2 stroke vs 4 stroke :)

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7/21/2009 11:25 AM
Edited Date/Time: 4/17/2016 1:01 AM

yes yes
i know the endless debate,LOL
ive never started a thread on it though.. !!

but it will continue to come up..
so for a new look into it ,
check out August Transworld MX ?

Smile


seems Lute was 3 seconds faster on the KX500AF,
a bike he is not used to,
than on his own bike (KX450F)

he FELT faster on the 450.however .
Transpoonders dont lie though.

we've had this repeated over and over for the last decade when
actual lap times are taken instead of just riding "impression"

granted it depends on the level of rider since throttle control is key.and conditioning

but dont doubt RC on a 500AF of either brand would be faster,,
Give fast guys a lighter, quicker handling and faster bike,
they go faster
it shouldnt be a surprise or much of a debate.
mx isnt rocket science.
Smile


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7/21/2009 11:25 AM

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7/21/2009 11:37 AM

I used to be a die hard 4 stroke guy but after multiple crashes (the last one being the worst of all) I am leaning more toward the 2 stroke now and will be testing my theory with a freshly restored 01 RM250.........

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7/21/2009 11:40 AM

smile
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7/21/2009 11:48 AM

i think if you have like a 200cc 2 stroke that would be right with a 250cc 4 stroke
if you got a 300cc to a 325cc 2stroke that would be right with a 450
that would be your normal rider at a normal local track
just what i think

now if you put bubba or RC on anything they would bet any one else on anything
but they dont apply

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7/21/2009 11:51 AM

i may be faster on a 450 4 stroke as i seem to ride more in control BUT i have more fun riding a 250 2 stroke any day of the year....

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02 PW80 8) #N8 [LINK TO IMAGE]

7/21/2009 11:58 AM

Blowin more smoke..........2 smoke......up my xxxxxx

hahahaha

Stroker vs the Smoker ride day ?

Some guys on proride did this and had a great turnout !

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7/21/2009 12:04 PM

My ten year old racer climbed off his 85 this weekend onto a friends 150. After 20 minutes he came back and said "sell the 85s". After a few more 20-30 minute sessions he said he'd be willing to quit racing sanctioned events until he can race the 150 in a legal class. He loves racing, but loves the 150 more. He loved blitzing the whoops and the corner speed. He loved the bike and said he felt more in control.

Also, after 2010 doesn't Europe preclude most sales of two strokes? What about the U.S.? It seems that market forces and regs will make 2011 a year of more four stroke mini classes. Will the AMA be left behind? Will it be NMA and outlaw races? That seems to be what's happening.

Also, as someone old enough to know (and know better) about climbing on a 500 cc two stroke on an MX track. I don't know many people who can hang onto such a bike for more than a couple laps. A 450 had a rideability factor a 500 cc two stroke just doesn't have. Also, one can make a mistake or two on a 450 that would cause certain harm on the 500.

I'm not anti 500cc bikes. It's just that they are a niche market. I would love to see a lap time sheet for a dozen amateur riders of different ages and classes on a 500 cc two stroke and a 450 four stroke. I'm willing to bet the 500 cc lap times drop dramatically and the 450 stays more consistent. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that this phenomenon exists.

If I could still ride I would love to have a 500 for the fun factor, but for racing I'd take a 450 or a modified 250 four stroke. They just seem to be able to get traction on greased glass.

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C4MX, Triangle Cycles, Gary Bailey MX Schools, HInson, Liquid Performance, MGX Graphics, Renthal, Dunlop, ATVs and More, Seven MX gear, vertex, cylinder works, 100% Goggles and Gaerne.

7/21/2009 12:04 PM

Decadents a side, I think we all maggots need both a two-stroke and a four-stroke.

I LOVE two-strokes, but there's no chance on earth I will ever be faster on one compared to my 250F. I think at a certain level of skills (low) a four stroke provides adequate power at any given point with maximal grip, whereas my former two stroke had an all or nothing power delivery. Still my ambition is to ride a tiddler wide open to the point where I feel I need more...

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7/21/2009 12:05 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/17/2016 1:01 AM

x2 on that. In response to Rockcrawlerdude.

I love my 250t but corners were easier on the 450f. You could mess up a cornner and just go WFO and make up for some of it. On the 250t if you mess up you can't just apply more power. But if I could hit corners perfect everytime I'd be just as fast on the 250t and last longer.

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7/21/2009 12:07 PM

Cant resist replying to this. That ktm300 that fmf just put together is BAD. Weighs only 200#, and has 50+ hp. Personally, I think that bike would be the fastest thing(laptime) for just about anybody to throw a leg. By the way, that 50hp is a controllable 50, not like the very old 500cc motors.

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7/21/2009 12:17 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/17/2016 1:01 AM

A worked over 500 is a very controlable motor. I've riden a couple and PC makes a real nice 500 motor that is just smooth as butter. My 05 450 reminded me alot of it. the 450 was just down on power.

AJ
Do you work your motors at all to smooth them out?

I'm sure this has already been answered but the search engine sucks.

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7/21/2009 12:26 PM

I find it interesting that, years ago, the sweet spot for manufacturers seemed to be 125 and 250's, with fewer riders buying Open class bikes (400cc +). Now, it seems the sweet spot has shifted to Open class bikes (i.e., 450 4T) and everyone suddenly finds themselves able to mess up a corner but still boost the jump afterwards. That really doesn't surprise me and I think that most people would have had the same ability on a 500, provided it didn't rip their arms off first. smile

It cracks me up that the RFJ's (Regular F'in Joes) that sit behind a keyboard can't wait to tweak their 450 for a few more hp yet the people that do this for a living (i.e., Pros) often detune their 450's so they are more manageable.

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"Vital MX, it's got killer skull's man." GuyB

7/21/2009 12:50 PM

Michael499 wrote:

My ten year old racer climbed off his 85 this weekend onto a friends 150. After 20 minutes he came back and said "sell the ...more

need to read what the TWMX riders thoughts were since he ha dseat time o nboth recently?

the 500's have a lot ,more torqe and low end than a 450..
they dont have to be brutes.


that test bike was stock!!!
but the 500 cylinders can be ported fo5 buttery smooth power as well..

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7/21/2009 5:25 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/17/2016 1:02 AM

There is a bright future for 2-Strokes in America. This is evident if OEMs would look outside of California. Manufacturers need to look to the east coast and to "offroad racing" to see what they are riding. The majority - 2-Strokes! This past weekend at the AMA National Hare Scramble (600+ in attendance) in New York, the top 4 Overall riders were on Yamaha YZ250s! A quick observation walking through the starting lines you could see about 80% of the bikes were 2-Strokes. At the National Hare Scramble in Indiana the 2-Stroke population was over 60%. Same thing at the Sumter National Enduro. Same thing at the National Enduro Series. In Virginia they are tracking the 2-Stroke vs. 4-Stroke population and the numbers are amazing: 67% smokers so far in 2009! Average turnout at a VCHSS event: 400+. Oh yeah, what about the GNCCs? Manufacturers force, well maybe "force" is too strong of a word, lets say encourage their top riders to race the 450s. Why not? If a 2-Stroke won at a GNCC what would the dealer sell on Monday? Remember the warehouses are full of 450 4-Strokes.

Not saying all things are bad for thumpers but what do the riders want.? IMO a reliable bike that the average Joe can purchase and maintain at a reasonable price. KTM experienced record 2-Stroke sales in 2008. Yamaha is seeing the same thing with the YZ125 and YZ250. If this was not true then why isn't KTM and Yamaha offering up big incentives to move these bikes?

Suzuki started to offer in 2008 an RM125XC and RM250XC in Great Britain. Asked if they would sell it in the states and the answer was "NO"! Why?

Haven't seen one?

http://www.suzuki-gb.co.uk/bikes/offroad/

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[LINK TO IMAGE]

The new RM125XC is derived from the hugely popular and established RM range and now includes added extras, providing a lightweight, manoeuvrable bike for Hare and Hound and Cross-Country riders. As used by Paul 'Fast Eddy" Edmondson in numerous 'Extreme' enduro events, it boasts all the standard features of the RM125. This model also has a larger capacity IMS fuel tank, UFO hand guards, a Regina O-ring chain and Relentless Fast Eddy replica graphics kit. The RM125XC really is one of the most cost effective ways to enjoy fun in the mud on two wheels.

What did Suzuki website say there? "The RM125XC really is one of the most cost effective ways to enjoy fun in the mud on two wheels."

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What about the "NEW 2-Stroke "Green" technology?

http://www.twostrokeshop.com/...ES-STRIKE-BACK-1.jpg


I hope the manufacturers are listening. Rumors are swirling about a new Honda CR250 and a CR144. The CR144 is the answer to the 500+ 2007 Honda CR125s sitting in the Honda warehouses. With a new cylinder and bold new graphics Honda empties out their warehouses.

Lets not kill the 4-Stroke but it would be nice to be able to walk into your local dealer and be able to choose what you want versus buy what the manufacturers want you to buy.

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My bikes: '73 Honda SL70, '74 Suzuki TM75, '75 Honda CR125, '76 Honda CR125, '76 Suzuki RM100, '76 Honda XR75, '77 Suzuki RM125, '79 Maico Magnum 250, '80 Maico MC 250, '79 Maico Magnum 400, '85 Kawasaki KX250, '93 Honda XR250R, '94 Honda CR250, '01 KTM 300EXC, '04 KTM 300 EXC, '05 KTM 300 EXC, '06 KTM 300 XCW, '08 KTM 300 XCW

7/21/2009 5:54 PM

I will buy two stroke only.

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bd

7/21/2009 6:05 PM

I loved watching Jtomasic try to start his 500 in Oklahoma. By the time he got that pig started, the rest of us were gone....

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The message posted above is most likely my opinion and shouldn't be taken as fact....

7/21/2009 6:08 PM

i am trying to talk to my inner most throttel twister inside my head to see if
he likes KTM or YZ 2 stroke i really want both but i dont think my wife would
like me too much after that

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7/21/2009 6:55 PM

LOL@the smokers.....EXCEPT the black bikes AJ has made!

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4 strokes started this sport!

7/21/2009 8:10 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/17/2016 1:02 AM

bd wrote:

I will buy two stroke only.

x2


Funny thing is, I not only feel faster, but I am considerably faster on a YZ250 over a YZ450. I finally had enough of my 450 last week and bought a used 09yz250 2 stroke. To me the 450 made me feel as though I was along for the ride, having difficulty making quick line changes, getting on top of bumps(instead of plowing through them), or trying to correct the bikes telemetry after cross rutting a jump face. Riding the bikes back to back(and the 250 was set up for 130lb rider not my fat 220lbs) I was able to instantly shave 3 sec. off my lap times at a local track.

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If I wanted to ride a 4stroke, I would stay home and mow the lawn

7/21/2009 8:14 PM

bd wrote:

I will buy two stroke only.

kaboom645 wrote:

x2


Funny thing is, I not only feel faster, but I am considerably faster on a YZ250 over a YZ450. I finally had enough of my ...more

i am a lot faster on a 2stroke over a four bangor

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7/21/2009 8:14 PM

I LOVE 4 strokes. Love the way they make power, love the grunt, love the sound. Love how long they last inbetween rebuilds. I will never buy another 2 stroke.

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7/21/2009 8:15 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/17/2016 1:02 AM



Until Mr. Coombs takes control, and rights the rules to even the score,

the cheater bikes will dominate.


But that might not happen. Although MXSports is said to own the outdoors,

pressure from the dog may prove to be too much. It was the factories in the beginning

that started racing itself. Organized racing anyway. Events were run to showcase

current models and prove performance. H'D, Indian, Moto'Guzzi, all learned

early on, "win on Sunday Sell on Monday." They build what they want and

try as best they can to sell it. And racing is just part of it.


Now, one wonders, even if Big Davy were to stand up and say, "as of 2010,

the AMA Nationals run cc to cc", would that be enough? Could MXSports

stand up to the factories? Do they even have the clout to make that call?


Heads up, the issue will settle itself. No one likes to lose, and the 4s would all

but vanish, again.


Unless the dog still wants to make 4strokes only.....................







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7/21/2009 8:18 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/17/2016 1:02 AM




you could put RC on a vespa and he would still rail around the track.


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7/21/2009 8:20 PM
Edited Date/Time: 7/22/2009 4:23 AM

Odd that people say the thumpers have more traction. I think it's a misconception because of the displacement rules. A 125cc two stroke has to be tweaked to run near the same speeds of a 250cc four stroke. Same with a 250cc two stroke vs. a 450cc four stroke.



Now, put a 250cc two stroke against a 250cc four stroke, and the story changes. Consider the maintenance differences, too. The 250 4-stroke is eating heads, while the 250 two stroke needs occasional rings.



Put a 500cc two stroke against a 450cc four stroke, and tell me what has more torque. Certainly not the 4-stroke. The 450 four stroke falls way short on horsepower. And, keep the 450 long enough (many here sell theirs every year or two), and you'll find the 500 requires only rings once in a long, long time, where the 450 will eventually get at those valves.



I know I'm faster on my 500 than I ever was on my 450. Waayyyy faster, especially after I've now logged some decent seat time. The scariest thing about the 500 is how much traction you can get, even on dry, slick ground...and the result is how fast you can go. Judging jumps is a bitch for the first few weeks (at least it was for me).



People need to compare apples to apples. They don't. They think in terms of the rules that destroyed the 2-strokes. A comparable displacement 2-stroke makes way more torque than the 4, is lighter, and will have a much better maintenance record. If they started putting modern 2-stroke engines in modern chassis, the 4's would go back to being the streetbikes only.


And, even if they figured out a way to even up the hp and torque (with different displacements), you'd end up with one engine that's inherently lighter, less complex (means less maintenance), and less costly. That'd be the two stroke. We need to get those rules, so we can bring back affordability and better handling to the bikes.

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7/21/2009 8:34 PM
Edited Date/Time: 4/17/2016 1:02 AM

My last year racing professionally( 04) I raced a YZ250.... I went a full year on the same piston, crank and clutch. The bike got new rings every 3 months during that time. That bike is still running to this day on its original crank. The previous year I tried a YZ250f, and it needed constant attention, and still blew up regularly. At the beginning of this year I started riding again after taking 4yrs off. I bought a 450, and it made it 16.2 hrs before it blew up, taking out every part in the engine, but the cases. It is now sitting in the corner of my shop collecting dust. I have waaay to much money in it to sell it, and now that I bought a yz250 its doubtful I will ever ride the 450 again.


I honestly dont care about the whole 4 vs 2 stroke debate. Everybody is different and certain bikes work better for certain people. what I do care about is having the option to choose which bike is best for me, even though that is steadily being taken away. The conquest of the almighty dollar by the MFG's is going to drive this sport into unobtainium.

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If I wanted to ride a 4stroke, I would stay home and mow the lawn

7/21/2009 8:50 PM

AJ, you got email.

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7/21/2009 8:53 PM

Michael499 wrote:

My ten year old racer climbed off his 85 this weekend onto a friends 150. After 20 minutes he came back and said "sell the ...more

What regs? Japan regulating AMA rules? MX bikes are exempt from federal emission standards.

I know, we're a small slice of the pie but why then aren't they paying James to ride off road or whatever else is supposed to be the money maker. As far as that goes, if we're not a large enough market to warrant our own specialized product, how did we get these 4 stks and where else do they need a CRF type of product?

Market forces had to involve legislating an advantage, or disadvantage that most 2 stk riders couldn't overcome. Interesting that market forces in the pro ranks determined it is too expensive to allow 250's in the 250 class when most of the market forces questioned wouldn't run one anyway. What does it say when it's too expensive to let a cheaper bike in the class?

You're right that the 4 stks make you faster, it just takes more skill to do the same thing on a 2 stk as on a 4 stk. Honda wanted the 150 in the 85 class and we actually had 7 y/o's on 85's, nothing about that was a good idea.

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7/21/2009 9:10 PM

My kid wants nothing to do with the 4 strokes.

He is running a YZ125 for his first year on the big bikes and after riding both a CR and YZ 250F he said he would rather not ride than be out there on a four stroke.
Two weeks ago the airbox boot snapped off and the engine on his bike grenaded, he actually sat out the rest of the day rather than ride a 250F

We are just racing at the local level and he is in it for the fun of riding as much as to be competetive but it is definitely 2 stroke all the way for us.

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7/21/2009 9:39 PM

Bulldog wrote:

There is a bright future for 2-Strokes in America. This is evident if OEMs would look outside of California. Manufacturers ...more

bulldog

just some trivia i suppose,,
but

Clive Thorsby (paul's mech)
builds those Suzukis for UK.
and is our UK distributor for Service 500AF's and 250AF's!

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