Posts
921
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Lowell, IN
US
Edited Date/Time
1/27/2012 6:22am
yes yes
i know the endless debate,LOL
ive never started a thread on it though.. !!
but it will continue to come up..
so for a new look into it ,
check out August Transworld MX ?
seems Lute was 3 seconds faster on the KX500AF,
a bike he is not used to,
than on his own bike (KX450F)
he FELT faster on the 450.however .
Transpoonders dont lie though.
we've had this repeated over and over for the last decade when
actual lap times are taken instead of just riding "impression"
granted it depends on the level of rider since throttle control is key.and conditioning
but dont doubt RC on a 500AF of either brand would be faster,,
Give fast guys a lighter, quicker handling and faster bike,
they go faster
it shouldnt be a surprise or much of a debate.
mx isnt rocket science.
i know the endless debate,LOL
ive never started a thread on it though.. !!
but it will continue to come up..
so for a new look into it ,
check out August Transworld MX ?
seems Lute was 3 seconds faster on the KX500AF,
a bike he is not used to,
than on his own bike (KX450F)
he FELT faster on the 450.however .
Transpoonders dont lie though.
we've had this repeated over and over for the last decade when
actual lap times are taken instead of just riding "impression"
granted it depends on the level of rider since throttle control is key.and conditioning
but dont doubt RC on a 500AF of either brand would be faster,,
Give fast guys a lighter, quicker handling and faster bike,
they go faster
it shouldnt be a surprise or much of a debate.
mx isnt rocket science.
if you got a 300cc to a 325cc 2stroke that would be right with a 450
that would be your normal rider at a normal local track
just what i think
now if you put bubba or RC on anything they would bet any one else on anything
but they dont apply
The Shop
hahahaha
Stroker vs the Smoker ride day ?
Some guys on proride did this and had a great turnout !
Also, after 2010 doesn't Europe preclude most sales of two strokes? What about the U.S.? It seems that market forces and regs will make 2011 a year of more four stroke mini classes. Will the AMA be left behind? Will it be NMA and outlaw races? That seems to be what's happening.
Also, as someone old enough to know (and know better) about climbing on a 500 cc two stroke on an MX track. I don't know many people who can hang onto such a bike for more than a couple laps. A 450 had a rideability factor a 500 cc two stroke just doesn't have. Also, one can make a mistake or two on a 450 that would cause certain harm on the 500.
I'm not anti 500cc bikes. It's just that they are a niche market. I would love to see a lap time sheet for a dozen amateur riders of different ages and classes on a 500 cc two stroke and a 450 four stroke. I'm willing to bet the 500 cc lap times drop dramatically and the 450 stays more consistent. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that this phenomenon exists.
If I could still ride I would love to have a 500 for the fun factor, but for racing I'd take a 450 or a modified 250 four stroke. They just seem to be able to get traction on greased glass.
I LOVE two-strokes, but there's no chance on earth I will ever be faster on one compared to my 250F. I think at a certain level of skills (low) a four stroke provides adequate power at any given point with maximal grip, whereas my former two stroke had an all or nothing power delivery. Still my ambition is to ride a tiddler wide open to the point where I feel I need more...
I love my 250t but corners were easier on the 450f. You could mess up a cornner and just go WFO and make up for some of it. On the 250t if you mess up you can't just apply more power. But if I could hit corners perfect everytime I'd be just as fast on the 250t and last longer.
AJ
Do you work your motors at all to smooth them out?
I'm sure this has already been answered but the search engine sucks.
It cracks me up that the RFJ's (Regular F'in Joes) that sit behind a keyboard can't wait to tweak their 450 for a few more hp yet the people that do this for a living (i.e., Pros) often detune their 450's so they are more manageable.
the 500's have a lot ,more torqe and low end than a 450..
they dont have to be brutes.
that test bike was stock!!!
but the 500 cylinders can be ported fo5 buttery smooth power as well..
Not saying all things are bad for thumpers but what do the riders want.? IMO a reliable bike that the average Joe can purchase and maintain at a reasonable price. KTM experienced record 2-Stroke sales in 2008. Yamaha is seeing the same thing with the YZ125 and YZ250. If this was not true then why isn't KTM and Yamaha offering up big incentives to move these bikes?
Suzuki started to offer in 2008 an RM125XC and RM250XC in Great Britain. Asked if they would sell it in the states and the answer was "NO"! Why?
Haven't seen one?
http://www.suzuki-gb.co.uk/bikes/offroad/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The new RM125XC is derived from the hugely popular and established RM range and now includes added extras, providing a lightweight, manoeuvrable bike for Hare and Hound and Cross-Country riders. As used by Paul 'Fast Eddy" Edmondson in numerous 'Extreme' enduro events, it boasts all the standard features of the RM125. This model also has a larger capacity IMS fuel tank, UFO hand guards, a Regina O-ring chain and Relentless Fast Eddy replica graphics kit. The RM125XC really is one of the most cost effective ways to enjoy fun in the mud on two wheels.
What did Suzuki website say there? "The RM125XC really is one of the most cost effective ways to enjoy fun in the mud on two wheels."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What about the "NEW 2-Stroke "Green" technology?
http://www.twostrokeshop.com/...ES-STRIKE-BACK-1.jpg
I hope the manufacturers are listening. Rumors are swirling about a new Honda CR250 and a CR144. The CR144 is the answer to the 500+ 2007 Honda CR125s sitting in the Honda warehouses. With a new cylinder and bold new graphics Honda empties out their warehouses.
Lets not kill the 4-Stroke but it would be nice to be able to walk into your local dealer and be able to choose what you want versus buy what the manufacturers want you to buy.
he likes KTM or YZ 2 stroke i really want both but i dont think my wife would
like me too much after that
Pit Row
Funny thing is, I not only feel faster, but I am considerably faster on a YZ250 over a YZ450. I finally had enough of my 450 last week and bought a used 09yz250 2 stroke. To me the 450 made me feel as though I was along for the ride, having difficulty making quick line changes, getting on top of bumps(instead of plowing through them), or trying to correct the bikes telemetry after cross rutting a jump face. Riding the bikes back to back(and the 250 was set up for 130lb rider not my fat 220lbs) I was able to instantly shave 3 sec. off my lap times at a local track.
Until Mr. Coombs takes control, and rights the rules to even the score,
the cheater bikes will dominate.
But that might not happen. Although MXSports is said to own the outdoors,
pressure from the dog may prove to be too much. It was the factories in the beginning
that started racing itself. Organized racing anyway. Events were run to showcase
current models and prove performance. H'D, Indian, Moto'Guzzi, all learned
early on, "win on Sunday Sell on Monday." They build what they want and
try as best they can to sell it. And racing is just part of it.
Now, one wonders, even if Big Davy were to stand up and say, "as of 2010,
the AMA Nationals run cc to cc", would that be enough? Could MXSports
stand up to the factories? Do they even have the clout to make that call?
Heads up, the issue will settle itself. No one likes to lose, and the 4s would all
but vanish, again.
Unless the dog still wants to make 4strokes only.....................
you could put RC on a vespa and he would still rail around the track.
Now, put a 250cc two stroke against a 250cc four stroke, and the story changes. Consider the maintenance differences, too. The 250 4-stroke is eating heads, while the 250 two stroke needs occasional rings.
Put a 500cc two stroke against a 450cc four stroke, and tell me what has more torque. Certainly not the 4-stroke. The 450 four stroke falls way short on horsepower. And, keep the 450 long enough (many here sell theirs every year or two), and you'll find the 500 requires only rings once in a long, long time, where the 450 will eventually get at those valves.
I know I'm faster on my 500 than I ever was on my 450. Waayyyy faster, especially after I've now logged some decent seat time. The scariest thing about the 500 is how much traction you can get, even on dry, slick ground...and the result is how fast you can go. Judging jumps is a bitch for the first few weeks (at least it was for me).
People need to compare apples to apples. They don't. They think in terms of the rules that destroyed the 2-strokes. A comparable displacement 2-stroke makes way more torque than the 4, is lighter, and will have a much better maintenance record. If they started putting modern 2-stroke engines in modern chassis, the 4's would go back to being the streetbikes only.
And, even if they figured out a way to even up the hp and torque (with different displacements), you'd end up with one engine that's inherently lighter, less complex (means less maintenance), and less costly. That'd be the two stroke. We need to get those rules, so we can bring back affordability and better handling to the bikes.
I honestly dont care about the whole 4 vs 2 stroke debate. Everybody is different and certain bikes work better for certain people. what I do care about is having the option to choose which bike is best for me, even though that is steadily being taken away. The conquest of the almighty dollar by the MFG's is going to drive this sport into unobtainium.
I know, we're a small slice of the pie but why then aren't they paying James to ride off road or whatever else is supposed to be the money maker. As far as that goes, if we're not a large enough market to warrant our own specialized product, how did we get these 4 stks and where else do they need a CRF type of product?
Market forces had to involve legislating an advantage, or disadvantage that most 2 stk riders couldn't overcome. Interesting that market forces in the pro ranks determined it is too expensive to allow 250's in the 250 class when most of the market forces questioned wouldn't run one anyway. What does it say when it's too expensive to let a cheaper bike in the class?
You're right that the 4 stks make you faster, it just takes more skill to do the same thing on a 2 stk as on a 4 stk. Honda wanted the 150 in the 85 class and we actually had 7 y/o's on 85's, nothing about that was a good idea.
He is running a YZ125 for his first year on the big bikes and after riding both a CR and YZ 250F he said he would rather not ride than be out there on a four stroke.
Two weeks ago the airbox boot snapped off and the engine on his bike grenaded, he actually sat out the rest of the day rather than ride a 250F
We are just racing at the local level and he is in it for the fun of riding as much as to be competetive but it is definitely 2 stroke all the way for us.
just some trivia i suppose,,
but
Clive Thorsby (paul's mech)
builds those Suzukis for UK.
and is our UK distributor for Service 500AF's and 250AF's!
If AMA would have surcum to that pressure at the amatuer level like what happened with other things. this sport we call mx would be even more in the tank at the local level.
when the last 2 stroke is made by oem/s some interpriseing young chinese dude will make a reliable, 250 2 stroke for about 3500.00 and make themselves a boat load of money. 7,000 dollar dirt bikes this sport can not survive on. those facts are staring us in the face day in and day out.
ask ANY dealer TODAY, "hows bike sales"? not to mention they have practically killed off the start up rider on a 50cc machine now. Our numbers here have tanked, and new riders are non exisistant.
Don't care if they are 2 or 4 stroke, but if they can't figure out how to keep the cost in check this sport will be lucky to last 20 more years. As sports go, mX is one of the youngest.
lets not talk about sitting around all day to ride 10 laps.
after 35 years of racing mx, it's really hard to justify the time. riding a HS you show up, you race, you go home. 2 hours on the machine. really good time management there.
LOL i know AJ, you told me so long ago.
but i still love "REAL" MX......... guess that makes me old.
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