Full Tilt TM Racing Two Stroke Build(s) Update: Dirt Magazine "Two Stroke Tuesday"

blackdiamond
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4/3/2018 3:19pm
I'm really curious to hear about your opinion on how the stock HGS pipe compares to the Pro Circuit. What are your thoughts on that?
philG
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4/3/2018 3:47pm
I'm really curious to hear about your opinion on how the stock HGS pipe compares to the Pro Circuit. What are your thoughts on that?
We ended up with the ProCircuit full system, with the factory sound silencer, it seemed to give us the top end that we needed , over the HGS with the stock silencer. We tried a bored and stroked motor too, but the extra piston weight killed the top end, as it didnt rev out, so we got outgunned on the straights, went back to 300 and got it to rev, and got more out of it that way.

We ran a 14, 15 and 2 16's and got some slightly different maps for the power valves sorted out too. Great bikes, really enjoyed riding them, had 2 DNF's in 3 seasons. one was a pinched O ring on the head , the other was getting caught on the wrong gearing on a drying track and having it nip at the end of a long straight, cos i changed down too early.

As it stands now we have 2 running in the UK, and will hopefully have the 2 16's running in the German series with a rider with fewer years (and kilo's) to worry about than me.
blackdiamond
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4/3/2018 7:43pm
.kyle wrote:
Very cool build. Can't wait to see the finished product. I've been somewhat obsessed by TM since seeing a 2003 one years ago. Would still happily...
Very cool build. Can't wait to see the finished product. I've been somewhat obsessed by TM since seeing a 2003 one years ago. Would still happily buy a TM even though I don't ride any more. Haha.

One thing you could try and find - a hub that doesn't use half of the worlds supply of sprocket bolts like the stiocker - i.e a 6 bolt hub instead. Should be able to save some weight with that.

Any chance of a picture to show how the fuel tank allows the ram air system to work?
I forgot to respond to your question the other day regarding the venting system under the tank. Below is a pic of the air tract as it goes under the seat base. The tunnel is about 3/4" of an inch tall and runs the full width of the seat base. If you look closely in the second photo you can see the air filter through the tunnel.





GregDVT
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4/3/2018 8:26pm
Wow, that is so simple but so awesome.

The Shop

blackdiamond
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4/3/2018 9:25pm
GregDVT wrote:
Wow, that is so simple but so awesome.
When I first read about it I thought it was probably just another moto marketing gimmick but when I saw it in person I was actually really impressed. I was a lot bigger in volume than I thought it would be.
blackdiamond
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4/3/2018 10:39pm Edited Date/Time 4/3/2018 10:43pm
philG wrote:
We ended up with the ProCircuit full system, with the factory sound silencer, it seemed to give us the top end that we needed , over...
We ended up with the ProCircuit full system, with the factory sound silencer, it seemed to give us the top end that we needed , over the HGS with the stock silencer. We tried a bored and stroked motor too, but the extra piston weight killed the top end, as it didnt rev out, so we got outgunned on the straights, went back to 300 and got it to rev, and got more out of it that way.

We ran a 14, 15 and 2 16's and got some slightly different maps for the power valves sorted out too. Great bikes, really enjoyed riding them, had 2 DNF's in 3 seasons. one was a pinched O ring on the head , the other was getting caught on the wrong gearing on a drying track and having it nip at the end of a long straight, cos i changed down too early.

As it stands now we have 2 running in the UK, and will hopefully have the 2 16's running in the German series with a rider with fewer years (and kilo's) to worry about than me.
From what I have heard the PC system has more mid-top with more over-rev and the HGS pipe has more mid-range.

Does that summarize your testing as well? I really appreciate the insight, this will save us a ton of testing and time sorting things out on our end!
David934
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4/4/2018 2:36am
Someone say that TMs are true factory machines and production price is higher then sale price.Shocked
Motofinne
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4/4/2018 2:43am
David934 wrote:
Someone say that TMs are true factory machines and production price is higher then sale price.Shocked
Like i mentioned in this thread earlier.

TMs are pretty cheap here in Finland. You can get the TM 300 for 8200€. A SX/TC 250 is 8800€ and a YZ 250 is 8600€.

Man this thread will be so good. It almost makes me wanna get a TM!
David934
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4/4/2018 2:59am
David934 wrote:
Someone say that TMs are true factory machines and production price is higher then sale price.Shocked
Motofinne wrote:
Like i mentioned in this thread earlier. TMs are pretty cheap here in Finland. You can get the TM 300 for 8200€. A SX/TC 250 is...
Like i mentioned in this thread earlier.

TMs are pretty cheap here in Finland. You can get the TM 300 for 8200€. A SX/TC 250 is 8800€ and a YZ 250 is 8600€.

Man this thread will be so good. It almost makes me wanna get a TM!
How about TM 300 for 7200e?Tongue
H4L
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4/4/2018 7:25am
H4L wrote:
Nice ! I'm still on my old school 03 CR250r since I haven't found a better 250 2T to replace it. Have owned blue, yellow, green...
Nice ! I'm still on my old school 03 CR250r since I haven't found a better 250 2T to replace it. Have owned blue, yellow, green & ended up going back to red. I was actually considering buying a new white or orange KTM, but wasn't impressed with them after riding new 17's last year (SX & TC models).
This TM might be worth looking into as a new stable mate for the garage. I'll be following your thread for updates.
What kind of dent does a TM250 put in your wallet ?
A big one.

MSRP is $8845
That's not to bad. Definitely interested in a ride report after it's finished & how it compares to the 03 CR2 build you recently did.
philG
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4/4/2018 9:38am
From what I have heard the PC system has more mid-top with more over-rev and the HGS pipe has more mid-range. Does that summarize your testing...
From what I have heard the PC system has more mid-top with more over-rev and the HGS pipe has more mid-range.

Does that summarize your testing as well? I really appreciate the insight, this will save us a ton of testing and time sorting things out on our end!
Pretty much, the top end gain was more use then the middle range hit that we didnt want .
ThatOneKid
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4/4/2018 9:54am
Wow the under the seat vent is awesome!
JBecker 72
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4/4/2018 10:04am
These are gonna be awesome! Would love to spin some laps on a 250 smoker.
philG
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4/4/2018 12:03pm
The 300 is a great Vet bike, it goes great, but isnt as violent as the 250, by all accounts, ride one if you even get chance, you wont be disappointed.
.kyle
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4/4/2018 12:53pm
I forgot to respond to your question the other day regarding the venting system under the tank. Below is a pic of the air tract as...
I forgot to respond to your question the other day regarding the venting system under the tank. Below is a pic of the air tract as it goes under the seat base. The tunnel is about 3/4" of an inch tall and runs the full width of the seat base. If you look closely in the second photo you can see the air filter through the tunnel.





Thanks for those pictures. It's cool to see.
racerx317
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4/4/2018 5:53pm
H4L wrote:
Thnxz for confirming. On the pic you posted from the top view of the engine it does look like a screw top Keihin A/S.
Check out the CNC case matching. That was a surprise when I pulled the cylinder off. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2018/04/01/253046/s1200_20180331_174336.jpg[/img]
Check out the CNC case matching. That was a surprise when I pulled the cylinder off.



I just bought my son a TM and can’t believe the quality and attention to detail on every inch of the bike. Im honestly surprised that the MSRP isn’t higher. We’ve definitely found our new favorite brand... me as the mechanic as I drool over the outstanding craftsmanship and my son as the rider who finally found a big bike that he feels at home on. We’ve been through every brand since he’s moved up from minis and this is the only one he’s felt completely comfortable on. Couldn’t be happier with the bike on all levels.

Looking forward to watching and learning from your builds on these bikes. Thank you for sharing.
Mx746
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4/4/2018 6:02pm
Hows the ergos on the TM's , any comparison to blue,red,etc? Roomy, cramped, middle of the road?
blackdiamond
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4/4/2018 6:14pm
racerx317 wrote:
I just bought my son a TM and can’t believe the quality and attention to detail on every inch of the bike. Im honestly surprised that...
I just bought my son a TM and can’t believe the quality and attention to detail on every inch of the bike. Im honestly surprised that the MSRP isn’t higher. We’ve definitely found our new favorite brand... me as the mechanic as I drool over the outstanding craftsmanship and my son as the rider who finally found a big bike that he feels at home on. We’ve been through every brand since he’s moved up from minis and this is the only one he’s felt completely comfortable on. Couldn’t be happier with the bike on all levels.

Looking forward to watching and learning from your builds on these bikes. Thank you for sharing.
What size bike is your son riding?
blackdiamond
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4/4/2018 6:17pm Edited Date/Time 4/4/2018 6:18pm
Mx746 wrote:
Hows the ergos on the TM's , any comparison to blue,red,etc? Roomy, cramped, middle of the road?
It reminds me of a more refined and sleek 2008 Honda. Roomier than most, not so small and narrow like some of the later years.
racerx317
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4/4/2018 6:37pm Edited Date/Time 4/4/2018 6:41pm
Mx746 wrote:
Hows the ergos on the TM's , any comparison to blue,red,etc? Roomy, cramped, middle of the road?
My son is a solid test rider and has a lot of insight since we’ve played musical bikes since moving up from minis. He’s a B level rider and so he’s pretty experienced to give solid feedback.

He said it turns as good or better than his Honda and is as stable in the straights as his Kawi. We havent even sent the suspension out as it’s actually really good right out of the box. The forks are definitely comparable to the YZ even though TM doesn’t run the YZ valving due to a confidentiality agreement between Yamaha & KYB. The shock is actually better than anything we’ve ever used or tested on any bike including a Traxx A kit shock. However, we havent had the bike very long and haven’t ridden anything super rough as of yet. More to come on that as we get more time on it at various tracks.

My son is 6’2” tall and the bike feels great... doesn’t hit his stilt legs on the bars in turns and has no problems with transitions between sitting and standing at all. Not sure how a shorter rider would fair on it, but Ping seemed to love them when he tested them and I think he’s a shorter rider.

As far as the motor... it has more power in the mid and top than a KTM 125 or a full mod YZ. The KTM has a bit more bottom but not by much. We have a VHM head with the standard insert that we’ll be testing with that is supposed to increase the power across the entire range to make the power even better. We have no plans to mod this bike outside of the head as it has plenty of power in stock trim. We really don’t even need the head but we like to test different set ups for fun.

Hope this helps.
Mx746
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4/4/2018 7:53pm
Mx746 wrote:
Hows the ergos on the TM's , any comparison to blue,red,etc? Roomy, cramped, middle of the road?
racerx317 wrote:
My son is a solid test rider and has a lot of insight since we’ve played musical bikes since moving up from minis. He’s a B...
My son is a solid test rider and has a lot of insight since we’ve played musical bikes since moving up from minis. He’s a B level rider and so he’s pretty experienced to give solid feedback.

He said it turns as good or better than his Honda and is as stable in the straights as his Kawi. We havent even sent the suspension out as it’s actually really good right out of the box. The forks are definitely comparable to the YZ even though TM doesn’t run the YZ valving due to a confidentiality agreement between Yamaha & KYB. The shock is actually better than anything we’ve ever used or tested on any bike including a Traxx A kit shock. However, we havent had the bike very long and haven’t ridden anything super rough as of yet. More to come on that as we get more time on it at various tracks.

My son is 6’2” tall and the bike feels great... doesn’t hit his stilt legs on the bars in turns and has no problems with transitions between sitting and standing at all. Not sure how a shorter rider would fair on it, but Ping seemed to love them when he tested them and I think he’s a shorter rider.

As far as the motor... it has more power in the mid and top than a KTM 125 or a full mod YZ. The KTM has a bit more bottom but not by much. We have a VHM head with the standard insert that we’ll be testing with that is supposed to increase the power across the entire range to make the power even better. We have no plans to mod this bike outside of the head as it has plenty of power in stock trim. We really don’t even need the head but we like to test different set ups for fun.

Hope this helps.
Thanks for the info! I’m looking ahead at a new bike for 19, finishing out this year on what I’ve got. I’m 6’ considering the 250 or maybe even 144 vet/senior mx use. Good to know about the stability that was a concern. I’ve got a good local dealer. Build quality is impressive. The counterbalance on the KTM 250 is a selling point for me, but the TM sure do look amazing, I can make some room in the garage for an exotic. Sorry OP , didn’t mean to derail the thread.
blackdiamond
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4/4/2018 8:59pm
racerx317 wrote:
My son is a solid test rider and has a lot of insight since we’ve played musical bikes since moving up from minis. He’s a B...
My son is a solid test rider and has a lot of insight since we’ve played musical bikes since moving up from minis. He’s a B level rider and so he’s pretty experienced to give solid feedback.

He said it turns as good or better than his Honda and is as stable in the straights as his Kawi. We havent even sent the suspension out as it’s actually really good right out of the box. The forks are definitely comparable to the YZ even though TM doesn’t run the YZ valving due to a confidentiality agreement between Yamaha & KYB. The shock is actually better than anything we’ve ever used or tested on any bike including a Traxx A kit shock. However, we havent had the bike very long and haven’t ridden anything super rough as of yet. More to come on that as we get more time on it at various tracks.

My son is 6’2” tall and the bike feels great... doesn’t hit his stilt legs on the bars in turns and has no problems with transitions between sitting and standing at all. Not sure how a shorter rider would fair on it, but Ping seemed to love them when he tested them and I think he’s a shorter rider.

As far as the motor... it has more power in the mid and top than a KTM 125 or a full mod YZ. The KTM has a bit more bottom but not by much. We have a VHM head with the standard insert that we’ll be testing with that is supposed to increase the power across the entire range to make the power even better. We have no plans to mod this bike outside of the head as it has plenty of power in stock trim. We really don’t even need the head but we like to test different set ups for fun.

Hope this helps.
I would definitely like to hear your opinion of the VHM head when you get some testing done on that. It seems a lot of TM owners run the VHM heads, especially on the 125's and 144's.
BenG
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4/4/2018 9:04pm
I've read a little here and there on how the TM's are pretty trick. But until this thread I didn't realize how much they are badass right out of the box. What exhaust come's stock with it?
racerx317
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4/4/2018 9:16pm
BenG wrote:
I've read a little here and there on how the TM's are pretty trick. But until this thread I didn't realize how much they are badass...
I've read a little here and there on how the TM's are pretty trick. But until this thread I didn't realize how much they are badass right out of the box. What exhaust come's stock with it?
I don’t want to take away from this build thread any more than I already have... I just get so pumped about the bike that I can go on for hours talking about these machines.

My apologies to black diamond... I will take some pics of our bike tomorrow and put it in the product review section to keep this thread clean. To answer your question though... HGS comes stock on the TMs.

racerx317
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4/4/2018 9:18pm
I would definitely like to hear your opinion of the VHM head when you get some testing done on that. It seems a lot of TM...
I would definitely like to hear your opinion of the VHM head when you get some testing done on that. It seems a lot of TM owners run the VHM heads, especially on the 125's and 144's.
I’ll be glad to do that for sure. He’ll be back on the bike in a few more weeks... made a stupid mistake and broke his arm. Normal Moto kid issues...lol
blackdiamond
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4/4/2018 9:30pm
racerx317 wrote:
I don’t want to take away from this build thread any more than I already have... I just get so pumped about the bike that I...
I don’t want to take away from this build thread any more than I already have... I just get so pumped about the bike that I can go on for hours talking about these machines.

My apologies to black diamond... I will take some pics of our bike tomorrow and put it in the product review section to keep this thread clean. To answer your question though... HGS comes stock on the TMs.

No apology needed, I appreciate the feedback and insight!

You are welcome to post anything TM related on this thread, I am always interested to hear other peoples opinions on various mods, parts, etc. I am also learning these bikes day by day and find new things all the time that I did not know before purchasing them.
make1go
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4/5/2018 2:11am
You should be getting kick backs from TM and vital. Threads like these are where most of us act like adults and talk about dirtbikes, making vital worth reading.
blackdiamond
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4/5/2018 10:58am
make1go wrote:
You should be getting kick backs from TM and vital. Threads like these are where most of us act like adults and talk about dirtbikes, making...
You should be getting kick backs from TM and vital. Threads like these are where most of us act like adults and talk about dirtbikes, making vital worth reading.
That's the best idea I have heard all week. Ha ha

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