2 stroke vs 4 stroke :)

AJ
Posts
921
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Lowell, IN US
7/21/2009 10:05pm
lol! well i was MXing this weekend,
but yeah it's hard to beat the schedule of a HS day..

also i agree with youand think some taiwian or chinese co
will kick some butt eventually,, if thet get past emmisions and some other regs.
i saw the closest knockoff of a CRF250R in koln last year,
unreal
retail was like 2600 or less.,.

not saying its a good or bad thing,,
but just like Kia, one iof them will learn to better the current product,
and it wouldnt take but a genuine interest in the marketplace ,,and effort to send the current struggling OEM's scampering ..
the big hurfdle fo ran aspiring co,, isnt even product quality,that can be addressed in one model year?
its a strong distrbution and dealer network .

in this current market i dont see anyone jumping in there,,
but if it returns a bit,, i wouldnt be shocked to see a challenge to the big 4 (5)
from somewhere like india/taiwan/china





wardy
Posts
1763
Joined
3/31/2008
Location
US
7/21/2009 10:07pm
Bulldog wrote:
There is a bright future for 2-Strokes in America. This is evident if OEMs would look outside of California. Manufacturers need to look to the east...
There is a bright future for 2-Strokes in America. This is evident if OEMs would look outside of California. Manufacturers need to look to the east coast and to "offroad racing" to see what they are riding. The majority - 2-Strokes! This past weekend at the AMA National Hare Scramble (600+ in attendance) in New York, the top 4 Overall riders were on Yamaha YZ250s! A quick observation walking through the starting lines you could see about 80% of the bikes were 2-Strokes. At the National Hare Scramble in Indiana the 2-Stroke population was over 60%. Same thing at the Sumter National Enduro. Same thing at the National Enduro Series. In Virginia they are tracking the 2-Stroke vs. 4-Stroke population and the numbers are amazing: 67% smokers so far in 2009! Average turnout at a VCHSS event: 400+. Oh yeah, what about the GNCCs? Manufacturers force, well maybe "force" is too strong of a word, lets say encourage their top riders to race the 450s. Why not? If a 2-Stroke won at a GNCC what would the dealer sell on Monday? Remember the warehouses are full of 450 4-Strokes.

Not saying all things are bad for thumpers but what do the riders want.? IMO a reliable bike that the average Joe can purchase and maintain at a reasonable price. KTM experienced record 2-Stroke sales in 2008. Yamaha is seeing the same thing with the YZ125 and YZ250. If this was not true then why isn't KTM and Yamaha offering up big incentives to move these bikes?

Suzuki started to offer in 2008 an RM125XC and RM250XC in Great Britain. Asked if they would sell it in the states and the answer was "NO"! Why?

Haven't seen one?

http://www.suzuki-gb.co.uk/bikes/offroad/

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



The new RM125XC is derived from the hugely popular and established RM range and now includes added extras, providing a lightweight, manoeuvrable bike for Hare and Hound and Cross-Country riders. As used by Paul 'Fast Eddy" Edmondson in numerous 'Extreme' enduro events, it boasts all the standard features of the RM125. This model also has a larger capacity IMS fuel tank, UFO hand guards, a Regina O-ring chain and Relentless Fast Eddy replica graphics kit. The RM125XC really is one of the most cost effective ways to enjoy fun in the mud on two wheels.

What did Suzuki website say there? "The RM125XC really is one of the most cost effective ways to enjoy fun in the mud on two wheels."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What about the "NEW 2-Stroke "Green" technology?

http://www.twostrokeshop.com/...ES-STRIKE-BACK-1.jpg


I hope the manufacturers are listening. Rumors are swirling about a new Honda CR250 and a CR144. The CR144 is the answer to the 500+ 2007 Honda CR125s sitting in the Honda warehouses. With a new cylinder and bold new graphics Honda empties out their warehouses.

Lets not kill the 4-Stroke but it would be nice to be able to walk into your local dealer and be able to choose what you want versus buy what the manufacturers want you to buy.
i bet that bike could be shipped. wonder what that would cost out the door........ hmmmmmm

i got a thirteen year old itchin for a 1 2 5 .
race
Posts
3441
Joined
8/26/2006
Location
CA US
7/21/2009 10:11pm
bd wrote:
I will buy two stroke only.
kaboom645 wrote:
x2 Funny thing is, I not only feel faster, but I am considerably faster on a YZ250 over a YZ450. I finally had enough of my...
x2


Funny thing is, I not only feel faster, but I am considerably faster on a YZ250 over a YZ450. I finally had enough of my 450 last week and bought a used 09yz250 2 stroke. To me the 450 made me feel as though I was along for the ride, having difficulty making quick line changes, getting on top of bumps(instead of plowing through them), or trying to correct the bikes telemetry after cross rutting a jump face. Riding the bikes back to back(and the 250 was set up for 130lb rider not my fat 220lbs) I was able to instantly shave 3 sec. off my lap times at a local track.
What kind of prices you guys seeing on used YZ250s? ( smokers )

I was hoping they would go down the last few years but they still seem to be getting top dollar. I sure wish Yamaha offered a factory 300 kit like KTM does. Not sure I trust some of the aftermarket big bore cylinder stuff out there. Athena? Petersen? LA Sleeve?



JohnnyO_57
Posts
54
Joined
7/6/2009
Location
Pleasant Valley, NY US
7/22/2009 2:46am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 1:02am
AJ wrote:
lol! well i was MXing this weekend, but yeah it's hard to beat the schedule of a HS day.. also i agree with youand think some...
lol! well i was MXing this weekend,
but yeah it's hard to beat the schedule of a HS day..

also i agree with youand think some taiwian or chinese co
will kick some butt eventually,, if thet get past emmisions and some other regs.
i saw the closest knockoff of a CRF250R in koln last year,
unreal
retail was like 2600 or less.,.

not saying its a good or bad thing,,
but just like Kia, one iof them will learn to better the current product,
and it wouldnt take but a genuine interest in the marketplace ,,and effort to send the current struggling OEM's scampering ..
the big hurfdle fo ran aspiring co,, isnt even product quality,that can be addressed in one model year?
its a strong distrbution and dealer network .

in this current market i dont see anyone jumping in there,,
but if it returns a bit,, i wouldnt be shocked to see a challenge to the big 4 (5)
from somewhere like india/taiwan/china





It seems that the Chinese are already on the case.

"China’s state-owned giant Jialing Motorcycles has contracted New Zealand engine R&D firm Savice to develop a suite of new direct-injection sub-250cc two-strokes designed to leave Europe and Japan’s rivals feeling heavy and flat. And the deal is a two-way street, with Jialing manufacturing Savice’s line of Mira-branded two-stroke bikes (www.miramotorcycles.co.nz) with further projects already sketched out, taking advantage of Jialing’s huge economies of scale"

From MCN article "Two Strokes Strike Back".

While the current Chinese bikes leave a lot to be desired they, do learn from their mistakes. So we could see an inexpensive mx machine in the next few years.

The Shop

TomZ
Posts
707
Joined
7/24/2008
Location
West Bloomfield, MI US
Fantasy
4294th
7/22/2009 5:51am
Michael499 wrote:
My ten year old racer climbed off his 85 this weekend onto a friends 150. After 20 minutes he came back and said "sell the 85s"...
My ten year old racer climbed off his 85 this weekend onto a friends 150. After 20 minutes he came back and said "sell the 85s". After a few more 20-30 minute sessions he said he'd be willing to quit racing sanctioned events until he can race the 150 in a legal class. He loves racing, but loves the 150 more. He loved blitzing the whoops and the corner speed. He loved the bike and said he felt more in control.

Also, after 2010 doesn't Europe preclude most sales of two strokes? What about the U.S.? It seems that market forces and regs will make 2011 a year of more four stroke mini classes. Will the AMA be left behind? Will it be NMA and outlaw races? That seems to be what's happening.

Also, as someone old enough to know (and know better) about climbing on a 500 cc two stroke on an MX track. I don't know many people who can hang onto such a bike for more than a couple laps. A 450 had a rideability factor a 500 cc two stroke just doesn't have. Also, one can make a mistake or two on a 450 that would cause certain harm on the 500.

I'm not anti 500cc bikes. It's just that they are a niche market. I would love to see a lap time sheet for a dozen amateur riders of different ages and classes on a 500 cc two stroke and a 450 four stroke. I'm willing to bet the 500 cc lap times drop dramatically and the 450 stays more consistent. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that this phenomenon exists.

If I could still ride I would love to have a 500 for the fun factor, but for racing I'd take a 450 or a modified 250 four stroke. They just seem to be able to get traction on greased glass.
AJ wrote:
need to read what the TWMX riders thoughts were since he ha dseat time o nboth recently? the 500's have a lot ,more torqe and low...
need to read what the TWMX riders thoughts were since he ha dseat time o nboth recently?

the 500's have a lot ,more torqe and low end than a 450..
they dont have to be brutes.


that test bike was stock!!!
but the 500 cylinders can be ported fo5 buttery smooth power as well..

Yes those cylinders can be ported for that buttery smooth power. LOL

I had to do that...........................

500 class makin a comeback..................AJ started it.

250,450 and 2 stroke class at the nationals..............hhhmmmnnnnn
JW381
Posts
10643
Joined
7/21/2009
Location
Harrisburg, OR US
7/22/2009 6:11am
I'm not denying that 4-strokes are great bikes. I love my 250F and I feel a 250F is a very ideal motocross bike. My problem? COST! The price of a brand new 250 thumper is a little less than that of it's smoking cousin. But the cost of maintenance and aftermarket parts and replacements is just ridiculous. I've already sold one of my 250F's and my other is for sale right now as well. The next bike I will own is going to be a YZ250. Just for the simple fact that I won't go bankrupt if I have to do a top end on it!
cpj36
Posts
726
Joined
7/4/2009
Location
FL US
7/22/2009 6:18am
bd wrote:
I will buy two stroke only.
kaboom645 wrote:
x2 Funny thing is, I not only feel faster, but I am considerably faster on a YZ250 over a YZ450. I finally had enough of my...
x2


Funny thing is, I not only feel faster, but I am considerably faster on a YZ250 over a YZ450. I finally had enough of my 450 last week and bought a used 09yz250 2 stroke. To me the 450 made me feel as though I was along for the ride, having difficulty making quick line changes, getting on top of bumps(instead of plowing through them), or trying to correct the bikes telemetry after cross rutting a jump face. Riding the bikes back to back(and the 250 was set up for 130lb rider not my fat 220lbs) I was able to instantly shave 3 sec. off my lap times at a local track.
race wrote:
What kind of prices you guys seeing on used YZ250s? ( smokers ) I was hoping they would go down the last few years but they...
What kind of prices you guys seeing on used YZ250s? ( smokers )

I was hoping they would go down the last few years but they still seem to be getting top dollar. I sure wish Yamaha offered a factory 300 kit like KTM does. Not sure I trust some of the aftermarket big bore cylinder stuff out there. Athena? Petersen? LA Sleeve?



yeah, 2 stk prices are increasing. I could buy YZ250's when people still wanted them for $4850 OTD. I bought a YZ in 04 then moved to a CRF450 in 06. I got the CRF for $5500, by then it was hard to get much of a deal on 2 stks, almost like they didn't really want to sell the 2 stks. Needless to say, a $7500 dirt bike for the average guy is crazy.

The sport already loses the usual bracket of guys that grow up and have to buy their own stuff, start school or working ect. When I was starting college a new 250 was $3500, it was years before I could afford one again, now I see the kids that age with blown up 250f's they can't afford to fix.

I guess we come back after we can afford it again and bring our kids but now we're losing new kids because of $3500 50's, someone with a teen that wants to start is looking at 7K and everyone is determined to replace $2800 85's with $4500 150's. If you don't know anything about the sport and your 13 y/o wants to race, 7K for a 250f has got to be hard to justify.

Normal parents are astonished when they ask me how much these things are, so are their kids because they can't believe there's kids with multiple bikes when they're being told there is zero chance of getting a dirt bike. I remember how expensive a a CR80 seemed in 1985 at $999, it's hard to see where that extra 2K is at with the same bike today.
JW381
Posts
10643
Joined
7/21/2009
Location
Harrisburg, OR US
7/22/2009 6:25am
inflation only?

me thinks otherwise...
Larry
Posts
5094
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Fayetteville, GA US
7/22/2009 6:34am
AJ I have been reading Terry Goods book on the works bikes he has collected over the years (excellent read).
Its amazing at how all of the riders from that era talk about how much better the bikes became when the Japanese developed the light weight models of the early 70's.
Better handling, easier to ride and safer were the words they used to describe the light weight bikes.
I think you are also spot on on the future of dirt bikes from China and Korea. There is a lot of cheap technology out there that they can use and there is a strong (even though shrinking) dealer network out there desperate for lower cost products to sell.
I am old enough to remember when the riders of the day were saying the same thing about the Japanese bikes that they say about the other Asian bikes now. That all changed overnight from 71-73.
alphado
Posts
3283
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Erie, PA US
7/22/2009 7:05am
I have been enjoying the crap out of that KX250 that I bought. It doesn't happen very often for me, but it is an amazing feeling to nail a berm perfectly on the smoker.
jtomasik
Posts
12899
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
Golden, CO US
7/22/2009 7:18am
It amazes me how many people I know buy a dirt bike on credit. I can't imagine doing that...the first time I drop it, I'd shit my shorts.

A comment on the "unusable power" that the two strokes make, and a bit more on apples to apples:

Much of those "tweaked" power bands were because we were trying to wring every last horsepower out of a small engine. What happened was that the better the riders got, the more the industry would respond to their ability to use an engine that produced that "hit", and we ended up with bikes that were tweaked to where they pulled like raped apes.

Think about this...take one of those "peaky" 125's, right? Now, race those CRF150's against it. You can crank back on the power of that 125, flywheel the engine, smooth everything out, and you'll get one smooth bike that still outruns a CRF150.

Kids now "enter" the pros riding 250's. If they did the same with a two stroke, you could de-tune and flywheel that 250 2-stroke so much that it wouldn't have that "hit", would still out-pull the 4-strokes, last twice as long, and weigh a good 8 lbs. less, while costing less.

One of the deceptive things about the 500 is how smooth the beast is when making its torque and power. It feels like not much is happening when you ride it off idle. My CRF450 had that huge power hit every time the engine would fire, so it felt like it was a monster. But, the 500 is so smooth, it feels electric. It takes awhile to get used to the fact that even though it's smooth, you're acceleration as fast as, if not faster than, that old 450.
7/22/2009 7:19am
bd wrote:
I will buy two stroke only.
kaboom645 wrote:
x2 Funny thing is, I not only feel faster, but I am considerably faster on a YZ250 over a YZ450. I finally had enough of my...
x2


Funny thing is, I not only feel faster, but I am considerably faster on a YZ250 over a YZ450. I finally had enough of my 450 last week and bought a used 09yz250 2 stroke. To me the 450 made me feel as though I was along for the ride, having difficulty making quick line changes, getting on top of bumps(instead of plowing through them), or trying to correct the bikes telemetry after cross rutting a jump face. Riding the bikes back to back(and the 250 was set up for 130lb rider not my fat 220lbs) I was able to instantly shave 3 sec. off my lap times at a local track.
race wrote:
What kind of prices you guys seeing on used YZ250s? ( smokers ) I was hoping they would go down the last few years but they...
What kind of prices you guys seeing on used YZ250s? ( smokers )

I was hoping they would go down the last few years but they still seem to be getting top dollar. I sure wish Yamaha offered a factory 300 kit like KTM does. Not sure I trust some of the aftermarket big bore cylinder stuff out there. Athena? Petersen? LA Sleeve?



Locally the smokers are holding a high resale value for the most part, but nothing is selling due to the poor economy. I practically stole my 09. It has been raced 8 times(and no practice other than race day) and I lowballed the guy with a $2800 offer and he took it. The bike came with talon hubs, black dna wheels, full procircuit engine, PC pipe/silencer, V force reed cage, hinson basket, and tons of spare parts(wheels, pipes, etc). Appearanly the owners kid was offerded some sort of team green support, and was trying to get rid of the bikes quickly, so they could switch brands. I could have picked up his 125 for another grand, but I was already spread thin buying the 250, and at 220lbs, buying a 125 didnt seem like a good idea.
JW381
Posts
10643
Joined
7/21/2009
Location
Harrisburg, OR US
7/22/2009 7:28am
Kaboom: you are one lucky SOB.

can't sell my bikes for shit, and there's not a ton of great deals on yz250's either. The dealers understand that the people that want to buy them, are going to buy them regardless of the price because they just want a damn 250 2-stroke. A few used bikes for ok prices, but nothing amazing.

I envy you...
Matt Fisher
Posts
3947
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Visalia, CA US
Fantasy
1084th
7/22/2009 8:20am
bd wrote:
I will buy two stroke only.
kaboom645 wrote:
x2 Funny thing is, I not only feel faster, but I am considerably faster on a YZ250 over a YZ450. I finally had enough of my...
x2


Funny thing is, I not only feel faster, but I am considerably faster on a YZ250 over a YZ450. I finally had enough of my 450 last week and bought a used 09yz250 2 stroke. To me the 450 made me feel as though I was along for the ride, having difficulty making quick line changes, getting on top of bumps(instead of plowing through them), or trying to correct the bikes telemetry after cross rutting a jump face. Riding the bikes back to back(and the 250 was set up for 130lb rider not my fat 220lbs) I was able to instantly shave 3 sec. off my lap times at a local track.
race wrote:
What kind of prices you guys seeing on used YZ250s? ( smokers ) I was hoping they would go down the last few years but they...
What kind of prices you guys seeing on used YZ250s? ( smokers )

I was hoping they would go down the last few years but they still seem to be getting top dollar. I sure wish Yamaha offered a factory 300 kit like KTM does. Not sure I trust some of the aftermarket big bore cylinder stuff out there. Athena? Petersen? LA Sleeve?



Note the listed $600 includes porting. Not bad at all for a YZ300. Considering Eric's been one of the good guys in this business for a very long time, I'd say he's trustworthy.

Big Bore by Eric Gorr

I've had him do work for me more than once, and been totally happy every time.
catatonic
Posts
1575
Joined
3/20/2008
Location
Cape cod, MA US
7/22/2009 8:26am
R-acer wrote:
I LOVE 4 strokes. Love the way they make power, love the grunt, love the sound. Love how long they last inbetween rebuilds. I will never...
I LOVE 4 strokes. Love the way they make power, love the grunt, love the sound. Love how long they last inbetween rebuilds. I will never buy another 2 stroke.
how many 2 strokes have you owned???
davis224
Posts
6214
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Cornland, IL US
Fantasy
182nd
7/22/2009 9:20am
I rode a 09 yz250 on sunday, and didn't like it. It was on a fairly dry/packed track though, and the suspension was set up for a 220lb. rider. I'd really like to try it again on a loamy track. I rode my friends 04 KX250 on my track when it was loamy and loved it, almost didnt give him his bike back.
AJ
Posts
921
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Lowell, IN US
7/22/2009 9:33am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 1:02am
bd wrote:
I will buy two stroke only.
kaboom645 wrote:
x2 Funny thing is, I not only feel faster, but I am considerably faster on a YZ250 over a YZ450. I finally had enough of my...
x2


Funny thing is, I not only feel faster, but I am considerably faster on a YZ250 over a YZ450. I finally had enough of my 450 last week and bought a used 09yz250 2 stroke. To me the 450 made me feel as though I was along for the ride, having difficulty making quick line changes, getting on top of bumps(instead of plowing through them), or trying to correct the bikes telemetry after cross rutting a jump face. Riding the bikes back to back(and the 250 was set up for 130lb rider not my fat 220lbs) I was able to instantly shave 3 sec. off my lap times at a local track.
race wrote:
What kind of prices you guys seeing on used YZ250s? ( smokers ) I was hoping they would go down the last few years but they...
What kind of prices you guys seeing on used YZ250s? ( smokers )

I was hoping they would go down the last few years but they still seem to be getting top dollar. I sure wish Yamaha offered a factory 300 kit like KTM does. Not sure I trust some of the aftermarket big bore cylinder stuff out there. Athena? Petersen? LA Sleeve?



race we offer a 300 kit,. (295 on the YZ's)


very reliable and works amazingly well.


it is offered in a mx style or woods style(porting)



and yes its forward motion kits (Eric Gorr)
i've been working with Eric fir probably 20 years.


AJ
Posts
921
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Lowell, IN US
7/22/2009 9:42am
KX250AF-
last weekend- which is likely to have a 300cc kit on it soon..
(and a far better rider soon on it as well lol as knight wants to buy it)

Zildjian
Posts
267
Joined
6/28/2009
Location
Coeur d'Alene, ID US
7/22/2009 10:10am
Kaboom, I am jealous of that deal you got on the 09 250. Holy cow, nice score.
Tiki
Posts
10337
Joined
8/1/2006
Location
Corona, CA US
Fantasy
1774th
7/22/2009 10:16am
FYI new EPA regs in 2012 could be good, could be bad. Just sayin'
7/22/2009 12:22pm
I got really lucky.. At the last minute I decided to race a day race at my local track. While there I ran into an old riding buddy and began telling him how much I hated my 450. He told me he had a friend wanting to sell a 250 cheap. I asked how cheap b/c I was basically broke from the repair bill on my 450. He introduced me to the guy, and after a test ride I was sold so we made arrangements. I was actually planning to go and put a deposit down on a 2010 smoker the week after the race, but a barely used nicely built 09 for less than half of a new bike couldnt be passed up..
jndmx
Posts
9657
Joined
1/20/2008
Location
South Kingston, RI US
7/22/2009 12:41pm
We just put the Athena 144 kit on my sons 06 YZ125 and he is loving the difference in the power curve.
Little more bottom end cranking out of the turns and a much smoother power transition.

I highly recommend it for you 125 riders.
Arkmx
Posts
1625
Joined
10/6/2006
Location
35 miles west of PHX..., AZ US
7/22/2009 8:41pm
I still like my old Dinosaur 98 CR 250 with the LA Sleeve 330 kit...!

2003 photos....







Plenty of power...

Post a reply to: 2 stroke vs 4 stroke :)

The Latest