2001 CR250 $pecial Restoration Part II - Recreation of a 1999-2000 Japan Honda Factory RC250M

9/28/2019 8:07pm
The latest addition to the build is an almost perfectly new HRC seat used by the Honda Japan factory team in 2000. It is not a replica. The original parts tag is still affixed underneath and gives info such as the foam density used, foam thickness, date it was made, etc. You will notice that the sticker includes the HRC code "E7HP" which is the exact same code on my HRC pipe which is the HRC designation for this 2000 model RC250M.

Many HRC parts are not made by Honda themselves, but made by special design shops to HRC's specifications. The HRC seat was made TS Tech Inc. which I believe designs car interiors and auto upholstery. The HRC triple clamps, clutch perches, shift lever, etc., are all made by other companies for Honda. This is not an uncommon approach in Japan where major companies have many parts made by other companies who made the parts specifically for the Japan giants. This puts more financial risk on the other companies who make the investments in tooling and get hit during economic downturns, but do well during good economic times manufacturing on behalf of the manufacturing giants.

Unlike the OEM seat which has two separate steel tabs riveted to the seat frame to mount the seat to the subframe, the HRC seat has a special steel one-piece bracket to mount the seat. The HRC seat uses the OEM seat materials, but where the red and black vinyl are thermally sealed on the OEM seat, on the HRC seat they are sewn together.

If it’s an RC250M, it has to say “RC” somewhere! Smile







9
9/28/2019 8:22pm Edited Date/Time 9/28/2019 8:25pm
Here is the same seat on RC250Ms at the Japan Nationals. The 1999 RC seat used a red top (like the 2000 OEM CR) and the 2000 RC seat used a black top (like the 2001 OEM CR)





6
Chance1216
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9/28/2019 11:06pm
That's an awesome seat for an awesome bike. Seems like the more you post the more I learn. The pic of the 99 bike has some pretty interesting vents cut in compared to what they did for the 2001 RC 250.
9/28/2019 11:21pm
Chance1216 wrote:
That's an awesome seat for an awesome bike. Seems like the more you post the more I learn. The pic of the 99 bike has some...
That's an awesome seat for an awesome bike. Seems like the more you post the more I learn. The pic of the 99 bike has some pretty interesting vents cut in compared to what they did for the 2001 RC 250.
The MotoRoman bikes also cut a different style of vents in their side plates. It was the thing to do in those days.

The Shop

9/29/2019 6:30pm
One of the things that was bugging me was the big gap left between the right grip and throttle housing when switching from the OEM grips to Renthal grips. The OEM Honda throttle grip slips over a ridge on the throttle tube, however, this ridge becomes a limiter for how far you can slide on the Renthal grip. Not only is it unsightly, but it also puts your right hand farther away from the bike center than the left hand. I wonder how many guys actually ride like this when using Renthal grips on OEM Honda throttle tubes.



The fix I hoped to use was a Pro Circuit Teflon coated billet aluminum throttle tube. It looked nice although a bit pricey. This billet throttle tube doesn't have the ridge so you can slide the Renthal grip on a far as you like.




I ran into a problem, where the throttle would work fine until I tightened up the housing screws whereupon the throttle was very hard to turn. The tolerances of the Pro Circuit tube in the OEM throttle housing were too tight. I spent half a day trying to figure you where it was rubbing and sanding to get a free spinning throttle, but was not successful.

Anyone ever run into this before? I just bought 2 other brands of billet throttle tubes to see if I have better luck with them.

Helda
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9/29/2019 7:35pm
The latest addition to the build is an almost perfectly new HRC seat used by the Honda Japan factory team in 2000. It is not a...
The latest addition to the build is an almost perfectly new HRC seat used by the Honda Japan factory team in 2000. It is not a replica. The original parts tag is still affixed underneath and gives info such as the foam density used, foam thickness, date it was made, etc. You will notice that the sticker includes the HRC code "E7HP" which is the exact same code on my HRC pipe which is the HRC designation for this 2000 model RC250M.

Many HRC parts are not made by Honda themselves, but made by special design shops to HRC's specifications. The HRC seat was made TS Tech Inc. which I believe designs car interiors and auto upholstery. The HRC triple clamps, clutch perches, shift lever, etc., are all made by other companies for Honda. This is not an uncommon approach in Japan where major companies have many parts made by other companies who made the parts specifically for the Japan giants. This puts more financial risk on the other companies who make the investments in tooling and get hit during economic downturns, but do well during good economic times manufacturing on behalf of the manufacturing giants.

Unlike the OEM seat which has two separate steel tabs riveted to the seat frame to mount the seat to the subframe, the HRC seat has a special steel one-piece bracket to mount the seat. The HRC seat uses the OEM seat materials, but where the red and black vinyl are thermally sealed on the OEM seat, on the HRC seat they are sewn together.

If it’s an RC250M, it has to say “RC” somewhere! Smile







Sweet mother of god
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XC706
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9/29/2019 8:58pm
One of the things that was bugging me was the big gap left between the right grip and throttle housing when switching from the OEM grips...
One of the things that was bugging me was the big gap left between the right grip and throttle housing when switching from the OEM grips to Renthal grips. The OEM Honda throttle grip slips over a ridge on the throttle tube, however, this ridge becomes a limiter for how far you can slide on the Renthal grip. Not only is it unsightly, but it also puts your right hand farther away from the bike center than the left hand. I wonder how many guys actually ride like this when using Renthal grips on OEM Honda throttle tubes.



The fix I hoped to use was a Pro Circuit Teflon coated billet aluminum throttle tube. It looked nice although a bit pricey. This billet throttle tube doesn't have the ridge so you can slide the Renthal grip on a far as you like.




I ran into a problem, where the throttle would work fine until I tightened up the housing screws whereupon the throttle was very hard to turn. The tolerances of the Pro Circuit tube in the OEM throttle housing were too tight. I spent half a day trying to figure you where it was rubbing and sanding to get a free spinning throttle, but was not successful.

Anyone ever run into this before? I just bought 2 other brands of billet throttle tubes to see if I have better luck with them.

I believe Cole Seely just ran into the same issue with the PC throttle tube on the CR 250 he is building for Straight Rhythm. He has a vlog on the build.
9/29/2019 11:10pm
OEM honda trottle tube has always been like that with renthal grips. Odd but i guess renthal grips are shorter in some fashion. I've had the same issue since 93 cr250. Still love the look though. Dig your bike Mike, keep it coming
1
9/30/2019 2:58am Edited Date/Time 9/30/2019 3:09am
XC706 wrote:
I believe Cole Seely just ran into the same issue with the PC throttle tube on the CR 250 he is building for Straight Rhythm. He...
I believe Cole Seely just ran into the same issue with the PC throttle tube on the CR 250 he is building for Straight Rhythm. He has a vlog on the build.
Thanks for bring this to my attention. So it wasn't just me.. I ended up sanding the heck out of my throttle housing too trying to make it work, so I now have to buy an all new OEM housing. Thanks PC! SadSadSad

There is also a "California Proposition 65" cancer warning on this PC part (probably because of the Teflon) :O

I have TUSK and a Motion Pro tubes on the way. We will have a nice working throttle in the end with no unsightly gap with the Renthal grip.
10/4/2019 6:50pm
I never got the PC throttle tube issue resolved, but did discover that the newer oem replacement throttle housing has more room so it doesn't stop the throttle from turning when you tighten the housing bolts. It won't work at all with original housings made by Honda 15 or more years ago. Even when I got it to turns, I did find that when I put a slight outward pressure on the grip, there was a metal to metal squeal due to the ridge on the housing being too thick and contacting the side of the groove on the housing.

Next I tried a Tusk billet throttle tube and that had less issue and it was happy even with the original throttle housing. It has this neat little nylon ring on the inside of the tube that helps it turn smoothly. However, there was one small issue.. if you put a little pressure on the grip towards that housing, it would briefly catch on something and make a little clicking noise that could also be felt. Nothing dangerous, but noticeable and I am fussy about my throttle feel.

Tusk throttle tube;


I decided that nothing feels as good as the oem nylon throttle tube and decided to remove the offending ridge. First I snipper of the much of the ridge with tin snips and then went over to my bench grinder with a 6" grinding stone and slowly and carefully rotated the tube on the spinning stone (slow to moderate speed) until the ridge was gone and completely flush. Came out nice and clean..



Here are the before and after pics.. initially with the Renthal grip installed on the oem throttle tube and you can see in the picture how the oem tube has a ridge the doesn’t allow the grip to quite go all the way on and leaves an unsightly gap. I wonder how many guys ride the bike like this since your right hand would be spaced further out than your left.


Here is the finished job.. the unsightly gap is gone, the grip now is evenly spaced with the left side, and nothing feels as good and as smooth as the nylon oem throttle tube. If I did this to begin with, I would have saved myself $150 and 2 days of frustration.





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Chance1216
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10/4/2019 9:36pm
After we conversed about the gap on the throttle tube, I can't quit looking at it. I think I may have to follow your lead and go with a nylon one. I have an aluminum throttle
tube made by Pro Taper. There's no binding but, there's still the gap. It has the ridge that keeps the grip from moving as close as yours is now to the throttle housing.

1
10/4/2019 9:46pm Edited Date/Time 10/4/2019 9:47pm
Chance1216 wrote:
After we conversed about the gap on the throttle tube, I can't quit looking at it. I think I may have to follow your lead and...
After we conversed about the gap on the throttle tube, I can't quit looking at it. I think I may have to follow your lead and go with a nylon one. I have an aluminum throttle
tube made by Pro Taper. There's no binding but, there's still the gap. It has the ridge that keeps the grip from moving as close as yours is now to the throttle housing.

More importantly, it is the only way the grip will be properly spaced out from the center of the bike at the same distance as the left side. I measured and now its perfect.
2
10/10/2019 7:43pm
Hi Mike You interested in selling the first factory exhaust pipe you found? Let me know. Thanks William
10/11/2019 11:09pm
Hi Mike You interested in selling the first factory exhaust pipe you found? Let me know. Thanks William
Just sent you an email, William.

mike
10/14/2019 7:40pm Edited Date/Time 10/14/2019 7:55pm
Here is a video shot of Cole Seely pointing out where the problem is with the PC throttle tube (the 2nd groove that fits into the slot in the throttle housing). I had been trying to figure out the same issue with the tube when someone mentioned that Seely mentioned the same problem in VLOG. I had contacted Pro Circuit. Shit happens so I wasn't upset and happy to explain the issue. The first two people I spoke to at PC were quite pleasant and said they were looking at it internally. I suppose it was escalated through the ranks and the person from Pro Circuit that called me back in the end had quite a surprising way of dealing with his customers. First he claimed I was using an aftermarket throttle housing because mine is silver and he claimed the 2001 CR250 housings were black. I said the 2000-2007 CR250 throttle housings have always been silver with a black rubber boot over them. Then he said that I was the only one that ever had a problem with the PC-02 tube. I said that within the same week, Cole Seely mentioned the exact same problem with the same part. To that the Pro Circuit person said; "No, he didn't". I thought perhaps he may have misheard me so I repeated it again; "Coley Seely just mentioned the exact same problem in his video log". This Pro Circuit employee repeated a 2nd time; " No, he didn't" as if negating everything I said would make it easy to dismiss me. I won't mention his name, but unless he gets customer service training fast, it will hurt their business.


Over the past week, I was able to pick up a couple of the old style NOS Renthal bar pads. They are a little wider and the lettering is not slanted like the latest versions from Renthal. These old pads are getting harder to find in good condition.



I though I was done with this build, but at the least, I have decided I need to replace the triple clamps with a set of HRC clamps that are period correct. The HRC clamps from 2001 and earlier have chamfered edges, while the newer style HRC triple clamps have rounded edges. Here is a pic of the chamfered edge on the top clamp..


Here is how the bike sits now with the recent changes..







One of the challenges with this build is that many pics of the actual bike raced in Japan have either been deleted, reduced to thumbnails quality, or just plain poor definition. Just recently, 4 videos were posted on YouTube that cover a bit of the 2000 Japan MX nationals together with a lot of coverage of Ryuichiro "Hammer" Takahama and "Yoshie" Atsuta racing and play riding on their RC250Ms. Japan used green number plate backgrounds in 1999 and red backgrounds in 2000 for this model RC250M. Here are some screenshots;







Here is the link to one of the 4 videos..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaCcKrxT6go&t=400s&pbjreload=10
2
Chance1216
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10/14/2019 8:38pm Edited Date/Time 10/14/2019 9:00pm
I truly think your build is one of the best. Your overall quality and attention to detail really shines through. This isn't anything typical. This is the first bike I came across here on Vital. Awhile back, I Googled factory replica 01 CR 250 pics and I think I said JESUS FN CHRIST. I've learned quite a bit about the second Gen Hondas just reading your threads(thanks).
It's a shame Pro Circuit had the attitude they did toward you regarding the tube. I've had similar issues with other companies and parts claimed to fit an 01 and didn't. Trial and error I guess. Just sucks cause bike parts aren't cheap. Cool video.
Last but not least, if these build threads could be added to the HOF yours should be in it. Not only have you covered the finer details with great pics, you've also shared a lot of history. Sorry for the long winded message. I've just really appreciated this build from day one
2
burn1986
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10/14/2019 9:45pm Edited Date/Time 10/14/2019 9:47pm
Wow just wow. I’m amazed that you got everything so right. Those seat covers are a trip, meaning, they are a work of art. Crazy cool!
10/15/2019 5:56pm
Thanks Burndog, Chance and Burn1986. I hope other have enjoyed the journey of the build, too. Sure looks nice sitting in the garage next to the rest of the collection.
11/2/2019 1:13pm Edited Date/Time 11/2/2019 1:16pm
A set of Showa works forks off a 99/00 Japan RC250M and HRC triple clamps that I just received today. The forks have magnesium fork caps and CNC lugs with a floating axle. The lower fork tubes have titanium nitrate coating with a copper color. The black/ silver HRC clamp combo was used in 1999 in Japan on the 2nd gen Honda and in 2000 in the US. I will re-anodize the clamps a bordeaux red color like the Japan team used in 2000 and the US team used in 2001. The triple clamps have a titanium steering stem.







Notice how the front brake disc cover attached to this long protruding mount on the fork lug.. while a second disc cover bolt screws into the side of the axle itself.... very different mounting than the oem disc cover. In fact, a lot of special parts are needed to mount this fork on the bike. Special steering bearings and seals that are not easily sourced outside HRC are needed for the titanium steering stem which is narrower in diameter than the oem stem, The works forks require a different brake caliper adapter and a different axle (oem axle will not work). The HRC titanium triple clamp bolts are much shorter than oem and shorter than one would expect.

10
11/8/2019 11:14am Edited Date/Time 11/8/2019 11:50am
A lot more HRC parts are starting to come in so there will be lots of new updates to the bike. I had a lot of very nice replica parts on the bike initially which have all been pretty much replaced by genuine HRC parts at this point. Among the latest parts are this genuine HRC titanium air filter bolt and exhaust valve spacer. This filter bolt is correct for the year now,


Notice how the titanium fork lug bolts are completely hollow. It is the only completely hollow bolts on this RC250M.


The HRC front axle is a “floating axle “ set up that is part titanium and part steel. A steel axle threads into a titanium tube which is clamped in the left side fork lug. Very different from the oem setup. Notice the small threaded hole on the outside end of the front axle holder. This is where the HRC plastic brake disc cover bolts to.




The dark-reddish copper colored titanium nitrate coating that HRC used in the lower tubes on the works Showa's is certainly nice to look at.


8
mxav8r
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11/8/2019 11:46am
Just AWESOME! Thank you for such detailed description and explaining the whole process. Just love all details.
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dl117
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11/8/2019 1:03pm
not a Honda guy, but this thing is an absolute piece of art.
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wicksy85
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11/8/2019 1:10pm
Holy bike porn at its finest right there, the detail and knowledge is just mind blowing on this build!!
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ledger
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11/8/2019 3:44pm
Hey Tokyo, the forks are gorgeous. I gotta admit that I've never heard of a floating front axle...HRC is phenomenal.
1
11/8/2019 9:39pm
ledger wrote:
Hey Tokyo, the forks are gorgeous. I gotta admit that I've never heard of a floating front axle...HRC is phenomenal.
Didn't make it up, I promise Smile although the axle doesn't actually float. Unlike a standard fork, the axle/ lugs are not pulled/ torqued toward each other when the nut is tightened. Some of the mountain bike fork manufacturers refer to their forks having a semi or full floating front axle.
1
11/9/2019 6:18am
Sweet catch, I'm drooling over here. Have been away on project,work. Those must be Wardo's? Killer set of forks,once again. Your bike is turning out so top notch. Better keep book in the back of your mind, too much information passing by. Long in the days of two stroke engines,is how it read. The history! Thanks Mike on history lesson.
1
11/9/2019 2:44pm Edited Date/Time 11/9/2019 2:52pm
Here are 2 different brake caliper adapters that only work with the works Showa fork bolt spacing. One fits a 260mm disc and the other fits a 270mm disc. Notice the titanium slider pins on both brackets. Either a works or OEM caliper will bolt to the bracket, but the bracket only fits the works forks.


The HRC titanium triple clamps bolts are very short at just 27mm long. The OEM bolts are much longer.


I also came across this rare HRC billet front brake line guide clamp with Ti bolts. It was used on the late 1990s RCs and early 2000s CRF factory machines even though on the machine I am building, Japan HRC used the oem clamp. I had never seen one before until a friend showed me some pics of them on a few factory Honda's. It is a small piece, but something that is hard to come by as HRC only used them in Japan, I believe.





The HRC exhaust valve cover spacer is quite thick and just barely fits behind the exhaust pipe. They did come in different thicknesses to help tune the power delivery. The thicker the spacer, the smoother the hit and with a broader power band/ increased low end. This one is genuine HRC, but Corné over at Vintage Honda can have an exact copy machined for you if you would like one for your build. Corne is a member on VitalMX.



4
11/9/2019 2:49pm Edited Date/Time 11/9/2019 3:06pm
Sweet catch, I'm drooling over here. Have been away on project,work. Those must be Wardo's? Killer set of forks,once again. Your bike is turning out so...
Sweet catch, I'm drooling over here. Have been away on project,work. Those must be Wardo's? Killer set of forks,once again. Your bike is turning out so top notch. Better keep book in the back of your mind, too much information passing by. Long in the days of two stroke engines,is how it read. The history! Thanks Mike on history lesson.
Thanks William. I am learning a lot more as I go along and I thought it would be useful to pass on some of the details. The history of these old HRC racing parts is interesting for some of us who dreamed about these machines in our youth, as owning one was out of the question.
2
Chance1216
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11/9/2019 3:03pm Edited Date/Time 11/9/2019 3:03pm
Sweet catch, I'm drooling over here. Have been away on project,work. Those must be Wardo's? Killer set of forks,once again. Your bike is turning out so...
Sweet catch, I'm drooling over here. Have been away on project,work. Those must be Wardo's? Killer set of forks,once again. Your bike is turning out so top notch. Better keep book in the back of your mind, too much information passing by. Long in the days of two stroke engines,is how it read. The history! Thanks Mike on history lesson.
Thanks William. I am learning a lot more as I go along and I thought it would be useful to pass on some of the details...
Thanks William. I am learning a lot more as I go along and I thought it would be useful to pass on some of the details. The history of these old HRC racing parts is interesting for some of us who dreamed about these machines in our youth, as owning one was out of the question.
Memoirs of Tokyo Tiddler. 😉
2

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