---you talk funny. But anyway, on the subject of two-Stroke bikes yes I own some I ride them,Race them,work on them and buy them when i can. I also have a few 4-Strokes. 4Strokes have there place ya know like my girlfriend's bike is a 4S you'll keep saying its easier to ride and perhaps your right, She agrees.Also my Street bikes are all 4S.....They banned the 2S from the street in 1986.
I was just joking around, man. Don''t take it personally.
burn1986
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3/19/2013 11:42am
Shawn142 wrote:
No offence but have you actually ridden one? Have you felt the teeth chattering vibration or the awkward ergos? Or is it just badass because it's...
No offence but have you actually ridden one? Have you felt the teeth chattering vibration or the awkward ergos? Or is it just badass because it's a 2-stroke with some name brand parts?
nytsmaC wrote:
What year was the one you rode?
He hasn't, he's just negative.
DrSweden
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3/19/2013 12:24pm
Just rode a 13 TM144, back to back with my 06 YZ125. Different bike no doubt.

My YZ felt like a sponge, but both me and the owner actually felt more comfortable with the YZ, meaning we felt more comfy approaching jumps etc. I got the sensation that the TM with the standard settings aim faster riders (and I don't how that feels), but it felt better the "harder" I pushed it, felt more stable while going "fast" on the straights, fast speed. They both have the KYB SSS.

What I didn't like at all was the power-band, kind of died off way to fast, short shifting needed, revving felt awkward, while the YZ keept going and asked for more kind of. But the TM had two different engine maps buttons (1 or 2) next to the grip, and maybe the other one would have been more to my liking? The hydraulic clutch that people crave for, had a rather heavy pull compared to the YZs crazy easy pull, I figure even a rheumatic could enjoy riding.

In the end, most likely it's the settings, but I think I prefer the 125 characteristics to start with, and I didn't feel those 3 extra ponies making a different worth fighting for.

Still I dig the TM uniqueness, and if tweaked to ones likings I feel the experience will be enhanced multiplied compared to owning one of 1.0000.00000 Yamahas around, and it's a joy just watching the bike, and all the components. The amount of people approaching my friend and his ride, was also pretty pleasant, it's like owning a Ferrari compared it's counterpart BMW or
whatever.


Ferrari


BMW (or Volvo)
cwtoyota
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3/19/2013 12:29pm
There is a dyno sheet right floating around of a Mikuni SBN carb'd 02-04 motor doing 66hp with the OEM bore/stroke. Yes, it is in a...
There is a dyno sheet right floating around of a Mikuni SBN carb'd 02-04 motor doing 66hp with the OEM bore/stroke.

Yes, it is in a superkart, and yes, the pipe would accomodate a basketball. But, the curve itself actually doesn't look too peaky.

I was looking at my Mikuni the other day, and I think that if someone were to machine a new slide that sealed better, they'd be on to something. I think that's the problem. The partial throttle fueling sucks because there is a bunch of air getting by that square slide.

Fixing that Mikuni has been on the back of my mind since the first time I cracked it open for exactly that reason. It really does make more peak power, and Carmichael went 24-0 with it. With that being said, I have a PWK on my bike and love it.

Here. 63.55bhp. the correction factor is so heavy its hard to tell much form the curve though.

It doesn't look peaky but in my opinion that's because this graph only shows 7000 RPM through 10,500 RPM.

I think if you scale that graph to match a typical MX graph, it will look very different. Especially if you add in the 3000-7000 RPM range that we typically see on a Motocross 250cc two stroke.

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