Luxon MX KTM 150SX Build - Engine assembly, Airbox mods

Bruce372
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3/6/2019 10:14pm
Luxon MX wrote:
Similarly, here's the power-valve cover: Setup 1: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/03/06/330128/s1200_81_pv_s1.jpg[/img] Setup 2: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/03/06/330131/s1200_82_pv_s2.jpg[/img] The clutch cover takes three setups. Here's setup 1: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/03/06/330133/s1200_83_clutch_s1.jpg[/img] Setup 2: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/03/06/330129/s1200_84_clutch_s2.jpg[/img] And finally...
Similarly, here's the power-valve cover:

Setup 1:


Setup 2:


The clutch cover takes three setups. Here's setup 1:


Setup 2:


And finally setup 3 for the oil fill port. This takes another angled fixture:


As you've probably noticed, it takes a few custom parts (fixtures) in order to make the part your interested in. Add this to design time, programming time, material costs, anodize costs, etc. and you can better understand why one-off part costs are so expensive! Or why no companies are really chomping at the bit to make your 1996 CR125 ignition cover (or substitute whatever random part you'd like here).

Here are all three covers (well, 6 really, top and bottom of each) machined up and ready for anodize. These went off today and will be ready to go next week:

Damn dude, that's a lot of chipotle worth of machining! ?
2
Luxon MX
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3/26/2019 8:42am
Been a busy few weeks, so haven't had time to post an update. But we've still been making progress.

Made a rough prototype of a new shock preload ring the other day. This gets rid of the plastic adjuster that comes stock, but still uses the stock lock clamp (black part). It also integrates a thrust bearing so the spring can rotate as it compresses allowing for a more free movement.

This was a quick and dirty prototype and there are some changes necessary yet. Most notably the thrust bearing area needs to be slimmed down a touch to fit with some shock reservoirs (MX Tech Tank shown has a larger diameter than stock). KTM also uses an odd (buttress) thread form on the shock since they're using a plastic ring. It's a smart move on their end, but requires some special tooling to cut which we're still waiting on. I cheated on this one and used a double chamfer cutter to mill the threads. Not good enough to use, but good enough to thread on for a fit check. Once we get tooling and revise the design a bit we will start making a few available for sale, but that's at least a month out.

Also shown is a preview of some coatings and anodize on the shock parts.






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Luxon MX
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3/26/2019 8:47am Edited Date/Time 3/26/2019 8:49am
We also tore into the engine a bit more yesterday and are slowly but surely getting this all apart for coatings and finishing. While the transmission may bear the Pankl name, there's nothing particularly fancy about the surface treatment, as suspected. We'll be fixing that, along with various other friction parts with some WPC treatment. As soon as that gets back we can start getting this thing back together.

You can see the completed covers from our previous post in here as well. These have been hard anodized and laser-etched with our logo.




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rjg
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3/26/2019 10:59am Edited Date/Time 3/26/2019 11:01am
I have no clue if it makes a difference or not, but what about a bearing for the spring to rotate on as part of the adjuster or is there already one in there? Seems pretty trick.

The Shop

Luxon MX
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3/26/2019 12:50pm
rjg wrote:
I have no clue if it makes a difference or not, but what about a bearing for the spring to rotate on as part of the...
I have no clue if it makes a difference or not, but what about a bearing for the spring to rotate on as part of the adjuster or is there already one in there? Seems pretty trick.
Yes, that's the thrust bearing I mentioned. You can see the race of it in the second photo. Here's a better view without the bearing race (the preload adjuster is anodized blue now):


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rjg
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3/26/2019 1:57pm
Nice going! Man that is sweet!
Jrewing
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3/27/2019 2:15am
rjg wrote:
I have no clue if it makes a difference or not, but what about a bearing for the spring to rotate on as part of the...
I have no clue if it makes a difference or not, but what about a bearing for the spring to rotate on as part of the adjuster or is there already one in there? Seems pretty trick.
Luxon MX wrote:
Yes, that's the thrust bearing I mentioned. You can see the race of it in the second photo. Here's a better view without the bearing race...
Yes, that's the thrust bearing I mentioned. You can see the race of it in the second photo. Here's a better view without the bearing race (the preload adjuster is anodized blue now):


That’s ace!
3/27/2019 9:11am
Luxon MX wrote:
Here are a few of the parts we've got lined up for the bike. Having had the last generation 150, we have a pretty good idea...
Here are a few of the parts we've got lined up for the bike. Having had the last generation 150, we have a pretty good idea of what worked well before and what we liked/disliked, so most of the part decisions were driven by that. Additionally one of the primary goal in this build is to reduce weight wherever possible. The previously mentioned spreadsheet has been really valuable in that as we've been cataloging all the parts with info for how much the stock parts weigh, how much the replacement parts weigh, and how much everything costs. From this we can calculate cost per gram of weight savings, which reveals some interesting points. I'll post up the full list once everything is finalized.

First up is tires. We went with Michelin Starcross tires over the stock Dunlops. Having run the Michelin tires on the last 150, I know that they work rather well for a lot of the so-cal tracks. But when you look at the weight reduction, it's an easy decision. These are by far the most efficient weight reduction for the price; it's rotational and un-sprung weight too! Switching out the Dunlop tires for these saves 430 g (0.95 lb) on the front and 630 g (1.39 lb) on the rear. That's huge! The resulting cost per gram saved is about $0.18. In comparison, cost per gram for titanium bolts is on the order of $1 - $4.

Next up is pipe and silencer. FMF partners with KTM on their Powerparts line so they have a bit of an advantage over the other manufacturers in development and time to market. We used FMF on the last 150 with good results, so that's what we went with again here. The works pipe actually saves a lot more weight than the titanium silencer, which was surprising. The pipe saves 340 g (0.75 lb) while the silencer only saves 95 g (0.21 lb).


Why no shorty?

I think even lighter (maybe not)
Sorry late to the party - hadn't kept up, still reading through.
Luxon MX
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3/27/2019 10:31am
Why no shorty?

I think even lighter (maybe not)
Sorry late to the party - hadn't kept up, still reading through.
There wasn't one available at the time. Plus I can always make this one into a shorty should I want!
3/27/2019 11:02am
Why no shorty?

I think even lighter (maybe not)
Sorry late to the party - hadn't kept up, still reading through.
Luxon MX wrote:
There wasn't one available at the time. Plus I can always make this one into a shorty should I want!
I mean their non 2.1 style - just personal preference but I hated this new one "4 stroke esque" marketting ploy

Obviously it's a nice part etc etc... call me old school
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3/27/2019 11:46am Edited Date/Time 3/27/2019 11:46am
Why no shorty?

I think even lighter (maybe not)
Sorry late to the party - hadn't kept up, still reading through.
144 and 150 cc mx bikes runs better with large muffles. The shorty cut too soon the top end power.
3/27/2019 11:51am
Why no shorty?

I think even lighter (maybe not)
Sorry late to the party - hadn't kept up, still reading through.
144 and 150 cc mx bikes runs better with large muffles. The shorty cut too soon the top end power.
Hmmm

Wanna bring your theories to my dyno?
3
cdoggy81
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3/27/2019 12:12pm
You beat me to it Derek... LoL
3/27/2019 12:39pm Edited Date/Time 3/28/2019 5:28am
Why no shorty?

I think even lighter (maybe not)
Sorry late to the party - hadn't kept up, still reading through.
144 and 150 cc mx bikes runs better with large muffles. The shorty cut too soon the top end power.
Hmmm

Wanna bring your theories to my dyno?
back in 2007 I install a Athena 144 kit(YZ125) for a customer and he is happy with the bike until one day I see the bike on the track. I stopped the guy and I told him give a ride to test it and I felt what I was listening, a big noise at high RPMs and the bike move slow. I asked him if he have the stock large muffler with him and he said yes. I change the muffler by the stock and the difference was awesome. I felt more power in the entire powerband. Try it in the dyno, I'm sure that you don't go back to shorty mufflers for your big bores 125s.
Bruce372
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3/27/2019 12:56pm
Well Bill, there goes your nice thread.... off the rails WoohooWoohooWoohooWoohoo
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blackdiamond
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3/27/2019 1:23pm
Luxon MX wrote:
Similarly, here's the power-valve cover: Setup 1: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/03/06/330128/s1200_81_pv_s1.jpg[/img] Setup 2: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/03/06/330131/s1200_82_pv_s2.jpg[/img] The clutch cover takes three setups. Here's setup 1: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/03/06/330133/s1200_83_clutch_s1.jpg[/img] Setup 2: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/03/06/330129/s1200_84_clutch_s2.jpg[/img] And finally...
Similarly, here's the power-valve cover:

Setup 1:


Setup 2:


The clutch cover takes three setups. Here's setup 1:


Setup 2:


And finally setup 3 for the oil fill port. This takes another angled fixture:


As you've probably noticed, it takes a few custom parts (fixtures) in order to make the part your interested in. Add this to design time, programming time, material costs, anodize costs, etc. and you can better understand why one-off part costs are so expensive! Or why no companies are really chomping at the bit to make your 1996 CR125 ignition cover (or substitute whatever random part you'd like here).

Here are all three covers (well, 6 really, top and bottom of each) machined up and ready for anodize. These went off today and will be ready to go next week:

This stuff looks like jewelry. Amazing work brother!
3
RONJ OSE
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4/16/2019 3:07pm
Quick question .
how much cerakote did it take to do the frame?
Luxon MX
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4/16/2019 4:46pm
RONJ OSE wrote:
Quick question .
how much cerakote did it take to do the frame?
Not much, probably about 4 oz. I bought the 16 oz size and have a lot left.



More updates coming, just been a bit busy with other things. But still making progress on the build!
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rjg
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4/26/2019 11:51pm
About the shock preload adjuster. Can you make a mark on the adjuster and the spring so we can get an idea how much the spring rotates after a ride?
Luxon MX
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4/27/2019 10:12am
rjg wrote:
About the shock preload adjuster. Can you make a mark on the adjuster and the spring so we can get an idea how much the spring...
About the shock preload adjuster. Can you make a mark on the adjuster and the spring so we can get an idea how much the spring rotates after a ride?
Well the bottom of the spring won't have a bearing, only the top. So in theory, the bottom stays fixed, but as the spring compresses the top bearing doesn't allows any reaction of torsional forces (in the spring axis). This creates a more "free" (consistent) spring.

So you really shouldn't see the spring change positions before and after a ride, though I bet it will just because things are bouncing around and constantly loading and unloading. The best thing to do is stick the shock on a dyno and compress it showing the spring rotating with respect to the shock body, but we don't have a dyno available to do that. Maybe someone else does?
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rjg
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4/29/2019 10:32am
Thanks for the response and the explanation. I've always wondered about the spring rotation, how influential it is on the ride. I was thinking the same things as you when it comes to vibrations and bouncing around. A Dyno would be awesome but I am in no way nearby one or close to purchasing one either. I am a home tuner. I guess the next best thing would be a back to back test with and without the bearing installed, maybe I will get to try this one day. Anyways, Thank you again, and just wanted to say that this bike will be a exquisite jewel in the Moto community. Great Job and keep it up!
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Jrewing
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4/29/2019 3:42pm
rjg wrote:
About the shock preload adjuster. Can you make a mark on the adjuster and the spring so we can get an idea how much the spring...
About the shock preload adjuster. Can you make a mark on the adjuster and the spring so we can get an idea how much the spring rotates after a ride?
Luxon MX wrote:
Well the bottom of the spring won't have a bearing, only the top. So in theory, the bottom stays fixed, but as the spring compresses the...
Well the bottom of the spring won't have a bearing, only the top. So in theory, the bottom stays fixed, but as the spring compresses the top bearing doesn't allows any reaction of torsional forces (in the spring axis). This creates a more "free" (consistent) spring.

So you really shouldn't see the spring change positions before and after a ride, though I bet it will just because things are bouncing around and constantly loading and unloading. The best thing to do is stick the shock on a dyno and compress it showing the spring rotating with respect to the shock body, but we don't have a dyno available to do that. Maybe someone else does?
For sure made a difference when I was down hill mtb racing. Off camber traction was better.
4/30/2019 10:02am
Luxon MX wrote:
Well the bottom of the spring won't have a bearing, only the top. So in theory, the bottom stays fixed, but as the spring compresses the...
Well the bottom of the spring won't have a bearing, only the top. So in theory, the bottom stays fixed, but as the spring compresses the top bearing doesn't allows any reaction of torsional forces (in the spring axis). This creates a more "free" (consistent) spring.

So you really shouldn't see the spring change positions before and after a ride, though I bet it will just because things are bouncing around and constantly loading and unloading. The best thing to do is stick the shock on a dyno and compress it showing the spring rotating with respect to the shock body, but we don't have a dyno available to do that. Maybe someone else does?
I've found just revving the bike on the stand at various rpms you can hit resonances in the spring it will rotate around...so while I totally agree on all said about operation of the bearing - and how in an isolated system is should stay put - I think often we see them move around just due to these resonances..


Bike build is looking killer.
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Luxon MX
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4/30/2019 11:24am
I've found just revving the bike on the stand at various rpms you can hit resonances in the spring it will rotate around...so while I totally...
I've found just revving the bike on the stand at various rpms you can hit resonances in the spring it will rotate around...so while I totally agree on all said about operation of the bearing - and how in an isolated system is should stay put - I think often we see them move around just due to these resonances..


Bike build is looking killer.
Yeah, the spring is certainly moving around a bunch while riding. The idea with the bearing is to keep it consistent - the bearing ensures that the spring is always free to rotate. Without it, you might hit one bump where the spring rotates and one of similar size where it does not. You'll have two different spring rates over both of those bumps as a result.

If you were able to lock the spring in place on both ends, it would be just as good as a spring with a bearing on one (or both) ends from a consistency standpoint. The bearing seems to be the easier solution. But I also want to make sure it's robust and well sealed too. No sense in going to all that trouble for it to gum up with dirt and no longer rotate! Still ironing out the details of all that at the moment.
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pCp 252
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4/30/2019 9:23pm
Luxon MX wrote:
Yeah, the spring is certainly moving around a bunch while riding. The idea with the bearing is to keep it consistent - the bearing ensures that...
Yeah, the spring is certainly moving around a bunch while riding. The idea with the bearing is to keep it consistent - the bearing ensures that the spring is always free to rotate. Without it, you might hit one bump where the spring rotates and one of similar size where it does not. You'll have two different spring rates over both of those bumps as a result.

If you were able to lock the spring in place on both ends, it would be just as good as a spring with a bearing on one (or both) ends from a consistency standpoint. The bearing seems to be the easier solution. But I also want to make sure it's robust and well sealed too. No sense in going to all that trouble for it to gum up with dirt and no longer rotate! Still ironing out the details of all that at the moment.
Any comments as to why shock springs aren’t indexed in place ? I had the Race Tech bearing but eventually it became rough and I removed it.
Luxon MX
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5/1/2019 8:00am
pCp 252 wrote:
Any comments as to why shock springs aren’t indexed in place ? I had the Race Tech bearing but eventually it became rough and I removed...
Any comments as to why shock springs aren’t indexed in place ? I had the Race Tech bearing but eventually it became rough and I removed it.
From an OEM standpoint, the issue is likely cost. It's cheap and easy to make a round spring, adding another part to stop rotation is more money. And, while this is a performance gain, it's not an enormous gain by any means. So the cost/benefit isn't justifiable.

From an aftermarket standpoint, the issue is geometric. Everything is round - the spring, the spring collars on both ends, the shock, etc. To stop rotation, you need to stop it on both ends, which means locking the spring to something round that is then somehow locked to the shock.It would be a lot of parts to produce and lock together and wouldn't likely end up being very elegant.

So instead of locking everything together to stop rotation, we can "simply" add a bearing to allow rotation and achieve the same result (consistency). Most modern forks do this with a very similar bearing at the end of the spring. But that's in a well oiled, clean, and controlled environment. The challenge with the shock bearing is keeping is well sealed, which sounds like the issue you had with the Race Tech bearing.
shuggs
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5/1/2019 10:16am
Def a drool worthy build
dmm698
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5/2/2019 12:52pm
I've found just revving the bike on the stand at various rpms you can hit resonances in the spring it will rotate around...so while I totally...
I've found just revving the bike on the stand at various rpms you can hit resonances in the spring it will rotate around...so while I totally agree on all said about operation of the bearing - and how in an isolated system is should stay put - I think often we see them move around just due to these resonances..


Bike build is looking killer.
Luxon MX wrote:
Yeah, the spring is certainly moving around a bunch while riding. The idea with the bearing is to keep it consistent - the bearing ensures that...
Yeah, the spring is certainly moving around a bunch while riding. The idea with the bearing is to keep it consistent - the bearing ensures that the spring is always free to rotate. Without it, you might hit one bump where the spring rotates and one of similar size where it does not. You'll have two different spring rates over both of those bumps as a result.

If you were able to lock the spring in place on both ends, it would be just as good as a spring with a bearing on one (or both) ends from a consistency standpoint. The bearing seems to be the easier solution. But I also want to make sure it's robust and well sealed too. No sense in going to all that trouble for it to gum up with dirt and no longer rotate! Still ironing out the details of all that at the moment.
While I agree on the cost stand point, and correct me if i'm wrong here, but isnt the entire reason for the balance shaft on the 2017+ 250 SX due to shock spring resonance? Thought they went to a balance shaft to keep the shock spring out of resonance, which is a hell of a lot more money in parts than the spring would of cost. Cool stuff in this thread!
Luxon MX
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5/2/2019 1:37pm
dmm698 wrote:
While I agree on the cost stand point, and correct me if i'm wrong here, but isnt the entire reason for the balance shaft on the...
While I agree on the cost stand point, and correct me if i'm wrong here, but isnt the entire reason for the balance shaft on the 2017+ 250 SX due to shock spring resonance? Thought they went to a balance shaft to keep the shock spring out of resonance, which is a hell of a lot more money in parts than the spring would of cost. Cool stuff in this thread!
The balance shaft was added to reduce vibration in general. But as you mention, one of the big benefits of that is the reduction of resonance in the spring. But that didn't change the spring's resonant frequency at all, it just lowered the excitation amplitude.

There wasn't a change they could have made to the spring directly to increase its resonant frequency out of the excitation (RPM) range as that would completely change the spring rate. And even if that were possible, they'd miss out on the many benefits of reduced engine vibration.

It comes back to cost/benefit. The cost of the balance shaft was justified in the overall reduced vibration, a big side benefit of that being reduction in spring vibration. The benefit of locking a spring in place to keep the rate consistent is much smaller in comparison to the benefit in reducing spring vibration due to resonance. So even if doing so costs far less than adding a balance shaft, the benefit is far less as well. So it doesn't make sense to do so. Hope that all makes sense!
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