Full Tilt TM Racing Two Stroke Build(s) Update: Dirt Magazine "Two Stroke Tuesday"

JMX82
Posts
1386
Joined
5/9/2013
Location
Hyllykallio FI
9/2/2019 9:25pm
Those are really impressive horsepower numbers!
9/3/2019 3:29am
Here is a pic of the dyno results of the Varner engine package on the TM 144 vs a stock KTM 150SX [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/09/02/370433/s1200_IMG_5553.jpg[/img]
Here is a pic of the dyno results of the Varner engine package on the TM 144 vs a stock KTM 150SX


Stock looks impressive enough. Must be a blast to ride!
blackdiamond
Posts
1363
Joined
11/5/2015
Location
Grapevine , TX US
9/3/2019 11:36am
Here is a pic of the dyno results of the Varner engine package on the TM 144 vs a stock KTM 150SX [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/09/02/370433/s1200_IMG_5553.jpg[/img]
Here is a pic of the dyno results of the Varner engine package on the TM 144 vs a stock KTM 150SX


toold&slow wrote:
Stock looks impressive enough. Must be a blast to ride!
It's fun because just when you think it's done pulling it just keeps going and going and going Woohoo
3
racerx317
Posts
225
Joined
1/4/2016
Location
Thompsons Station, TN US
9/3/2019 5:55pm
That is true and i’d definitely not want to harm that awesome power up-top. The only pic i have of a TM 144 with Ti2 silencer...
That is true and i’d definitely not want to harm that awesome power up-top.

The only pic i have of a TM 144 with Ti2 silencer looks a sensible length though. Even utilises the second subframe bracket too.
I was wrong about the PC silencer for the 125/144. It is actually longer than stock (not shorter like I thought it was) I just did...
I was wrong about the PC silencer for the 125/144. It is actually longer than stock (not shorter like I thought it was)

I just did a ton of testing a few weeks ago at Varner Motorsports. We tested pipes, silencers, cylinder heads, fuel, jetting, cylinder porting, timing, ignitions, you name it. After 60 dyno runs (mostly on the 144) we picked up over 4 HP on both bikes.

The best combo on both the 144 was the stock pipe and PC silencer. On the 144 the HGS pipe that comes stock was clearly superior to the PC on the stock and modified cylinder. The stock pipe makes over 3/4 HP more and extends the power- band another 800 RPM.

This pic below is the PC pipe/PC silencer (red) vs the HGS pipe/PC silencer (blue)



The PC pipe is very noticeably different on the track as well and the dyno results prove my son’s feedback was right on. After Varner shared your results with the HGS pipe and PC silencer combo... we threw it on and it was noticeably better on the track than with the HGS silencer. I’m not sure why we didn’t try that but I think we were just frustrated with the PC stuff and just took it off and tossed it in a corner after 1 ride. Great set up and Varner’s mods make the bike really ridiculous. The only difference is that we run straight C12 (VP Blue) in ours with great results because I’m not a fan of blending fuel.
Really amazing builds on both bikes! You have to be super happy with the results.
1

The Shop

blackdiamond
Posts
1363
Joined
11/5/2015
Location
Grapevine , TX US
9/4/2019 11:07am
That is true and i’d definitely not want to harm that awesome power up-top. The only pic i have of a TM 144 with Ti2 silencer...
That is true and i’d definitely not want to harm that awesome power up-top.

The only pic i have of a TM 144 with Ti2 silencer looks a sensible length though. Even utilises the second subframe bracket too.
I was wrong about the PC silencer for the 125/144. It is actually longer than stock (not shorter like I thought it was) I just did...
I was wrong about the PC silencer for the 125/144. It is actually longer than stock (not shorter like I thought it was)

I just did a ton of testing a few weeks ago at Varner Motorsports. We tested pipes, silencers, cylinder heads, fuel, jetting, cylinder porting, timing, ignitions, you name it. After 60 dyno runs (mostly on the 144) we picked up over 4 HP on both bikes.

The best combo on both the 144 was the stock pipe and PC silencer. On the 144 the HGS pipe that comes stock was clearly superior to the PC on the stock and modified cylinder. The stock pipe makes over 3/4 HP more and extends the power- band another 800 RPM.

This pic below is the PC pipe/PC silencer (red) vs the HGS pipe/PC silencer (blue)



racerx317 wrote:
The PC pipe is very noticeably different on the track as well and the dyno results prove my son’s feedback was right on. After Varner shared...
The PC pipe is very noticeably different on the track as well and the dyno results prove my son’s feedback was right on. After Varner shared your results with the HGS pipe and PC silencer combo... we threw it on and it was noticeably better on the track than with the HGS silencer. I’m not sure why we didn’t try that but I think we were just frustrated with the PC stuff and just took it off and tossed it in a corner after 1 ride. Great set up and Varner’s mods make the bike really ridiculous. The only difference is that we run straight C12 (VP Blue) in ours with great results because I’m not a fan of blending fuel.
Really amazing builds on both bikes! You have to be super happy with the results.
I have to admit I was caught off guard by the combo of the stock pipe and the PC silencer working so well. One thing that separates Varner from a lot of other tuners is the fact that he will try EVERYTHING on the dyno you can possibly think of to find the right combination. Sometimes the results are surprising.

In regards to the fuel, on my engine we found that straight C12 was far more octane than these engines require and we made 3/4 of a HP more on a mix of 1/3 Sunoco Supreme Leaded and 2/3 pump fuel without any detonation whatsoever.

That is a noticeable bump in free horsepower and saves some $ as well.

cdoggy81
Posts
1305
Joined
1/1/2018
Location
St. Petersburg, FL US
9/4/2019 12:24pm
Ah, the few benefits of corn gas 🤣

Awesome results & great data with all of this Blackdiamond! Looking FW to reading & seeing more!
Helda
Posts
690
Joined
9/17/2018
Location
AU
9/7/2019 11:40pm
Great read BD, I might of missed it but I thought Derick Harris was doing the engine work?
1
blackdiamond
Posts
1363
Joined
11/5/2015
Location
Grapevine , TX US
9/8/2019 12:27pm
Helda wrote:
Great read BD, I might of missed it but I thought Derick Harris was doing the engine work?
I decided to go in a different direction.
3
smv ryder
Posts
825
Joined
11/2/2014
Location
Aspen, CO US
Fantasy
1425th
9/16/2019 9:07am
Helda wrote:
Great read BD, I might of missed it but I thought Derick Harris was doing the engine work?
I decided to go in a different direction.
Did you have a fall out with Derrick Harris or just simply went to Verner because he is better?
blackdiamond
Posts
1363
Joined
11/5/2015
Location
Grapevine , TX US
9/16/2019 10:59am
Helda wrote:
Great read BD, I might of missed it but I thought Derick Harris was doing the engine work?
I decided to go in a different direction.
smv ryder wrote:
Did you have a fall out with Derrick Harris or just simply went to Verner because he is better?
I would rather not get into the details of all that on Vital.
3
Barbatos
Posts
3
Joined
1/15/2019
Location
BE
9/16/2019 4:02pm
Bikes look stunning mate! Maybe I missed it but did you get a chance to weigh them yet?
cdoggy81
Posts
1305
Joined
1/1/2018
Location
St. Petersburg, FL US
9/16/2019 4:08pm
Funny as I was just thinking the same thing as well as if the 250 got dynoed yet 😎
blackdiamond
Posts
1363
Joined
11/5/2015
Location
Grapevine , TX US
9/16/2019 4:54pm
Barbatos wrote:
Bikes look stunning mate! Maybe I missed it but did you get a chance to weigh them yet?
I got sidetracked and never got them on the scale but I will get them weighed before the week is out.

I am as curious as you are!
1
blackdiamond
Posts
1363
Joined
11/5/2015
Location
Grapevine , TX US
9/16/2019 5:09pm
cdoggy81 wrote:
Funny as I was just thinking the same thing as well as if the 250 got dynoed yet 😎
The 250 was on the dyno the same days we did the 144 but it made power so easily we only did 4 or 5 runs and it was already north of 53 so we didn't do too much more tuning at that point. I was honestly starting to get concerned about the ride-ability at that level. I think it could easily be pushed over 55 HP if need be.

The dyno chart below is the Varner tuned TM 250 (in red) vs a Varner tuned CR 250 (in blue) that Ricky Dietrich used to holeshot and lead the 2 stroke WC this year.




7
Kurlon
Posts
8
Joined
2/13/2016
Location
ME US
9/18/2019 1:49pm
Seeing as the 150SX was brought up...

I'm shopping around for a small bore smoker currently, looking at the Yamaha YZ125 in normal and X trim, KTM 150SX and the TM MX 144. I currently race a 1992 Yamaha WR250ZD in supermoto trim, am quite confident on pavement but am a total newb / chicken in the dirt as I came into the sport from a road race background. I'm looking to get a smaller machine to play on in MX trim at dirt tracks to learn on, plus the occasional woods rip with friends, etc. I'm hoping the small bore machines being lighter and tamer than my current rig will inspire a little confidence in the dirt and get me jumping again? The 150SX has a sweet motor, once I adapted to it the YZ125 was nice as well, but clearly softer on bottom. What I've not been able to get seat time on yet is the TM. I've seen several reviews saying they "don't work until pushed" which makes me suspect they may be too sharp for a newb?

So, as noted, I like the 150SX, how's that MX 144 compare, out of the crate vs out of the crate?
blackdiamond
Posts
1363
Joined
11/5/2015
Location
Grapevine , TX US
9/18/2019 2:19pm
Kurlon wrote:
Seeing as the 150SX was brought up... I'm shopping around for a small bore smoker currently, looking at the Yamaha YZ125 in normal and X trim...
Seeing as the 150SX was brought up...

I'm shopping around for a small bore smoker currently, looking at the Yamaha YZ125 in normal and X trim, KTM 150SX and the TM MX 144. I currently race a 1992 Yamaha WR250ZD in supermoto trim, am quite confident on pavement but am a total newb / chicken in the dirt as I came into the sport from a road race background. I'm looking to get a smaller machine to play on in MX trim at dirt tracks to learn on, plus the occasional woods rip with friends, etc. I'm hoping the small bore machines being lighter and tamer than my current rig will inspire a little confidence in the dirt and get me jumping again? The 150SX has a sweet motor, once I adapted to it the YZ125 was nice as well, but clearly softer on bottom. What I've not been able to get seat time on yet is the TM. I've seen several reviews saying they "don't work until pushed" which makes me suspect they may be too sharp for a newb?

So, as noted, I like the 150SX, how's that MX 144 compare, out of the crate vs out of the crate?
I think the TM is a much higher quality package overall. The electronics/connectors, hubs, rear shock, etc are much better on the TM in my opinion.

The TM's have really bomb proof transmissions as well and some KTM's have been known to have problems in that area.

As far as the engine goes, they are similar in HP and power delivery but TM builds the 144 engine specifically for that bike unlike how KTM just uses a bigger piston and bore. The TM 144 has a completely different crank and stroke than the 125 and I think it works better on the track because of it.
1
Pirate421
Posts
1812
Joined
7/26/2015
Location
MA US
9/18/2019 6:11pm
I really want one of these 250/300’s! We are saving for a house but damn I needed to have my wife change the password for the account before I went and ordered one. If you ever sell that 250 let me know!
blackdiamond
Posts
1363
Joined
11/5/2015
Location
Grapevine , TX US
9/18/2019 10:59pm
Pirate421 wrote:
I really want one of these 250/300’s! We are saving for a house but damn I needed to have my wife change the password for the...
I really want one of these 250/300’s! We are saving for a house but damn I needed to have my wife change the password for the account before I went and ordered one. If you ever sell that 250 let me know!
Will do!
racerx317
Posts
225
Joined
1/4/2016
Location
Thompsons Station, TN US
9/19/2019 4:43am
Kurlon wrote:
Seeing as the 150SX was brought up... I'm shopping around for a small bore smoker currently, looking at the Yamaha YZ125 in normal and X trim...
Seeing as the 150SX was brought up...

I'm shopping around for a small bore smoker currently, looking at the Yamaha YZ125 in normal and X trim, KTM 150SX and the TM MX 144. I currently race a 1992 Yamaha WR250ZD in supermoto trim, am quite confident on pavement but am a total newb / chicken in the dirt as I came into the sport from a road race background. I'm looking to get a smaller machine to play on in MX trim at dirt tracks to learn on, plus the occasional woods rip with friends, etc. I'm hoping the small bore machines being lighter and tamer than my current rig will inspire a little confidence in the dirt and get me jumping again? The 150SX has a sweet motor, once I adapted to it the YZ125 was nice as well, but clearly softer on bottom. What I've not been able to get seat time on yet is the TM. I've seen several reviews saying they "don't work until pushed" which makes me suspect they may be too sharp for a newb?

So, as noted, I like the 150SX, how's that MX 144 compare, out of the crate vs out of the crate?
I think the TM is a much higher quality package overall. The electronics/connectors, hubs, rear shock, etc are much better on the TM in my opinion...
I think the TM is a much higher quality package overall. The electronics/connectors, hubs, rear shock, etc are much better on the TM in my opinion.

The TM's have really bomb proof transmissions as well and some KTM's have been known to have problems in that area.

As far as the engine goes, they are similar in HP and power delivery but TM builds the 144 engine specifically for that bike unlike how KTM just uses a bigger piston and bore. The TM 144 has a completely different crank and stroke than the 125 and I think it works better on the track because of it.
I’ll add to that as someone who had both from a track feel. The dyno in this thread is very true on the track as well. The KTM150 runs out quickly up top and is really only good for woods riding in our experience. Our KTM125 was much faster on the MX track and we used the 150 for sprint enduro and woods riding. Additionally, we had consistent problems with the PowerValves on the KTM. That system was not really engineered very well imo.
The TM turns better and has a much better power delivery for MX... and it revs to the moon. Best transmission we’ve ever had and best components bar none. The TM is head and shoulders above in many areas... this coming from someone who loves KTM. TM is just on another level for this displacement of a bike.
HackMan162
Posts
514
Joined
2/16/2007
Location
Austin, TX US
9/19/2019 6:29am
New graphics update. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/09/16/373246/s1200_20190915_162511.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/09/16/373248/s1200_20190915_162548.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/09/16/373247/s1200_20190915_162735.jpg[/img]
New graphics update.






Awesome looking bikes! Good to see our local Austin company, EZ Designs, on the graphics! Yimy is a great dude and super pumped to be doing Moto stuff.
blackdiamond
Posts
1363
Joined
11/5/2015
Location
Grapevine , TX US
9/19/2019 10:13am
HackMan162 wrote:
Awesome looking bikes! Good to see our local Austin company, EZ Designs, on the graphics! Yimy is a great dude and super pumped to be doing...
Awesome looking bikes! Good to see our local Austin company, EZ Designs, on the graphics! Yimy is a great dude and super pumped to be doing Moto stuff.
They were really easy to work with and I am stoked on how the final version turned out.
kxpete
Posts
385
Joined
5/21/2017
Location
Carlsbad, CA US
9/20/2019 1:36am
Glad i got to see these in person and enjoy some stella beers with ya
9/20/2019 5:03am
Awsome works again who make other builds like junkyard buit ;-)

Hope to see and hear in a video theses bikes singing.
9/20/2019 9:53am
Kurlon wrote:
Seeing as the 150SX was brought up... I'm shopping around for a small bore smoker currently, looking at the Yamaha YZ125 in normal and X trim...
Seeing as the 150SX was brought up...

I'm shopping around for a small bore smoker currently, looking at the Yamaha YZ125 in normal and X trim, KTM 150SX and the TM MX 144. I currently race a 1992 Yamaha WR250ZD in supermoto trim, am quite confident on pavement but am a total newb / chicken in the dirt as I came into the sport from a road race background. I'm looking to get a smaller machine to play on in MX trim at dirt tracks to learn on, plus the occasional woods rip with friends, etc. I'm hoping the small bore machines being lighter and tamer than my current rig will inspire a little confidence in the dirt and get me jumping again? The 150SX has a sweet motor, once I adapted to it the YZ125 was nice as well, but clearly softer on bottom. What I've not been able to get seat time on yet is the TM. I've seen several reviews saying they "don't work until pushed" which makes me suspect they may be too sharp for a newb?

So, as noted, I like the 150SX, how's that MX 144 compare, out of the crate vs out of the crate?
I think the TM is a much higher quality package overall. The electronics/connectors, hubs, rear shock, etc are much better on the TM in my opinion...
I think the TM is a much higher quality package overall. The electronics/connectors, hubs, rear shock, etc are much better on the TM in my opinion.

The TM's have really bomb proof transmissions as well and some KTM's have been known to have problems in that area.

As far as the engine goes, they are similar in HP and power delivery but TM builds the 144 engine specifically for that bike unlike how KTM just uses a bigger piston and bore. The TM 144 has a completely different crank and stroke than the 125 and I think it works better on the track because of it.
racerx317 wrote:
I’ll add to that as someone who had both from a track feel. The dyno in this thread is very true on the track as well...
I’ll add to that as someone who had both from a track feel. The dyno in this thread is very true on the track as well. The KTM150 runs out quickly up top and is really only good for woods riding in our experience. Our KTM125 was much faster on the MX track and we used the 150 for sprint enduro and woods riding. Additionally, we had consistent problems with the PowerValves on the KTM. That system was not really engineered very well imo.
The TM turns better and has a much better power delivery for MX... and it revs to the moon. Best transmission we’ve ever had and best components bar none. The TM is head and shoulders above in many areas... this coming from someone who loves KTM. TM is just on another level for this displacement of a bike.
I have not ridden a TM properly so cannot speak about them, but I went from KTM 125 to 150 and the 150 was a lot faster on an mx track. When it was fresh, the was equally as fast as a 250f, however they seem to wear out quickly and never have the same power after a rebuild.
blackdiamond
Posts
1363
Joined
11/5/2015
Location
Grapevine , TX US
9/20/2019 11:27am
kxpete wrote:
Glad i got to see these in person and enjoy some stella beers with ya
Moto and beer go together like peas and carrots Laughing

JWACK
Posts
2479
Joined
8/7/2009
Location
NM US
9/20/2019 12:53pm
Beautiful work as always BD.
How are the ergos compared to your old honda?
How about the front end feel? How does it compare at turn in vs the Honda? I’m sure the engines have a totally different feeling as well.
I am debating on whether I want to build a Honda or spend the coin on the tm in the future.

H4L
Posts
2499
Joined
3/18/2016
Location
CA US
9/20/2019 9:42pm Edited Date/Time 9/21/2019 7:54am
cdoggy81 wrote:
Funny as I was just thinking the same thing as well as if the 250 got dynoed yet 😎
The 250 was on the dyno the same days we did the 144 but it made power so easily we only did 4 or 5 runs...
The 250 was on the dyno the same days we did the 144 but it made power so easily we only did 4 or 5 runs and it was already north of 53 so we didn't do too much more tuning at that point. I was honestly starting to get concerned about the ride-ability at that level. I think it could easily be pushed over 55 HP if need be.

The dyno chart below is the Varner tuned TM 250 (in red) vs a Varner tuned CR 250 (in blue) that Ricky Dietrich used to holeshot and lead the 2 stroke WC this year.




BD I talked to Terry about a month ago & he mentioned Ricky D's 06 CR2 getting a holeshot at the WC 2T race & leading with his engine mods.. He told me it was making around 55hp so it's interesting to see the dyno chart showing 48-49hp.. He also mentioned Ricky pulled 300-500cc 2t's off the line with a standard 250 bore. Impressive !

Either way I'm going to be sending him an 03 CR2 cyl. & head to have him massage it.

Wise decision on going with Varner on the TM engine mods...
blackdiamond
Posts
1363
Joined
11/5/2015
Location
Grapevine , TX US
9/21/2019 12:55am
JWACK wrote:
Beautiful work as always BD. How are the ergos compared to your old honda? How about the front end feel? How does it compare at turn...
Beautiful work as always BD.
How are the ergos compared to your old honda?
How about the front end feel? How does it compare at turn in vs the Honda? I’m sure the engines have a totally different feeling as well.
I am debating on whether I want to build a Honda or spend the coin on the tm in the future.

They feel very similar to a Gen 3 Honda but they turn slightly better. The ergos are very, very close to the older Honda's before Honda started making everything really small.
1

Post a reply to: Full Tilt TM Racing Two Stroke Build(s) Update: Dirt Magazine "Two Stroke Tuesday"

The Latest