100LL avgas in 450

NJKawi913
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Edited Date/Time 4/18/2018 10:58am
I have a 15 kx450F that is still runnng the stock compression ratio. I have run vp T4 in the past but the price and availbilty in NJ has turned me back to running 93 pump gas. I have a small regional airport 10 mins from me that sells 100LL avgas for $4 a gallon. Does anyone has some experience running avgas? I am mainly looking into this to find a cleaner burning fuel, IMO the gas coming from the pumps these days is complete garbage.
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kb228
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4/12/2018 6:21am
No experience with avgas, just a suggestion for another alternative.

If you have a road racing track near you, look around for a speedway gas station that sells cam2. Its sunoco 110 race gas. Its $7/gal here and works great in my kx450.
murph783
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4/12/2018 6:23am
Used to run it in 2 strokes all the time, no problem. Just recently switched over in my 2014 yz250f, so far it seems to be working well. Performance wise I don’t see any real noticeable difference from the Sunoco 110 I was running. I’m only about 4 hours into it since switching, but I haven’t noticed any Ill effects so far.
billyp330
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4/12/2018 6:43am
I have never understood anyone that insists they need race gas for their bikes, especially stock or mostly stock bikes.
NJKawi913
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4/12/2018 6:43am
kb228 wrote:
No experience with avgas, just a suggestion for another alternative. If you have a road racing track near you, look around for a speedway gas station...
No experience with avgas, just a suggestion for another alternative.

If you have a road racing track near you, look around for a speedway gas station that sells cam2. Its sunoco 110 race gas. Its $7/gal here and works great in my kx450.
I had two Sunoco station that were literally on my way to track that used to have 100, and 110 on pump. Then the drag strip across from the track shut down and they got rid of it.

The Shop

kb228
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4/12/2018 6:44am
billyp330 wrote:
I have never understood anyone that insists they need race gas for their bikes, especially stock or mostly stock bikes.
Its consistent and its not dirty like pump gas.
NJKawi913
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4/12/2018 6:46am
billyp330 wrote:
I have never understood anyone that insists they need race gas for their bikes, especially stock or mostly stock bikes.
Well its not a necessity. However i've worked in engine building for awhile and you can really tell a differnce betweent he intrenals of an motor that only ran ethanol filled pump gas, as compared to a ethanol free or leaded fuel. Pull apart the two different motors at 100 hours and the difference is clear.
4/12/2018 6:53am
billyp330 wrote:
I have never understood anyone that insists they need race gas for their bikes, especially stock or mostly stock bikes.
NJKawi913 wrote:
Well its not a necessity. However i've worked in engine building for awhile and you can really tell a differnce betweent he intrenals of an motor...
Well its not a necessity. However i've worked in engine building for awhile and you can really tell a differnce betweent he intrenals of an motor that only ran ethanol filled pump gas, as compared to a ethanol free or leaded fuel. Pull apart the two different motors at 100 hours and the difference is clear.
Not saying you’re wrong but I put about 150 hours on my 450 with just regular wawa gas and never touched the motor. She felt fine to me Smile
captmoto
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4/12/2018 7:04am
Because California gas is shit with winter and summer blends, ethanol and clean air additives. I've run Avgas in my FC450, 05CR250 and YZ465. Avgas is $4.25 near me. Anything in a can is at least $14 a gallon.
NJKawi913
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4/12/2018 7:06am
Not saying you’re wrong but I put about 150 hours on my 450 with just regular wawa gas and never touched the motor. She felt fine...
Not saying you’re wrong but I put about 150 hours on my 450 with just regular wawa gas and never touched the motor. She felt fine to me Smile
I may have overstated that bit. The differences aren't catosprohpic and something that your going to significantly notice riding it. I'm speaking more on the amount of carbon build up on the valves, piston, and cylinder walls.

These things aren't as evident in small engines like we use in motocross. However in my other hobby drag racing, ive see plenty of motors wear out or lose power based on fuel.
billyp330
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4/12/2018 7:16am
billyp330 wrote:
I have never understood anyone that insists they need race gas for their bikes, especially stock or mostly stock bikes.
NJKawi913 wrote:
Well its not a necessity. However i've worked in engine building for awhile and you can really tell a differnce betweent he intrenals of an motor...
Well its not a necessity. However i've worked in engine building for awhile and you can really tell a differnce betweent he intrenals of an motor that only ran ethanol filled pump gas, as compared to a ethanol free or leaded fuel. Pull apart the two different motors at 100 hours and the difference is clear.
If I'm pulling apart a motor then its because I'm rebuilding it, therefore don't care if its a bit dirtier then a different motor that is cleaner. As long as they both made it approximately the same amount of time before needing rebuild, who cares how much better one looks then the other.

I want the most bang for my buck, paying almost double for fuel that gives no performance gains (ik some will argue there is gain but to that I say prove it. Unless OEM calls out for it, stock motor does not need higher octane and it can actually rob power due to insufficient burn. My kawi 09-11 manual does not call out octane level and therefore is designed for standard octane fuel) and doesn't increase reliability (again can be argued, but if engine on pump gas still exceeds what the OEM service intervals calls out are then it should be changed regardless) just doesn't make sense to me.

Just my opinion of course
NJKawi913
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4/12/2018 7:29am
billyp330 wrote:
If I'm pulling apart a motor then its because I'm rebuilding it, therefore don't care if its a bit dirtier then a different motor that is...
If I'm pulling apart a motor then its because I'm rebuilding it, therefore don't care if its a bit dirtier then a different motor that is cleaner. As long as they both made it approximately the same amount of time before needing rebuild, who cares how much better one looks then the other.

I want the most bang for my buck, paying almost double for fuel that gives no performance gains (ik some will argue there is gain but to that I say prove it. Unless OEM calls out for it, stock motor does not need higher octane and it can actually rob power due to insufficient burn. My kawi 09-11 manual does not call out octane level and therefore is designed for standard octane fuel) and doesn't increase reliability (again can be argued, but if engine on pump gas still exceeds what the OEM service intervals calls out are then it should be changed regardless) just doesn't make sense to me.

Just my opinion of course
Those are all very valid points, that i agree with. They are the same reasons I switched back to pump gas when i got back to riding stock bikes. What are paying for pump gas where your at? I am at $3 a gallons for 93.
mattyhamz2
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4/12/2018 7:32am
billyp330 wrote:
I have never understood anyone that insists they need race gas for their bikes, especially stock or mostly stock bikes.
NJKawi913 wrote:
Well its not a necessity. However i've worked in engine building for awhile and you can really tell a differnce betweent he intrenals of an motor...
Well its not a necessity. However i've worked in engine building for awhile and you can really tell a differnce betweent he intrenals of an motor that only ran ethanol filled pump gas, as compared to a ethanol free or leaded fuel. Pull apart the two different motors at 100 hours and the difference is clear.
billyp330 wrote:
If I'm pulling apart a motor then its because I'm rebuilding it, therefore don't care if its a bit dirtier then a different motor that is...
If I'm pulling apart a motor then its because I'm rebuilding it, therefore don't care if its a bit dirtier then a different motor that is cleaner. As long as they both made it approximately the same amount of time before needing rebuild, who cares how much better one looks then the other.

I want the most bang for my buck, paying almost double for fuel that gives no performance gains (ik some will argue there is gain but to that I say prove it. Unless OEM calls out for it, stock motor does not need higher octane and it can actually rob power due to insufficient burn. My kawi 09-11 manual does not call out octane level and therefore is designed for standard octane fuel) and doesn't increase reliability (again can be argued, but if engine on pump gas still exceeds what the OEM service intervals calls out are then it should be changed regardless) just doesn't make sense to me.

Just my opinion of course
I'm with you on this.
billyp330
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4/12/2018 7:58am
NJKawi913 wrote:
Those are all very valid points, that i agree with. They are the same reasons I switched back to pump gas when i got back to...
Those are all very valid points, that i agree with. They are the same reasons I switched back to pump gas when i got back to riding stock bikes. What are paying for pump gas where your at? I am at $3 a gallons for 93.
Just under $3 for 93 typically. Looking at your OP I guess $4 a gallon isn't much more so saying double the price is exaggerated, but I was mostly referring to those die hard VP guys, which pay closer to 3-4 times the money per gallon.
mx317
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4/12/2018 8:23am
A lot of octane is not required, but quality of gas is very important. My KTM manual recommends 95 octane fuel and warns against a lower quality gas. Poor quality fuel can cause fuel pump problems and clog injectors. Run the best you can afford, but you don't need $15 per gallon gas in most cases.
4/12/2018 8:40am
Question for those in the know, is there an effect on the injection system to using leaded fuels?
4/12/2018 8:41am
I run avgas 50/50 with 91 octane pump in my 2015 kx450 with high compression piston and stage 2 hotcams cams and use the lean coupler. I can feel the power decrease running 100% avgas, but it's simply because I can't tune for it. Avgas will run richer than pump gas on the same jetting/fuel map.

For a stock compression motor, you shouldn't need to run it. Sure, avgas is a lot more consistent than pump gas and is a relatively cheap race gas. However, you'll lose power vs using 91 or 93 pump gas. If your stock bike is pinging using pump gas, go ahead and put a splash of avgas in it to mitigate that.
kb228
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4/12/2018 9:38am
Sheriff245 wrote:
Question for those in the know, is there an effect on the injection system to using leaded fuels?
Cam2 is leaded. Been running it in my kx450 for 3 years and havent had any issues whatsoever.
bvm111
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4/12/2018 9:39am
billyp330 wrote:
I have never understood anyone that insists they need race gas for their bikes, especially stock or mostly stock bikes.
I have never understood anyone paying 8-10000 grand for a motorcycle and then dumping absolute garbage fuel in it with California required emission additives and ethanol in them... seriously???
TeamGreen
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4/12/2018 9:50am
billyp330 wrote:
I have never understood anyone that insists they need race gas for their bikes, especially stock or mostly stock bikes.
kb228 wrote:
Its consistent and its not dirty like pump gas.
As he said...

Also, I like the snappy throttle response & the hole-shots I’m getting. I don’t get popping or bogging and I don’t EVER have fuel pump issues. My valve-trains have lasted longer: that’s considering BOTH adjustments and parts durability.

I’ve been testing T4 w/ pump gas mixed at 2:1 (2 gal T4 to 1 gal pump 91).
Works really well and still getting excellent fuel system and engine durability.
Note: I add pump fuel through a fuel filter/fuel sock to keep any unknown crap outta my bike!
billyp330
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4/12/2018 10:17am
billyp330 wrote:
I have never understood anyone that insists they need race gas for their bikes, especially stock or mostly stock bikes.
bvm111 wrote:
I have never understood anyone paying 8-10000 grand for a motorcycle and then dumping absolute garbage fuel in it with California required emission additives and ethanol...
I have never understood anyone paying 8-10000 grand for a motorcycle and then dumping absolute garbage fuel in it with California required emission additives and ethanol in them... seriously???
Please explain the "garbage" in California fuel that ruins your $8-10K bike.

Don't rant the additives names either, I'm looking for actual studies that show how those additives create extra wear and cause premature failure or at least significant performance loss in dirt bike specific testing.

Maybe California fuel is horrible compared to Ohio, no idea, but I doubt it and I have never had a single issue, nor heard of anyone else having one either with any bike ever due to "garbage" fuel. Not saying its impossible, but I'd bet highly unlikely.
kb228
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4/12/2018 10:20am
billyp330 wrote:
I have never understood anyone that insists they need race gas for their bikes, especially stock or mostly stock bikes.
bvm111 wrote:
I have never understood anyone paying 8-10000 grand for a motorcycle and then dumping absolute garbage fuel in it with California required emission additives and ethanol...
I have never understood anyone paying 8-10000 grand for a motorcycle and then dumping absolute garbage fuel in it with California required emission additives and ethanol in them... seriously???
billyp330 wrote:
Please explain the "garbage" in California fuel that ruins your $8-10K bike. Don't rant the additives names either, I'm looking for actual studies that show how...
Please explain the "garbage" in California fuel that ruins your $8-10K bike.

Don't rant the additives names either, I'm looking for actual studies that show how those additives create extra wear and cause premature failure or at least significant performance loss in dirt bike specific testing.

Maybe California fuel is horrible compared to Ohio, no idea, but I doubt it and I have never had a single issue, nor heard of anyone else having one either with any bike ever due to "garbage" fuel. Not saying its impossible, but I'd bet highly unlikely.
I live in ohio and i can confidently say that pump gas causes my kx450 to not even run. Fuel filter or not, crap gets into something and blocks the injector and messes it up. If its not cam2 or vp it wont run. Period.
aeffertz
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4/12/2018 10:24am
We tested the avgas in our two strokes after someone recommended it to us and it was considerably cheaper than the VP we usually run. Blew up two top ends while running it. Never blew a top end before since we keep the bikes in prestige shape and do the routine maintenance and never blew a top end after switching back to regular race gas.

We just mixed it the same as we were with the race gas but just seemed like too much of a coincidence to blow one relatively new top and and then a fresh top end consecutively while trying the avgas.
billyp330
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4/12/2018 10:26am
kb228 wrote:
I live in ohio and i can confidently say that pump gas causes my kx450 to not even run. Fuel filter or not, crap gets into...
I live in ohio and i can confidently say that pump gas causes my kx450 to not even run. Fuel filter or not, crap gets into something and blocks the injector and messes it up. If its not cam2 or vp it wont run. Period.
So you put pump gas in it and it wont start at all or does it run, but not run correctly?

Any mods to your bike? Such as high compression piston?
kb228
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4/12/2018 10:28am
kb228 wrote:
I live in ohio and i can confidently say that pump gas causes my kx450 to not even run. Fuel filter or not, crap gets into...
I live in ohio and i can confidently say that pump gas causes my kx450 to not even run. Fuel filter or not, crap gets into something and blocks the injector and messes it up. If its not cam2 or vp it wont run. Period.
billyp330 wrote:
So you put pump gas in it and it wont start at all or does it run, but not run correctly? Any mods to your bike...
So you put pump gas in it and it wont start at all or does it run, but not run correctly?

Any mods to your bike? Such as high compression piston?
It will start run fine and then never restart. Did this when it was stock and now has a high comp piston and stage 1 hot cams and havent tried pump gas since before the motor mods
mb
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4/12/2018 10:28am Edited Date/Time 4/12/2018 10:31am
mx317 wrote:
A lot of octane is not required, but quality of gas is very important. My KTM manual recommends 95 octane fuel and warns against a lower...
A lot of octane is not required, but quality of gas is very important. My KTM manual recommends 95 octane fuel and warns against a lower quality gas. Poor quality fuel can cause fuel pump problems and clog injectors. Run the best you can afford, but you don't need $15 per gallon gas in most cases.
Our gasoline is calculated differently here in the states. 95 RON is the same as 91 PON in the U.S.A. Pumps usually say R+M/2.
Asimo
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4/12/2018 10:32am
aeffertz wrote:
We tested the avgas in our two strokes after someone recommended it to us and it was considerably cheaper than the VP we usually run. Blew...
We tested the avgas in our two strokes after someone recommended it to us and it was considerably cheaper than the VP we usually run. Blew up two top ends while running it. Never blew a top end before since we keep the bikes in prestige shape and do the routine maintenance and never blew a top end after switching back to regular race gas.

We just mixed it the same as we were with the race gas but just seemed like too much of a coincidence to blow one relatively new top and and then a fresh top end consecutively while trying the avgas.
Makes no sense because whats in av gas is the same compounds in most fuels. Fuel isnt some magical thing.
Its just a blend of the same things in all fuels in different amounts.

I knew a guy who blew up a bike on Av Gas,. Seized in about 3 minutes. Av Gas is Blue. His Oil was blue,. Guess what?

That blue gas had no oil. Pump gas is yellowish to clear.

aeffertz
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4/12/2018 10:37am Edited Date/Time 4/12/2018 11:27am
aeffertz wrote:
We tested the avgas in our two strokes after someone recommended it to us and it was considerably cheaper than the VP we usually run. Blew...
We tested the avgas in our two strokes after someone recommended it to us and it was considerably cheaper than the VP we usually run. Blew up two top ends while running it. Never blew a top end before since we keep the bikes in prestige shape and do the routine maintenance and never blew a top end after switching back to regular race gas.

We just mixed it the same as we were with the race gas but just seemed like too much of a coincidence to blow one relatively new top and and then a fresh top end consecutively while trying the avgas.
Asimo wrote:
Makes no sense because whats in av gas is the same compounds in most fuels. Fuel isnt some magical thing. Its just a blend of the...
Makes no sense because whats in av gas is the same compounds in most fuels. Fuel isnt some magical thing.
Its just a blend of the same things in all fuels in different amounts.

I knew a guy who blew up a bike on Av Gas,. Seized in about 3 minutes. Av Gas is Blue. His Oil was blue,. Guess what?

That blue gas had no oil. Pump gas is yellowish to clear.

Sounds possible but we run Klotz so it's easy to tell what gas is mixed and isn't. This was probably 10 years ago so my memory is admittedly a bit shoddy now so I dont remember the exact details.

Just remember throwing out the remaining AV gas that we had because it just didn't seem worth the fprice savings in fuel going with gas that's not intended for motorcycles.
TeamGreen
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4/12/2018 10:38am
aeffertz wrote:
We tested the avgas in our two strokes after someone recommended it to us and it was considerably cheaper than the VP we usually run. Blew...
We tested the avgas in our two strokes after someone recommended it to us and it was considerably cheaper than the VP we usually run. Blew up two top ends while running it. Never blew a top end before since we keep the bikes in prestige shape and do the routine maintenance and never blew a top end after switching back to regular race gas.

We just mixed it the same as we were with the race gas but just seemed like too much of a coincidence to blow one relatively new top and and then a fresh top end consecutively while trying the avgas.
Asimo wrote:
Makes no sense because whats in av gas is the same compounds in most fuels. Fuel isnt some magical thing. Its just a blend of the...
Makes no sense because whats in av gas is the same compounds in most fuels. Fuel isnt some magical thing.
Its just a blend of the same things in all fuels in different amounts.

I knew a guy who blew up a bike on Av Gas,. Seized in about 3 minutes. Av Gas is Blue. His Oil was blue,. Guess what?

That blue gas had no oil. Pump gas is yellowish to clear.

Anti-Freezing and anti-water agents...etc. are in Av-Gas.

Also, the mix/ratios of all those chemicals actually matters.

California pump fuel is ALL 10% (on avg) Ethanol ...or worse. There are Non-Ethanol fuels including some pump “93” rated fuels that are pretty good.

Downs Energy in Corona has VP 110 leaded in a pump for a pretty good price ($7-8 I think)
billyp330
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4/12/2018 10:42am
kb228 wrote:
I live in ohio and i can confidently say that pump gas causes my kx450 to not even run. Fuel filter or not, crap gets into...
I live in ohio and i can confidently say that pump gas causes my kx450 to not even run. Fuel filter or not, crap gets into something and blocks the injector and messes it up. If its not cam2 or vp it wont run. Period.
billyp330 wrote:
So you put pump gas in it and it wont start at all or does it run, but not run correctly? Any mods to your bike...
So you put pump gas in it and it wont start at all or does it run, but not run correctly?

Any mods to your bike? Such as high compression piston?
kb228 wrote:
It will start run fine and then never restart. Did this when it was stock and now has a high comp piston and stage 1 hot...
It will start run fine and then never restart. Did this when it was stock and now has a high comp piston and stage 1 hot cams and havent tried pump gas since before the motor mods
Something was definitely wrong with your bike then, my guess is that's why you now have motor mods.
kb228
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4/12/2018 10:46am
billyp330 wrote:
So you put pump gas in it and it wont start at all or does it run, but not run correctly? Any mods to your bike...
So you put pump gas in it and it wont start at all or does it run, but not run correctly?

Any mods to your bike? Such as high compression piston?
kb228 wrote:
It will start run fine and then never restart. Did this when it was stock and now has a high comp piston and stage 1 hot...
It will start run fine and then never restart. Did this when it was stock and now has a high comp piston and stage 1 hot cams and havent tried pump gas since before the motor mods
billyp330 wrote:
Something was definitely wrong with your bike then, my guess is that's why you now have motor mods.
Nothings wrong with the bike. Its the gas. I have motor mods because im a heavy rider and i like a lot of power.

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