Stark Cheating in WSX?

early
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11/11/2025 11:31am

Sucks that this happened. The best way to establish a limited electric class is weight and voltage measured before the start of the race.

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11/11/2025 11:31am
shortty761 wrote:
What the competition will do to try to keep up with the number 38! Hahaha. Gotta love a cheater.Now let’s see some other OEMS cheat to...

What the competition will do to try to keep up with the number 38! Hahaha. Gotta love a cheater.

Now let’s see some other OEMS cheat to keep up with danger.

Only one id trust these days is Suzuki since they don’t even care enough to make an E Start

I think its time for you to go outside or something like that. I feel like I am a huge fan of Haiden. but I also know that there are a lot of people better than him on the 450 right now. Haiden will only be getting better from here unless he gets hurt, he still has some things to refine, example, blowing through 2 clutches in 16 total laps.

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GrapeApe
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11/11/2025 11:44am Edited Date/Time 11/11/2025 11:45am
Falcon wrote:
Hmmm. A Stark Varg was penalized because it is too good in its stock form and must be regulated down to compete with everybody else's works...

Hmmm. A Stark Varg was penalized because it is too good in its stock form and must be regulated down to compete with everybody else's works bikes. Sounds like great marketing for Stark to me. 

Wouldn't that be like Honda saying our CRF450 is so good they won't let us race it in the 250 class? Not sure that is a great selling point.

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Beagle
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11/11/2025 12:08pm Edited Date/Time 11/12/2025 12:06pm
Falcon wrote:
Hmmm. A Stark Varg was penalized because it is too good in its stock form and must be regulated down to compete with everybody else's works...

Hmmm. A Stark Varg was penalized because it is too good in its stock form and must be regulated down to compete with everybody else's works bikes. Sounds like great marketing for Stark to me. 

It was even worse in FIM Superenduro, initially they had such a high minimum weight (heavier than the production bike) that they had to add ballast to the bike. Imagine suggesting electrics are too light 😆

In WSX as in Superenduro, FIM are balancing technical rules after every round, depending on performance of electrics they can be "freed" or penalized adjusting max power, max torque or minimum weight.

"The FIM reserves the right to update the EOT/BOP at its discretion (and at any time) in the case of an imbalance. In case of dispute, the decision of the FIM Technical Director is final."

Rules had been reviewed 3 times during last season of Superenduro (always to free Stark to use lower minimum weight, and lastly to lift the max power requirement).

https://www.fim-moto.com/fr/documents/detail/2025-3-superenduro-electri…

FIM has been working and testing with Stark for 2 years to ensure they can trust the data logged and that the system in place meets their requirement. The bikes must be equipped with additional FIM data logger and FIM sensors for voltage and current. They're independent from Stark data logging and sensors. No system is perfect but I can only imagine FIM laughing while reading anyone here vaguely suggesting that the data can't be trusted.

Here you'll find technical rules for WSX

https://www.fim-moto.com/en/news/news-detail/article/electric-bikes-to-compete-in-the-fim-world-supercross-championship

Check out EOT/BOT (Equivalence of Technologies/Balance Of Performance).

JM point about power spikes is specifically addressed 

"A 0,1KJ per lap tolerance is permissible beyond any above power limits excursions within the lap. Exceeding the tolerances will be penalised at the sole discretion of the FIM Technical Director."

So yeah, it could be cheating, it could be too many spikes in some laps, could be anything else, at the moment no one knows so you can put those pitchforks down.

Now the fact that they did not disqualify Hicks makes me think it can't be that bad, we'll see.

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The Shop

Beagle
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11/11/2025 12:10pm Edited Date/Time 11/11/2025 12:11pm
Falcon wrote:
Hmmm. A Stark Varg was penalized because it is too good in its stock form and must be regulated down to compete with everybody else's works...

Hmmm. A Stark Varg was penalized because it is too good in its stock form and must be regulated down to compete with everybody else's works bikes. Sounds like great marketing for Stark to me. 

GrapeApe wrote:
Wouldn't that be like Honda saying our CRF450 is so good they won't let us race it in the 250 class? Not sure that is a...

Wouldn't that be like Honda saying our CRF450 is so good they won't let us race it in the 250 class? Not sure that is a great selling point.

The point is that Starks aren't allowed to use full power against 450s either. 

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JM485
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11/11/2025 12:29pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Can he change it while riding via a switch setting?Can the controller surge past set power limits while trying to achieve an acceleration or v level/limit...

Can he change it while riding via a switch setting?

Can the controller surge past set power limits while trying to achieve an acceleration or v level/limit? (I’m thinking 3D map type situation where one level is ignored while trying to achieve another priority…?)

I don't believe it can be changed using the map switch once the power is locked.  Now, it's possible Stark has different options available than what the normal consumers get, but I just don't see a situation where they would be incentivized to actually cheat.  They (and us) are in a pretty bad spot right now when it comes to dealing with the AMA and general public regarding eligibility, so would it really be worth invalidating any trust built with the sanctioning bodies globally just to try to gain a few positions (on a track that was hard packed and didn't require extra power anyways)?  I'm not seeing a scenario where that plays out favorably, lots of risk for extremely low reward.  

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11/11/2025 12:37pm

I am attaching images of the newest Electric guidelines for WSX I could find. They list the required data logging equipment and supplemental rules that apply to electric's  that can vary as they learn more at each round. The rulebook pages I attached are JPEGS so that they are easy to view without downloading , but as a result the links will not be clickable.

 

 In the rule book it says that the FIM will not disclose data they get from a data log and will only use it for " investigation purposes". 

So I doubt that the FIM will put out any detailed info on the violation. I hope that Stark asks the FIM to release some detailed info so that it comes from them and not just Stark.  Otherwise people may not trust the explanation. 

 

FIM electric rule page 5
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Beagle
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11/11/2025 12:55pm Edited Date/Time 11/12/2025 2:20am

Updated WSX results say

"Penalties: #460 Hicks - Exceeding the maximum energy tolerance per lap"

Now I'm pretty sure they're talking about this outlined in the EOT/BOP document:

"A 0,1KJ per lap tolerance is permissible beyond any above power limits excursions within the lap. Exceeding the tolerances will be penalised at the sole discretion of the FIM Technical Director."

A lap at Buenos Aires was about 55 s. 

An energy of 0.1 kJ for a time of 55 s is equal to a power of 1.8 W (P=E/t), about 0.002 hp.

Now that's outrageous cheating, 0.002 hp, how dare they !

Obviously it's an average over spikes so it all depends on the duration of said spikes. For instance Hicks would also go over the tolerance by having on every lap one 0.5 s spike of 0.2 hp, or five 0.1 s spikes of 0.2 hp, or even, let's get crazy, one 0.1 s spike of 1 hp, talk about going into overdrive!

If that's really all there is to it (which is not confirmed), it sounds like the FIM is doing its job really well, monitoring things precisely, and that Stark could easily fix that by lowering their hp limit by a smidge.

The fact that it might not be from a setting but just some spikes depending on riding, track conditions, air time and so on seems consistent with the fact this was only observed for some of the sessions/races.

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Flatliner
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11/11/2025 1:00pm

Funny that we're worried about too much power now, but didn't give a rip in 2001 when the 250f came out.

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11/11/2025 1:57pm

i know what should happen! Now hear me out cause this is CRAZY...but maybe...possibly...if not too much trouble...our moto-media crew could pick up the phone, call this team, and ask them to comment about the penalty. No more speculating, just normal answers to a simple question. 

But it won't happen so.........

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11/11/2025 2:08pm
Beagle wrote:
Updated WSX results say"Penalties: #460 Hicks - Exceeding the maximum energy tolerance per lap"Now I'm pretty sure they're talking about this outlined in the...

Updated WSX results say

"Penalties: #460 Hicks - Exceeding the maximum energy tolerance per lap"

Now I'm pretty sure they're talking about this outlined in the EOT/BOP document:

"A 0,1KJ per lap tolerance is permissible beyond any above power limits excursions within the lap. Exceeding the tolerances will be penalised at the sole discretion of the FIM Technical Director."

A lap at Buenos Aires was about 55 s. 

An energy of 0.1 kJ for a time of 55 s is equal to a power of 1.8 W (P=E/t), about 0.002 hp.

Now that's outrageous cheating, 0.002 hp, how dare they !

Obviously it's an average over spikes so it all depends on the duration of said spikes. For instance Hicks would also go over the tolerance by having on every lap one 0.5 s spike of 0.2 hp, or five 0.1 s spikes of 0.2 hp, or even, let's get crazy, one 0.1 s spike of 1 hp, talk about going into overdrive!

If that's really all there is to it (which is not confirmed), it sounds like the FIM is doing its job really well, monitoring things precisely, and that Stark could easily fix that by lowering their hp limit by a smidge.

The fact that it might not be from a setting but just some spikes depending on riding, track conditions, air time and so on seems consistent with the fact this was only observed for some of the sessions/races.

The tolerance is so small, if I was Stark, I would be testing 2D's current and voltage sensors, to check their calibration and see how much variation there is between senors.

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11/11/2025 2:12pm

E-bikes vs ICE bikes is stupid to even entertain the idea. They are not equals, they are different. They need their own class, that way they can go away sooner.

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Sparkalounger
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11/11/2025 2:20pm
Flatliner wrote:

Funny that we're worried about too much power now, but didn't give a rip in 2001 when the 250f came out.

True, but at least maybe we are learning from past mistakes. 

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11/11/2025 2:29pm
Flatliner wrote:

Funny that we're worried about too much power now, but didn't give a rip in 2001 when the 250f came out.

True, but at least maybe we are learning from past mistakes. 

That's how I am seeing it. The entire industry made a huge mistake and are doing what they can to make sure it doesn't happen again. I'm more than ok with that.

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GrapeApe
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11/11/2025 2:29pm Edited Date/Time 11/11/2025 2:38pm
Falcon wrote:
Hmmm. A Stark Varg was penalized because it is too good in its stock form and must be regulated down to compete with everybody else's works...

Hmmm. A Stark Varg was penalized because it is too good in its stock form and must be regulated down to compete with everybody else's works bikes. Sounds like great marketing for Stark to me. 

GrapeApe wrote:
Wouldn't that be like Honda saying our CRF450 is so good they won't let us race it in the 250 class? Not sure that is a...

Wouldn't that be like Honda saying our CRF450 is so good they won't let us race it in the 250 class? Not sure that is a great selling point.

Beagle wrote:

The point is that Starks aren't allowed to use full power against 450s either. 

Neither are 500's. I think you get the point.

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ando
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11/11/2025 2:42pm
gt80rider wrote:
Pssst - there is NO way to prevent cheating w electric bikes.... short of a fuse or circuit breaker... zero way wsx or the "ama' could...

Pssst - there is NO way to prevent cheating w electric bikes.... short of a fuse or circuit breaker... zero way wsx or the "ama' could tell without a dyno

Yeah unlike ICE bikes where it’s obvious and very easy to tell when someone has a cheater bike… oh wait…

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ando
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11/11/2025 2:51pm

Interesting that ICE bikes aren’t regulated by power output - only by a physical dimension (displacement).  Everyone would agree that you can make a 450 with way more power than almost anyone on earth would need yet electric bikes are being regulated by their power output.

How does the situation of the Stark “illegally” running a higher power setting compare to someone rocking up on fire-breathing 450 that makes over 60hp?

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Falcon
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11/11/2025 2:54pm
Falcon wrote:
Hmmm. A Stark Varg was penalized because it is too good in its stock form and must be regulated down to compete with everybody else's works...

Hmmm. A Stark Varg was penalized because it is too good in its stock form and must be regulated down to compete with everybody else's works bikes. Sounds like great marketing for Stark to me. 

GrapeApe wrote:
Wouldn't that be like Honda saying our CRF450 is so good they won't let us race it in the 250 class? Not sure that is a...

Wouldn't that be like Honda saying our CRF450 is so good they won't let us race it in the 250 class? Not sure that is a great selling point.

Beagle wrote:

The point is that Starks aren't allowed to use full power against 450s either. 

Right.

Did you guys see the ad that Dodge/MOPAR put out wherein the NHRA informed Dodge in writing that the Hellcat was barred from NHRA Drag competition because it was too powerful? Something like that could be turned to Stark's advantage here. "Oooops, we messed up and only handicapped our bike to 85% instead of 80%, which is too much power for WSX! Good thing for all those other brands that we can't let our bike use all of its stock output - the same power level you can buy right off the showroom floor." 

All I'm saying as that a smart marketing team can turn this to their advantage. 

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rbspecial138
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11/11/2025 3:16pm

Not related to this specific issue here, but I see it come up in almost every "E" vs. ICE thread. I think people miss out on that it is merely a discussion on how these two different bikes can compete on the same playing field, not a comparison of what type of bike is best. That's what shootouts are for! (Would love to see a shootout that included the two types of ICE bikes and an E bike.)

Imagine if we could have had that conversation back in two vs. four stroke days and we could have created displacement, efi, etc limits so that both types of bikes could compete together evenly. We could have had two decades of awesome recing between two and four strokes... what a missed opportunity! 

I feel like we can do that this time around and have the chance to figure out a way to evenly race E and ICE bikes in the same class. I am worried that if we do not, ICE bikes will go the way two strokes have gone in professional racing and become a dinosaur.

**Full disclosure I own two and four strokes and have ridden an E bike a handful of times. so not firmly planted in any one camp.

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Beagle
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11/11/2025 3:28pm Edited Date/Time 11/11/2025 3:46pm
GrapeApe wrote:
Wouldn't that be like Honda saying our CRF450 is so good they won't let us race it in the 250 class? Not sure that is a...

Wouldn't that be like Honda saying our CRF450 is so good they won't let us race it in the 250 class? Not sure that is a great selling point.

Beagle wrote:

The point is that Starks aren't allowed to use full power against 450s either. 

GrapeApe wrote:

Neither are 500's. I think you get the point.

Sure, in both cases it says in flashing neon letters "this bike is too fast for our liking."

As Falcon says, it's free publicity.

It would be so much more fun to have an open class rather than excluding bikes supposedly too fast to compete, be it 2 strokes or electrics.

It's funny to see many assuming electrics are so inherently superior they shouldn't be able to compete. Obviously that's not what I believe but if someone truly believes this, an electric class is the last thing they should want. In their own class, restrictions on electrics would make no sense so what happens after some time if/when the electric class becomes the faster class? How long would top riders stick on outclassed bikes?

FIM with its balancing rules is actually trying to preserve the current state of affairs by handicapping electrics if need be.

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Deadric
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11/11/2025 3:33pm

Factory teams already cheat to pass sound testing. Hell one team blew up a bike so it couldn't be tested. Let me know when that starts getting policed if we're going to cry about being fair. 

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jaun
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11/11/2025 3:37pm
shortty761 wrote:
What the competition will do to try to keep up with the number 38! Hahaha. Gotta love a cheater.Now let’s see some other OEMS cheat to...

What the competition will do to try to keep up with the number 38! Hahaha. Gotta love a cheater.

Now let’s see some other OEMS cheat to keep up with danger.

Only one id trust these days is Suzuki since they don’t even care enough to make an E Start

kage173 wrote:

Star racing and Haiden cheated at an amateur race.

Got any proof of that?

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DonM
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11/11/2025 4:22pm
ando wrote:
Interesting that ICE bikes aren’t regulated by power output - only by a physical dimension (displacement).  Everyone would agree that you can make a 450 with...

Interesting that ICE bikes aren’t regulated by power output - only by a physical dimension (displacement).  Everyone would agree that you can make a 450 with way more power than almost anyone on earth would need yet electric bikes are being regulated by their power output.

How does the situation of the Stark “illegally” running a higher power setting compare to someone rocking up on fire-breathing 450 that makes over 60hp?

And that is why they don't belong in the same class...

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bodycast
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11/11/2025 4:54pm
Falcon wrote:
Hmmm. A Stark Varg was penalized because it is too good in its stock form and must be regulated down to compete with everybody else's works...

Hmmm. A Stark Varg was penalized because it is too good in its stock form and must be regulated down to compete with everybody else's works bikes. Sounds like great marketing for Stark to me. 

GrapeApe wrote:
Wouldn't that be like Honda saying our CRF450 is so good they won't let us race it in the 250 class? Not sure that is a...

Wouldn't that be like Honda saying our CRF450 is so good they won't let us race it in the 250 class? Not sure that is a great selling point.

Beagle wrote:

The point is that Starks aren't allowed to use full power against 450s either. 

All forms of racing have classes.  Only way to sove this would be a true OPEN class.

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AH387
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11/11/2025 5:00pm
ando wrote:
Interesting that ICE bikes aren’t regulated by power output - only by a physical dimension (displacement).  Everyone would agree that you can make a 450 with...

Interesting that ICE bikes aren’t regulated by power output - only by a physical dimension (displacement).  Everyone would agree that you can make a 450 with way more power than almost anyone on earth would need yet electric bikes are being regulated by their power output.

How does the situation of the Stark “illegally” running a higher power setting compare to someone rocking up on fire-breathing 450 that makes over 60hp?

We've seen multiple videos where Starks can holeshot a 450 no problem. I think MXA did a video at GH. So right there, you can turn the power way up on a Stark, for the start and then afterwards, use your thumb to bring it down into a more normal range. Also, you don't have to shift. So not only are you taking away the time it takes to shift, you don't have to worry about gear selection or missing a shift etc, which is all a big part of racing. I feel like after riding one, you can immediately feel like it's it's own thing. The bikes are heavy but without rotating mass, it lays over way easier than a 450. It's just so different. I personally feel it's silly to try and even it out, so it can race with ICE bikes. I would rather them have their own class and then if you want to do unlimited, then by all means. I know Stark doesn't want that, but it's just my opinion. But WSX having them mixed in, I don't think that decision was made because they think it makes sense from a racing standpoint, but more for the exposure and something to talk about/watch. But I could be wrong.

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ando
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11/11/2025 5:07pm
ando wrote:
Interesting that ICE bikes aren’t regulated by power output - only by a physical dimension (displacement).  Everyone would agree that you can make a 450 with...

Interesting that ICE bikes aren’t regulated by power output - only by a physical dimension (displacement).  Everyone would agree that you can make a 450 with way more power than almost anyone on earth would need yet electric bikes are being regulated by their power output.

How does the situation of the Stark “illegally” running a higher power setting compare to someone rocking up on fire-breathing 450 that makes over 60hp?

DonM wrote:

And that is why they don't belong in the same class...

I don’t get your argument - one type of bike is regulated on its power and the other isn’t.  Why is anyone concerned how much power a Stark makes when they are totally unconcerned about how much a 450 makes?

Why don’t we regulate the 450 class on power output?  That’s a somewhat rhetorical question BTW.

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RACING
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11/11/2025 5:17pm
Falcon wrote:
Hmmm. A Stark Varg was penalized because it is too good in its stock form and must be regulated down to compete with everybody else's works...

Hmmm. A Stark Varg was penalized because it is too good in its stock form and must be regulated down to compete with everybody else's works bikes. Sounds like great marketing for Stark to me. 

Haaaaa, now I get why they're always racing backwards: that's because they're not in stock form. What a shame.

 

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ando
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11/11/2025 5:23pm
ando wrote:
Interesting that ICE bikes aren’t regulated by power output - only by a physical dimension (displacement).  Everyone would agree that you can make a 450 with...

Interesting that ICE bikes aren’t regulated by power output - only by a physical dimension (displacement).  Everyone would agree that you can make a 450 with way more power than almost anyone on earth would need yet electric bikes are being regulated by their power output.

How does the situation of the Stark “illegally” running a higher power setting compare to someone rocking up on fire-breathing 450 that makes over 60hp?

AH387 wrote:
We've seen multiple videos where Starks can holeshot a 450 no problem. I think MXA did a video at GH. So right there, you can turn...

We've seen multiple videos where Starks can holeshot a 450 no problem. I think MXA did a video at GH. So right there, you can turn the power way up on a Stark, for the start and then afterwards, use your thumb to bring it down into a more normal range. Also, you don't have to shift. So not only are you taking away the time it takes to shift, you don't have to worry about gear selection or missing a shift etc, which is all a big part of racing. I feel like after riding one, you can immediately feel like it's it's own thing. The bikes are heavy but without rotating mass, it lays over way easier than a 450. It's just so different. I personally feel it's silly to try and even it out, so it can race with ICE bikes. I would rather them have their own class and then if you want to do unlimited, then by all means. I know Stark doesn't want that, but it's just my opinion. But WSX having them mixed in, I don't think that decision was made because they think it makes sense from a racing standpoint, but more for the exposure and something to talk about/watch. But I could be wrong.

I agree that trying to attain parity between different engine platforms is riddled with problems and ultimately pointless.  No matter how hard you try someone will find a small advantage on one side and once they do everyone who’s serious about winning will abandon the other option.  Then you are forced into more rule changes and an endless cycle of back and forth.

Maybe the answer is a third open or unlimited class.

This whole issue does highlight one curious paradox of elite level motocross - it’s fairly unique in that the machines are highly production based.  Now this does have its advantages but the major disadvantage is that the OEMs, who are heavily invested in racing, are not motivated to experiment with or support major rule changes because ultimately it could lead to changing their entire product line.  So we want things to progress but the biggest stakeholders are intrinsically not inclined to want major progress.

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11/11/2025 5:31pm Edited Date/Time 11/11/2025 5:31pm
ando wrote:
I don’t get your argument - one type of bike is regulated on its power and the other isn’t.  Why is anyone concerned how much power...

I don’t get your argument - one type of bike is regulated on its power and the other isn’t.  Why is anyone concerned how much power a Stark makes when they are totally unconcerned about how much a 450 makes?

Why don’t we regulate the 450 class on power output?  That’s a somewhat rhetorical question BTW.

The 450 class is regulated on how much power they put out…hence why it is called the 450 class…

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11/11/2025 5:39pm Edited Date/Time 11/11/2025 5:40pm
ando wrote:
I don’t get your argument - one type of bike is regulated on its power and the other isn’t.  Why is anyone concerned how much power...

I don’t get your argument - one type of bike is regulated on its power and the other isn’t.  Why is anyone concerned how much power a Stark makes when they are totally unconcerned about how much a 450 makes?

Why don’t we regulate the 450 class on power output?  That’s a somewhat rhetorical question BTW.

The 450 class is regulated on how much power they put out…hence why it is called the 450 class…

The 450 class regulates displacement, not power.

If it regulated power, it would be called the 60hp class.

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