01 cr250 vs newer 4 strokes

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8/27/2018 2:16 PM

Wow..that video was quite something. It was 450 Pro Class, too. What we saw there was a superior rider not being held back by a 10+ year old 2T in a field of modern 450s.

Regarding riding longer w/o getting tired on the 450's, I agree in general, but with caveats. After racing 2Ts for many years, while I find the 4Ts less tiring on acceleration, I had a problem getting more tired on the 4Ts due to engine braking and having to use my arms to push back every time I let off the gas. I had to relearn to ride the 4T a gear higher and install a Rekluse clutch to minimize that problem.

As for the 01 CR250 engine, it did not hit as hard as some of my former RM 250s which could be a light switch at times, but with the stock pipe there is a very noticeable midrange hit and a killer top end that does pull on the arms a bit. This can be completely addressed by a switch to an FMF pipe and a power valve cover spacer.. smooths out entire power band and redistributes the power by adding a bit more to the bottom. This is why I liked this engine so much.. with a few tweaks, it is so smooth and easy to ride, but still strong enough to gain the upper hand in any drag race with other 2T motors. I have not felt this way about any other 2T 250 motor. I feel that it is smooth enough that the 4T motor didn't have that much of an edge for me. The Gen 3 CR motor is smoother still but is does it while sacrificing some of the low end response and torque the 01 engine has.

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8/27/2018 5:12 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/27/2018 6:28 PM

mark_swart wrote:

Here's your answer on if the bike itself can still be competitive:

...more

WOW ! Talk about opening up a can of some whoop A$$ ! Isn't that the POS 3rd gen CR250r 2t engine taking it to modern 450 thumpers ? The dude falls in the 1st turn & is still able to come up on guys like they're standing still. Impressive ride to say the least in the Pro class.
Have owned the 4 major Japanese 250 2t brands & in IMHO it's hard to be beat a well set up 02-07 3rd gen CR250r. Chad Watts had RC4's 02-03 CR2's dialed & he killed it on those bikes..

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Speak softly and carry a big stick.

8/27/2018 6:07 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/27/2018 7:02 PM

Just found the 2nd moto of the same day June 27,2016. This time he got a much better start with being in 2nd position after the 1st turn & then takes over the lead pretty quickly. He almost got the hole shot in a field full of 450's with the CR2. The kid could ride ! Is he RV2's younger brother ? If so, anyone know why he hasn't raced the AMA SX / MX series ?
Hadn't seen these videos before.

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Speak softly and carry a big stick.

8/27/2018 8:08 PM

PTECH wrote:

Unless you're a die hard 2 stroke guy a newer 450 will do everything better than a 17 year old bike, its just going to cost ...more

omalley wrote:

I disagree. Ride a 2002-2007 CR250R with good suspension. I love my modern four stroke 450 but that bike will out-handle any ...more

PTECH wrote:

So you’re saying a 2007 yz250 isn’t a good 2 stroke? Lol ok. I guess the third gen cr was the only good one ever!

I’m saying an 02-07 CR will out handle a new 450. It’s lighter, quicker and more nimble. You denounced the 07 YZ yourself when you said you like your four stroke better in every way.
Incidentally yes, I think YZs are giant pieces of shit. Hated every YZ and YZF I’ve ridden, and it’s been quite a few.
As far as riding faster, longer on the modern 4-stroke I agree 100%. It’s why I bought a new KX. But I will never claim it out-handles my 02 CR250, because it doesn’t.
Unfortunately as a total package the two-stroke suffers because I’m only fast until I wear out, which happens alarmingly quickly these days...

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8/27/2018 9:03 PM

02-07 the CR 2 stroke was labelled the most hated factory bikes during that era.
Even RC4 says you cant polish a turd. when you flick back through photos of his 04 CR250. He had to do that many modifications to make it close to near what he wanted.
pretty sure there was a interview a year or two ago with Goose talking about that CR250 and how much Ricky hated it. he would get frustrated during testing because they couldn't get it to handle the way he wanted and pretty much had to change the gearing within the transmission to get the bikes power to be competitive through the rev range.

And the same issue came with the CR125 for Travis Preston and Byrner.

These days the new CRF450/250 is one of the most popular and best bike to ride.
Any one will tell you that. Probably one of the best looking factory bikes now too.



Every one is going to have a different opinion on bikes etc.. But as for factory bikes in there prime... unfortunately the Honda's weren't the go to bikes.


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8/27/2018 9:51 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/27/2018 9:52 PM

deanwhite51 wrote:

02-07 the CR 2 stroke was labelled the most hated factory bikes during that era.
Even RC4 says you cant polish a turd. when ...more

I could understand why RC would say those things about Honda since he felt disrespected at the end. I've talked to Chad Watt's about this engine & he is in the know since he was the mechanic for the HRC 02-03 CR2 bikes. He had good things to say with also understanding how to tune the engine.

BTW - RC was out with a leg injury for the 04 SX season & rode the 450 outdoors that year. Look up the 03 MXON on youtube & you'll see RC destroying the field on both motos with that turd against the thumpers..

I'm not surprised there is still nay sayers on the 02-07 CR2 models since they got bad reviews from the showroom floor. It started with the mx mags & has carried over to social media through the years. The vids posted on this thread aren't made up & it shows what these bikes are capable of. From Neville Bradshaw's basically stock 02 bike with a dep pipe & suspension work to RC4's HRC models it's hard to dispute the race results & facts...

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Speak softly and carry a big stick.

8/27/2018 10:16 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/27/2018 10:24 PM

omalley wrote:

I disagree. Ride a 2002-2007 CR250R with good suspension. I love my modern four stroke 450 but that bike will out-handle any ...more

PTECH wrote:

So you’re saying a 2007 yz250 isn’t a good 2 stroke? Lol ok. I guess the third gen cr was the only good one ever!

omalley wrote:

I’m saying an 02-07 CR will out handle a new 450. It’s lighter, quicker and more nimble. You denounced the 07 YZ yourself when ...more

“Handling” is subjective. You really can’t measure it. It’s a feeling. Obviously you love your cr250 and think all Yamaha’s are pieces of shit. That’s great. As for me I’m sure I can corner as well on my 450sx as I could on any of my previous bikes. I actually liked my YZ a lot. I never denounced it but i do think a modern 4 stoke is better. More torque, better gas mileage, better brakes and electric start are a few reasons that come to mind why. Now obviously my yz was probably 20 lbs lighter than my 450sxf but the raw weight of a bike on the scale doesn’t mean everything.

The original poster said his bike was hard to ride fast. I take that to mean it takes a lot of energy. Riding my 450 doesn’t tire me out like my old 2 strokes did, I don’t know exactly why but as a weekend warrior not in race shape, not getting arm pump and not being worn out quicker is worth a lot to me. To me, more riding time = more fun = better bike, even if maybe the bike doesn’t “handle” as well.

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8/27/2018 11:24 PM

deanwhite51 wrote:

02-07 the CR 2 stroke was labelled the most hated factory bikes during that era.
Even RC4 says you cant polish a turd. when ...more

H4L wrote:

I could understand why RC would say those things about Honda since he felt disrespected at the end. I've talked to Chad Watt's ...more

It wasnt just Ricky that had trouble setting up the Hondas.. it as majority of the team riders..

there was a lot more work then just suspension and a pipe on them bikes... and on that note, the CR125 do have perks with the motors and have won a few things over time on the cr125. they are really popular still to this day in the gokarts.
I never go by magazine reviews because half the time there full of shit.

i owned and raced a 2007 CR125, enjoyed it and got good results on it. port and polished, A kit suspension and the rest of the bits and pieces you add to a bike.
I didn't hate the bike but didnt love it either... They have a known issue for the alloy cracking around the head stem as well.

After selling the CR and moving on to a different manufacturer... you notice the lack of handling and bottom end within the motors.


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8/27/2018 11:51 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2018 12:36 AM

deanwhite51 wrote:

It wasnt just Ricky that had trouble setting up the Hondas.. it as majority of the team riders..

there was a lot more work ...more

1st of heard of frames cracking ? Have owned (7) 02-07 CR2's & have never had any issues as they've been bullet proof bikes. Locally never heard of any issues with frames even to this date.

"02-07 the CR 2 stroke was labelled the most hated factory bikes during that era"
Huh - haven't heard that either. Any proof ?

As far as handling / turning goes I haven't ridden on a better chassis than the 3rd gen AF Honda. This is going back to my 1st big bike an 84 RM125 & then moving to an 87 Cr250r. A 93 Cr250 steel chassis bike owned was very good, but not as stable as the 3rd gen AF. Have owned about 20 bikes in between with also being fortunate to have ridden some well set up 2t's. Have test ridden on a 17 KTM250SX & 17 Husky 250TC & didn't see what the rave is about. Personally I wasn't impressed with the Euro bikes.

An 04 YZ250 owned with Enzo suspension & PC engine mods was one of the better bikes with handling, but didn't turn well in comparison to the 3rd gen AF CR2.

I thought we were talking about CR250's ? I have no experience with the 02-07 CR125's, but can say the CR2 is an exceptional mx bike with mods.

You can also look up the Blackfoot Honda team from Canada that had factory support. Jean Sebastien Roy dominated on the 02 + CR2's with winning multiple championships. Hard to dispute - discredit the proven track record & success the 3rd gen CR has had.

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Speak softly and carry a big stick.

8/28/2018 12:21 AM

In my opinion 02-07 CR 250 is one of the best handling bikes with great front end traction and good straight line stability once the suspension is dialed.

Biggest problem with these bikes is the motor that has short power band. 02-03 motor has great bottom end power but revs out quickly. 04-07 has opposite power band character with not much low end power but pulls great on higher rpm's. I actually prefer the 02-03 power band over newer ones because it is much easier to ride

This is my brothers 2002 CR250
Photo

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8/28/2018 2:55 AM

b_kowalsk wrote:

To be fair the new gen KTM/Husky 2 strokes will outperform a 2001 cr250 in every aspect as well. The Honda wasn't the best in ...more

H4L wrote:

I disagree.

This is suppose to be the worst CR engine produced according to many going up against the mighty 17 KTM's & ...more

Neville Bradshaw
 "I thought I'll get a Husky or Ktm cause they are so much more advanced"

Mike Kras
"Yes, of course old man can still ride. If he has a better bike like a KTM or Husky, he will ride better"
 
Both quotes are from the video you posted as proof the old cr's are as good as the new KTM.

In this 2018 race Neville is on a yz and he actually finishes ahead of Kras in moto2.



Honda 4 life......Honda doesn't care that you love their 2 strokes. I wish they did! I'd gladly jump back on a Honda if they offered up some new 2 strokes.
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8/28/2018 7:40 AM

"Honda 4 life......Honda doesn't care that you love their 2 strokes. I wish they did! I'd gladly jump back on a Honda if they offered up some new 2 strokes"

FI2T - I see you have a KTM in your avatar pic.. Don't take it personal..

The KTM's are so much more advanced over any other bike (sarcasm) that Neville shouldn't have even been that close on a 15 yr. old basic stock bike. He pushed the prior yrs. champ on a new KTM that I would think had some goodies on it. This is at a high pro level of mx racing in their country.
Yes - the rider has a lot to do with it, but if the bike was such a turd it shouldn't even be competitive. It really shows that the 02-07 CR2's are that good & KTM - Husky have just now caught up to the Honda engineering of 15 yrs. ago..

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Speak softly and carry a big stick.

8/28/2018 8:11 AM

Every rider is different so What is more important to you?

Lap times or Fun?

I love my 01 YZ250 and have a lot of fun reving the crap out of it and I still have it.

When I went from smoker to the 08 YZ450f I found a 4st will drop lap times. The 4st front ends stick better so cornering is faster.

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8/28/2018 9:01 AM

H4L wrote:

"Honda 4 life......Honda doesn't care that you love their 2 strokes. I wish they did! I'd gladly jump back on a Honda if they ...more

I heard no sarcasm. He beat him on a Yamaha. It's good that you agree the rider makes a difference. I currently am building an 06 cr250 (build thread coming soon)... I've had 3, they are great bikes.
Yes, I have an 18 300xc, first ktm I've owned and my favorite bike I've owned yet. Dirt bikes are good and we should probably just agree to disagree.

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8/28/2018 9:25 AM

H4L wrote:

I disagree.

This is suppose to be the worst CR engine produced according to many going up against the mighty 17 KTM's & ...more

Weird that would be the thoughts on that year engine. The '01 CR250 engine is the most in-demand for use in the Micro Sprint/Midget cars because they rev forever & put out a ton of power. We stroke them to 270cc, pull the powervalve & run them on Methanol though.

I traded our '08 CR450 for a second '00 CR250 so my son and I can run the same bikes. He'll race a few times a season in B/C classes and will hold his own against newer equipment. Like another poster said, we all know it's all about the rider, especially in the local, non A classes. Once we did the suspension on them, both of us just became comfortable with their handling quirks.



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8/28/2018 6:44 PM

FI2T wrote:

I heard no sarcasm. He beat him on a Yamaha. It's good that you agree the rider makes a difference. I currently am building an ...more

Agree to disagree. Let's keep this thread civil..

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Speak softly and carry a big stick.

8/28/2018 7:08 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2018 7:10 PM

Neverclear wrote:

Weird that would be the thoughts on that year engine. The '01 CR250 engine is the most in-demand for use in the Micro ...more

Have you heard of Ian Harrison ? He's well known in the Karting racing world & builds some powerful CR2 case reed engines.

"The motor is based on Honda CR250 Series Production Crankcase Induction Motor manufactured between 2002 and 2004 inclusive".

http://www.250superkarts.com/BSA250Superstock.htm



If I'm not mistaken I believe they put out about 71 BHP.






Had an 01 CR250r with mods as well as a good friend that had one who recently passed. We would race together & the 03 CR2 with mods would pull his 01 on the straights by a few bike lengths to a turn. The 03 also has more lowend power in comparison to both the 01 models. This is comparing apples to apples with all 3 engines tuned.
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Speak softly and carry a big stick.

8/28/2018 7:17 PM

H4L wrote:

I disagree.

This is suppose to be the worst CR engine produced according to many going up against the mighty 17 KTM's & ...more

Neverclear wrote:

Weird that would be the thoughts on that year engine. The '01 CR250 engine is the most in-demand for use in the Micro ...more

H4L wrote:

Have you heard of Ian Harrison ? He's well known in the Karting racing world & builds some powerful CR2 case reed engines. ...more

Man.... Photo

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8/28/2018 7:20 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/28/2018 7:23 PM

JWACK wrote:

Man.... Photo

Are you an internet tuff guy ? Keyboard warrior ? Easy to hide behind the monitor when you don't have a spine...

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Speak softly and carry a big stick.

8/28/2018 7:28 PM

Loved the motor and handling of my '00 and '01 CR250's. I tested the '02 when it came out and was unimpressed and switched to Yamaha's.

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8/28/2018 8:00 PM

H4L wrote:

Are you an internet tuff guy ? Keyboard warrior ? Easy to hide behind the monitor when you don't have a spine...

I'm super tuff. Just not as tuff and strong as a gen 3 cr250 engine ?

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8/28/2018 8:09 PM

JWACK wrote:

I'm super tuff. Just not as tuff and strong as a gen 3 cr250 engine ?

I can see you're a real bad ass hiding behind the keyboard & monitor... It's funny with guys like you that can talk shit, but can't back it up in person..

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Speak softly and carry a big stick.

8/28/2018 8:21 PM

H4L wrote:

I disagree.

This is suppose to be the worst CR engine produced according to many going up against the mighty 17 KTM's & ...more

Neverclear wrote:

Weird that would be the thoughts on that year engine. The '01 CR250 engine is the most in-demand for use in the Micro ...more

H4L wrote:

Have you heard of Ian Harrison ? He's well known in the Karting racing world & builds some powerful CR2 case reed engines. ...more

I was trying to hold back as I know you really like that Gen3 engine, but the comment that the case reed engine has more low end than the 01 piston port engine is just a bit of a reach for me. You are in a very small minority there, Bud. A case reed design makes for better high end power with some tradeoffs. Anyone familiar with the 2002+ engines knows they can be made to go with a bit of modification and a good rider can win races on it (like in that video), but there aren't many that I have heard claim that it is an all around better engine than the '01.

Ryuuichiro Takahama did all the race testing for the 3rd gen CR250. I was at the Honda track in Japan the day that Honda pulled 5 new 2002 CR250s out of inventory for the rest of the factory and support riders to test several months before the release of the bike in Japan (US launched about 6 mths after Japan in those days). They also pulled 3 new 2001 CR250s out of inventory that day to test them back to back. Everyone liked the 2002 chassis and suspension, but no one was excited about the new engine. This is back to back testing with brand new 01's and 02's at the Honda track. The 02 engine was very smooth and electric with no hit anywhere. Honda was intentionally trying to make the bikes easier to ride for the broad consumer base. I found that big jumps out of a corner that were easy on the 01, were a real struggle on the 2002.. I had to rail the corner much faster to clear the jump, while on the 2001, I only had to blip the throttle just before the jump to clear it. I wrote a first test for the 2002 on the old Fresh Dirt site and described the 2002 motor as more like a 125 on steroids as it didn't have the torquey feel of the old piston port engine. There was a reason that many people were trying to stuff an 01 engine in the 3rd gen frame. It is a lot of work and I am sure they weren't doing it for nothing.

Like I said in a separate thread.. there are some people in the world who like broccoli and I will just never understand why smile

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8/28/2018 8:25 PM

H4L wrote:

I can see you're a real bad ass hiding behind the keyboard & monitor... It's funny with guys like you that can talk shit, ...more

Here is my gen 3 after some motor work. whistling Raped ape I tell you.! Post up a helmet cam of your gen 3 and I'll post one! You will end up with arm pump just watchin. Mmmhhmmm Photo

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8/28/2018 8:31 PM

Tokyo_Tiddler wrote:

I was trying to hold back as I know you really like that Gen3 engine, but the comment that the case reed engine has more low ...more

I can understand why you would feel that way. If I had that much money tied up on a bike I'd take offense with any negative remarks made as well.. cool

Many like yourself will continue to try to disprove the bikes success, but as said before it's hard to discredit the track record that CR has... wink

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Speak softly and carry a big stick.

8/28/2018 8:34 PM

JWACK wrote:

Here is my gen 3 after some motor work. whistling Raped ape I tell you.! Post up a helmet cam of your gen 3 and I'll post one! You will ...more

laughing I can now see why you got your panties in a bunch. Let me guess that's an 00-01 CR2 engine in a 3rd gen chassis..
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Speak softly and carry a big stick.

8/28/2018 8:41 PM

I like my 01/03 hybrid as well. Runs and handles great.

But, my 2017 Husqvarna TC250 does everything better.

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8/28/2018 8:49 PM

The logic is wandering now.. I wasn't talking about the bike I just built this year, I was talking about the year 2001 in Japan at the Honda track, testing stock bikes back to back taken right out of the factory warehouse, with the Honda riders. I wouldn't bother saying anything, but only jump in when you give advice to others that the 01 isn't a good bike and how wonderful the case reed engine is. I feel the need to jump in and give some balancing opinion.

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8/28/2018 8:54 PM

erik_94COBRA wrote:

I like my 01/03 hybrid as well. Runs and handles great.

But, my 2017 Husqvarna TC250 does everything better.

I'm thinking of picking up a new 18 tc 250 this weekend.! On sale for 7k. I didn't like my 16 ktm. But I think that's just because it was a modern 4 stroke and not a modern 2 stroke lol.

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8/28/2018 8:57 PM

H4L wrote: laughing I can now see why you got your panties in a bunch. Let me guess that's an 00-01 CR2 engine in a 3rd gen chassis..

I'm really just giving you shit man. Your in love with that gen 3. And that's ok.

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