2014 Honda CR250R 2- stroke wish list

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3/17/2013 11:04 AM
Edited Date/Time: 3/17/2013 12:37 PM

If Honda brings back the CR250 2 stroke, I would just have to buy it and perhaps I am thinking if we talk about it enough, it just might happen. In reality, the thing that might cause Honda to rethink its 2 stroke MXers is the very thing that caused them to stop making them.. their pride with the thought that they lead the industry. Traditionally, Honda felt that Yamaha was its biggest competitor/ innovator. In fact it was Yamaha that came out with the 4-stroke Mxer first and the only Japanese manufacturer to hold on to the 2-stroke. They probably also see the tremendous success that KTM is having by giving the individual market segements exactly what it wants as opposed to the Honda way of telling the public what they want/ what it wants to make. KTM technology has made tremendous strides over recent years and really it challenging or surpassing the Japanese. They already have production 2 stroke motorcrossers that are making more power than the Japaese counterparts ever did. They are also starting to win a lot of the pro races. This must be making them nervous.. as KTM is taking market share because they are giving the customers exactly what they want. The 4 strokes have come a long way, but their expense to buy and maintain, heavier (also causing more likliehood of injury), as well as a diminishing of the fun factor in spite of their competiveness, is killing their blue-collar customer base. This sentiment has been expressed over and over by all levels of rider ability. In the hope that my post will give Honda one more kick in the pants, here is my wish list for an all new CR250 2-stroke.

1. Go back to the 2000-2001 piston port design that everyone loved or suck up your pride and flat out copy KTM's case reed design with about 50 horsepower. Make the power band broad that builds on power agressively, but smoothly as you roll open the throttle to appeal to a wide range of riders and easy to ride for anly level of ability like the old 200-2001 piston port engine did.
2. Honda would have to think long and hard about the target market, simplicity, and cost, but there might be a trade off of the newer technology and what the market really wants and values. Fuel injection and a hydraulic clutch and perhaps a programmable ignition would have to be carefully considered.
3. The KTM 250SX is already at 213lbs (advertised dry weight)! The new CR250 should be 215lbs or lighter. A 210lb CR250 would make me giggle like a school girl smile I would prefer R&D money/ manufacturing cost be spent on a lighter bike over fancy electronics in the theme of keeping things simple for the back yard mechanic.
4. The 2000-2001 CR's and the 2009-2012 CRF's had some of the best looking plastic. I am not to keen about the Husky-like plastic on the 2013 CRF450. Let's keep the plastic simple for a good looking bike instead of the sharp, pointed angles that make some of the recent bikes look cartoonish. I like the way Kawasaki keeps it's plastic simple and always has a good looking bike that appeals to everyone.
5. A sticker price of $5,900 would help keep the sport/ past time main stream and within reach of the weekend warrior, but I realize KTM has already set a precedent, so a slightly more competitive (than KTM's $7k) price of $6,900 would be more realistic and still sell a lot of bikes.

For those also hoping for a new CR250 2-stroke, anything you would like to add to the wish list?

mike

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3/17/2013 11:15 AM

They won't.

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3/17/2013 11:20 AM

Would love it, but no chance, honda killed the 2 stroke

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3/17/2013 11:24 AM

why not just buy a brand that supports them now and hasnt' faltered on support?
ktm, yamaha, tm. A NEW TM or KTM will be me next choice of bike, currently 2009 ktm 125

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3/17/2013 11:36 AM

Long time no see
How goes it?
Adapting to life back here well?

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3/17/2013 11:53 AM
Edited Date/Time: 3/17/2013 11:55 AM

They are in business to make money .... If there was a projectable profit I am sure they would produce what you are asking for just like...ktm, tm, huskey, and Yamaha still do! In other words why not just go buy one of those and support the manufacturers that support your niche of the sport instead of pining away for something that will never ever happen.... Face it you're in the friend zone with Honda when there are other hot chicks out there that want you to ride them... You have to admit that was an awesome analogy!

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Don’t piss off the old people - the older they get the less “life in prison” is a deterrent for them!

2020.5 KTM 450 SXF FE
2006 KX250

3/17/2013 12:28 PM

flarider wrote:

Long time no see
How goes it?
Adapting to life back here well?

Hey FLArider.. I have been lurking on this site for years and back in the US for a while now, although I still spend about a month of every year in Japan. I play more with a race car I have and not riding as much these last few years, although I shipped my bikes (2 strokes!) back from Japan and they are just sitting in the garage next to an 800hp early Camaro toy that occupies most of my weekend time now. But being off the bikes is making me fat! A new CR250 would probably get me back to the track smile

The sport has been dying in Japan too. A greater percentage of girls riding the little MXers relative to guys on big bikes these days. Perhaps this is related to the cost of the big 4 strokes.

mike

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3/17/2013 12:36 PM

bvm111 wrote:

They are in business to make money .... If there was a projectable profit I am sure they would produce what you are asking for just like...ktm, tm, huskey, and Yamaha still do! In other words why not just go buy one of those and support the manufacturers that support your niche of the sport instead of pining away for something that will never ever happen.... Face it you're in the friend zone with Honda when there are other hot chicks out there that want you to ride them... You have to admit that was an awesome analogy!

So you are assuming that a big corporation is always rationale and perhaps Honda is looking at a different business case than KTM? Not always the case.. busines decisions in big corporations can also be driven by the egos or mistaken assumptions of top executives and lower level managers dare not challenge the opinions of the top executives. The politics of a big corporation are no different than a King and his court 800 years ago in many companies. This never stops surprising me. Honda wants to be the technological leader but is loosing it to KTM and others, but it is also still a market leader that gives signals to the other companies. If there is a new CR250, Honda would get a jump on the others, but Suzuki, Kawasaki, and Yamaha would probably be quick to follow with modern 2 strokes of their own.. and we would be all the happier for it with more people coming back to the sport.

mike

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3/17/2013 12:45 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/18/2013 6:29 PM

Cr125R and 250R were the most popular MX bikes in history. Its a shame really. Now they offer us glorified dual sport bikes to race. Imo it would be a good move on there part, Im sure they would sell as many 2 Strokes as they imported. This is actually a good thing for the Euro brands, absentee Honda.

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3/17/2013 12:50 PM

rocketsocks26 wrote:

Would love it, but no chance, honda killed the 2 stroke

Wrong, that would be Yamaha that did that.

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Most excellent

3/17/2013 12:51 PM

X-RACER wrote:

Cr125R and 250R were the most popular MX bikes in history. Its a shame really. Now they offer us glorified dual sport bikes to race. Imo it would be a good move on there part, Im sure they would sell as many 2 Strokes as they imported. This is actually a good thing for the Euro brands, absentee Honda.

wassat
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3/17/2013 1:11 PM

I absolutely think there is a market there for Honda. The problem from the manufacturer perspective is it probably takes away from CRF sales. I'd like to think the overall sales numbers could be greater with a less expensive 2-stroke though. I have no inside information whatsoever, but I don't think this is a far fetched idea. Look at the sales of the existing 2-strokes, they all seem to sell as many as they make. That tells me there is a viable market.

If they did, my wishes would be:
Light
Not too tall (bikes are really tall right now)
Smooth power (NOT the '04 CR-250 engine!)
Make it look similar to an '82 factory bike!

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3/17/2013 1:12 PM

X-RACER wrote:

Cr125R and 250R were the most popular MX bikes in history. Its a shame really. Now they offer us glorified dual sport bikes to race. Imo it would be a good move on there part, Im sure they would sell as many 2 Strokes as they imported. This is actually a good thing for the Euro brands, absentee Honda.

Photo
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3/17/2013 1:18 PM

bvm111 wrote:

They are in business to make money .... If there was a projectable profit I am sure they would produce what you are asking for just like...ktm, tm, huskey, and Yamaha still do! In other words why not just go buy one of those and support the manufacturers that support your niche of the sport instead of pining away for something that will never ever happen.... Face it you're in the friend zone with Honda when there are other hot chicks out there that want you to ride them... You have to admit that was an awesome analogy!

I will admit that that was an awesome analogy.

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3/17/2013 1:23 PM

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3/17/2013 1:26 PM

PRM31 wrote:

I absolutely think there is a market there for Honda. The problem from the manufacturer perspective is it probably takes away from CRF sales. I'd like to think the overall sales numbers could be greater with a less expensive 2-stroke though. I have no inside information whatsoever, but I don't think this is a far fetched idea. Look at the sales of the existing 2-strokes, they all seem to sell as many as they make. That tells me there is a viable market.

If they did, my wishes would be:
Light
Not too tall (bikes are really tall right now)
Smooth power (NOT the '04 CR-250 engine!)
Make it look similar to an '82 factory bike!

You were doing well right up until that last line......................living in the past.

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3/17/2013 1:29 PM

I agree that the manufacturers are in the business to make money, that said I can't imagine them not making a buttload of money by making two strokes again. Just ask KTM if the risk vs. reward debate is varifiable against losing 4 stroke sales against a new model. That would constitute a definate "Spoke with my wallet" post from me..

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3/17/2013 1:30 PM

Lone Wolf wrote:

You were doing well right up until that last line......................living in the past.

I won't deny it! I'd want an updated version of an '81 RM-125 if I really had a choice! I'm not against the modern look, and if they met the first three requirements I'd be a customer whether it looked retro or new.

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3/17/2013 1:32 PM

rocketsocks26 wrote:

Would love it, but no chance, honda killed the 2 stroke

CaptainRon126 wrote:

Wrong, that would be Yamaha that did that.

What killed the 2-stroke was the manafacturers' insistance, don't recall if it was Honda or Yamaha, that for racing, the 4-stroke be given a huge engine size/ CC advantage to what was allowed for a 2-stroke racing in the same class.

At the same or even similar engine size, there is no way even the latest 4-stroke technology can keep up with the old 2 stroke!!! They had essentially doubled the allowable engine size of the 4 stroke relative to what is allowed for a 2 stroke to make the 4 stroke boat anchors competitive.


mike
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3/17/2013 1:34 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/17/2013 1:37 PM

PRM31 wrote:

I absolutely think there is a market there for Honda. The problem from the manufacturer perspective is it probably takes away from CRF sales. I'd like to think the overall sales numbers could be greater with a less expensive 2-stroke though. I have no inside information whatsoever, but I don't think this is a far fetched idea. Look at the sales of the existing 2-strokes, they all seem to sell as many as they make. That tells me there is a viable market.

If they did, my wishes would be:
Light
Not too tall (bikes are really tall right now)
Smooth power (NOT the '04 CR-250 engine!)
Make it look similar to an '82 factory bike!

Lone Wolf wrote:

You were doing well right up until that last line......................living in the past.

PRM31 wrote:

I won't deny it! I'd want an updated version of an '81 RM-125 if I really had a choice! I'm not against the modern look, and if they met the first three requirements I'd be a customer whether it looked retro or new.

Haha. Fair enough. My Dad had an '81 RM125 (in '81). He always says what a great bike it was.................... for its time.

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3/17/2013 1:36 PM

Tokyo_Tiddler wrote: What killed the 2-stroke was the manafacturers' insistance, don't recall if it was Honda or Yamaha, that for racing, the 4-stroke be given a huge engine size/ CC advantage to what was allowed for a 2-stroke racing in the same class.

At the same or even similar engine size, there is no way even the latest 4-stroke technology can keep up with the old 2 stroke!!! They had essentially doubled the allowable engine size of the 4 stroke relative to what is allowed for a 2 stroke to make the 4 stroke boat anchors competitive.


mike

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3/17/2013 1:53 PM

It was around 2002 or 2003 at a popular motocross course in Fukushima, Japan that had a long steep uphill straight after the start. It was a just for fun race and there were a few factory guys there, too. A couple of Suzuki guys rolled a 1980's brand new never ridden stock RM250 out of their van. I imagine it was sitting in the back of the Suzuki factory warehouse all these years. In the 250 class, I got a good start and I have never had another bike pull my modded CR250 the way that old stock RM did. I thought my engine was the bomb but that stock production RM that was at least 15 years older than my bike motored right by me up the hill. I was impressed. I am trying to remember what year RM250 it was, perhaps 1982-1987, but it had two-tone blue stripes on the tank. What a 2-stroke motor!

My point is that that with regard to the motors, the manufacturers have been selling us "new technology" and making us think we are faster when a lot of the old stuff is still very competitive... and a heck of a lot cheaper and more fun!

mike

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3/17/2013 1:59 PM

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3/17/2013 2:08 PM

rocketsocks26 wrote:

Would love it, but no chance, honda killed the 2 stroke

CaptainRon126 wrote:

Wrong, that would be Yamaha that did that.

Tokyo_Tiddler wrote: What killed the 2-stroke was the manafacturers' insistance, don't recall if it was Honda or Yamaha, that for racing, the 4-stroke be given a huge engine size/ CC advantage to what was allowed for a 2-stroke racing in the same class.

At the same or even similar engine size, there is no way even the latest 4-stroke technology can keep up with the old 2 stroke!!! They had essentially doubled the allowable engine size of the 4 stroke relative to what is allowed for a 2 stroke to make the 4 stroke boat anchors competitive.


mike

This is where you are mistaken. Even with giving away 10lbs or more in weight, a 4 stroke is still the fastest way around a track. There is no magic displacement that would suddenly make a 2 stroke competitive against a modern 450, at least not with current 2 stroke dirtbike engine technology.

And you can't genuinely claim that 2 stroke dirtbike engines are "modern". The only major development in 2 strokes in 30 years was the exhaust power valve. Bringing back the 2 stroke is not going to make Honda the "technological leader".

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3/17/2013 2:24 PM
Edited Date/Time: 3/17/2013 2:49 PM

I am not sure if I would even buy a new 2 stroke if they came with direct injection and a cone pipe stock. 4 strokes are just that much better on a MX track. Off road is a differernt story. Oh and by most standards I am an old guy.

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3/17/2013 2:24 PM

The only reason I think FI would be a good thing for the smokers is that the treehugger mentality of the people in charge might let them compete fairly for the first time ever. The bikes does not need to get more complicated and expensive.
I promised myself some years back not to buy a new bike until honda released an updated 2-stroke, but I'm getting tired of waiting. I'm slowly warming up to the thought of buying one of those orange bikes, even though I really don't like them.
I'm never going to be the fastest guy on the track, and 2-strokes are way more fun to ride, easier and cheaper to rebuild and maintain so at least for the time being I don't want a 4-stroke.
just my 0.13 SEK

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I like Honda and 2-strokes. Bad combo.

3/17/2013 3:06 PM

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bd

3/17/2013 3:17 PM

Stock iCat

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3/17/2013 3:25 PM

I've always dreamed of having a car like this!

Do you know if it comes with rack-n-peanut steering?

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3/17/2013 3:33 PM

The KTM is a better bike than what you described above.. Swallow your pride and get one..

I had an 2011 250SX and it was awesome.

Have a 2012 300XC now, it's awesome too, although I'm considering going back to the SX just for fun factor..

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