Bajaj bails out Ktm before deadline

Beagle
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5/18/2025 9:48am Edited Date/Time 5/18/2025 9:51am
Kawboy14! wrote:
KTM's assets are valued at 316,872,061 euros. This figure was reported in a filing related to KTM's financial situation, which also included information about their debts...

KTM's assets are valued at 316,872,061 euros. This figure was reported in a filing related to KTM's financial situation, which also included information about their debts and number of creditors

Yes, PMG assets have been valued at about 15% of their debt. Which is precisely why the creditors voted for a plan to get 30%. It's not charity, they voted for this because that was the best they could get out of this mess. Sad but true.

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Tbteam
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5/18/2025 11:39am

Now that they are funded, for me the question is “what now”? You have a large manufacturer with a widely diverse product line. Massive losses and leaking finances that put them in this place. There have to be significant changes. Drop some brands? Drop some offerings in certain output classes? Drop sponsorships? Drop team participation in a few series? 

What’s next? It’s going to need to be changes that actually affect the bottom line in a major way. 

6
endurox
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5/18/2025 12:25pm

Will Bajaj increase their ownership past the current 49.9% with this Loan?

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SoCalMX70
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5/18/2025 12:38pm Edited Date/Time 5/18/2025 12:39pm
Tbteam wrote:
Now that they are funded, for me the question is “what now”? You have a large manufacturer with a widely diverse product line. Massive losses and...

Now that they are funded, for me the question is “what now”? You have a large manufacturer with a widely diverse product line. Massive losses and leaking finances that put them in this place. There have to be significant changes. Drop some brands? Drop some offerings in certain output classes? Drop sponsorships? Drop team participation in a few series? 

What’s next? It’s going to need to be changes that actually affect the bottom line in a major way. 

I think KTM's lack of diversity is actually part of their problem. They're not even 5% as diverse as any of the Japanese brands.

I still can't believe they ran with 3 dirtbike brands sharing 99% of the same parts. Multiple race teams under those brands too? Come on...

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eeazye
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5/18/2025 12:53pm

I’m no businessman, but know enough to scratch my head wondering how the board let this mess get that far, and how have they not tossed Pierer out on his ass? Is there just not a big enough group of shareholders to force this? 

I realize Pierer has a huge chunk of the stock, but I would believe he certainly could have been removed as the CEO long before it got that far. Or are the board members just as irresponsible? 

It seems in other businesses, when you run the ship aground, you don’t get to be the skipper anymore. 

1
5/18/2025 1:00pm Edited Date/Time 5/18/2025 1:03pm
eeazye wrote:
I’m no businessman, but know enough to scratch my head wondering how the board let this mess get that far, and how have they not tossed...

I’m no businessman, but know enough to scratch my head wondering how the board let this mess get that far, and how have they not tossed Pierer out on his ass? Is there just not a big enough group of shareholders to force this? 

I realize Pierer has a huge chunk of the stock, but I would believe he certainly could have been removed as the CEO long before it got that far. Or are the board members just as irresponsible? 

It seems in other businesses, when you run the ship aground, you don’t get to be the skipper anymore. 

Pierer is the majority shareholder of the company, so the board never really had power to "toss him on his ass." FWIW, he fired the board of directors in October leaving himself and his current personally-picked CEO Gottfried Neumeister.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/1058549/1/pierer-mobility-group-get-r…

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eeazye
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5/18/2025 1:03pm
eeazye wrote:
I’m no businessman, but know enough to scratch my head wondering how the board let this mess get that far, and how have they not tossed...

I’m no businessman, but know enough to scratch my head wondering how the board let this mess get that far, and how have they not tossed Pierer out on his ass? Is there just not a big enough group of shareholders to force this? 

I realize Pierer has a huge chunk of the stock, but I would believe he certainly could have been removed as the CEO long before it got that far. Or are the board members just as irresponsible? 

It seems in other businesses, when you run the ship aground, you don’t get to be the skipper anymore. 

Pierer is the majority shareholder of the company, so the board never really had power to "toss him on his ass." FWIW, he fired the board...

Pierer is the majority shareholder of the company, so the board never really had power to "toss him on his ass." FWIW, he fired the board of directors in October leaving himself and his current personally-picked CEO Gottfried Neumeister.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/1058549/1/pierer-mobility-group-get-r…

Well, answers that question. Good luck to Bajaj loaning this guy unsecured money. 

2
Beagle
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5/18/2025 2:00pm Edited Date/Time 5/18/2025 2:02pm
Tbteam wrote:
Now that they are funded, for me the question is “what now”? You have a large manufacturer with a widely diverse product line. Massive losses and...

Now that they are funded, for me the question is “what now”? You have a large manufacturer with a widely diverse product line. Massive losses and leaking finances that put them in this place. There have to be significant changes. Drop some brands? Drop some offerings in certain output classes? Drop sponsorships? Drop team participation in a few series? 

What’s next? It’s going to need to be changes that actually affect the bottom line in a major way. 

SoCalMX70 wrote:
I think KTM's lack of diversity is actually part of their problem. They're not even 5% as diverse as any of the Japanese brands.I still can't...

I think KTM's lack of diversity is actually part of their problem. They're not even 5% as diverse as any of the Japanese brands.

I still can't believe they ran with 3 dirtbike brands sharing 99% of the same parts. Multiple race teams under those brands too? Come on...

KTM alone (discounting GG and Husq) has a wider lineup of motorcycles than Honda or Yamaha. They make over 40 different motorcycles (discounting R, S editions and the like). Granted they don't make lawnmowers nor pianos.

1
5/18/2025 2:15pm Edited Date/Time 5/19/2025 6:31am
Tbteam wrote:
Now that they are funded, for me the question is “what now”? You have a large manufacturer with a widely diverse product line. Massive losses and...

Now that they are funded, for me the question is “what now”? You have a large manufacturer with a widely diverse product line. Massive losses and leaking finances that put them in this place. There have to be significant changes. Drop some brands? Drop some offerings in certain output classes? Drop sponsorships? Drop team participation in a few series? 

What’s next? It’s going to need to be changes that actually affect the bottom line in a major way. 

SoCalMX70 wrote:
I think KTM's lack of diversity is actually part of their problem. They're not even 5% as diverse as any of the Japanese brands.I still can't...

I think KTM's lack of diversity is actually part of their problem. They're not even 5% as diverse as any of the Japanese brands.

I still can't believe they ran with 3 dirtbike brands sharing 99% of the same parts. Multiple race teams under those brands too? Come on...

Beagle wrote:
KTM alone (discounting GG and Husq) has a wider lineup of motorcycles than Honda or Yamaha. They make over 40 different motorcycles (discounting R, S editions...

KTM alone (discounting GG and Husq) has a wider lineup of motorcycles than Honda or Yamaha. They make over 40 different motorcycles (discounting R, S editions and the like). Granted they don't make lawnmowers nor pianos.

Honda and Yamaha make so many more than 40 different motorcycle models, possibly hundreds each. But you are only looking at a tiny slice of them, because unlike KTM, most are market-tailored, not global models.

1
SoCalMX70
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5/18/2025 2:20pm
Tbteam wrote:
Now that they are funded, for me the question is “what now”? You have a large manufacturer with a widely diverse product line. Massive losses and...

Now that they are funded, for me the question is “what now”? You have a large manufacturer with a widely diverse product line. Massive losses and leaking finances that put them in this place. There have to be significant changes. Drop some brands? Drop some offerings in certain output classes? Drop sponsorships? Drop team participation in a few series? 

What’s next? It’s going to need to be changes that actually affect the bottom line in a major way. 

SoCalMX70 wrote:
I think KTM's lack of diversity is actually part of their problem. They're not even 5% as diverse as any of the Japanese brands.I still can't...

I think KTM's lack of diversity is actually part of their problem. They're not even 5% as diverse as any of the Japanese brands.

I still can't believe they ran with 3 dirtbike brands sharing 99% of the same parts. Multiple race teams under those brands too? Come on...

Beagle wrote:
KTM alone (discounting GG and Husq) has a wider lineup of motorcycles than Honda or Yamaha. They make over 40 different motorcycles (discounting R, S editions...

KTM alone (discounting GG and Husq) has a wider lineup of motorcycles than Honda or Yamaha. They make over 40 different motorcycles (discounting R, S editions and the like). Granted they don't make lawnmowers nor pianos.

I'm talking about the company as a whole. Over 40 motorcycles? Ok, but what other industries are they in? That's what I'm getting at. 

Folks like to make fun of Suzuki like they are poor or something. Suzuki can dump as much or as little into their moto or race program on a whim without really blinking at their financials... They just don't have an appetite for it right now.

KTMs 2024 revenue was $1.9b. Suzuki was $37.6b (though I saw another source showing 48.9, but you get the point)

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DonM
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5/18/2025 2:37pm
eeazye wrote:
I’m no businessman, but know enough to scratch my head wondering how the board let this mess get that far, and how have they not tossed...

I’m no businessman, but know enough to scratch my head wondering how the board let this mess get that far, and how have they not tossed Pierer out on his ass? Is there just not a big enough group of shareholders to force this? 

I realize Pierer has a huge chunk of the stock, but I would believe he certainly could have been removed as the CEO long before it got that far. Or are the board members just as irresponsible? 

It seems in other businesses, when you run the ship aground, you don’t get to be the skipper anymore. 

Pierer is the majority shareholder of the company, so the board never really had power to "toss him on his ass." FWIW, he fired the board...

Pierer is the majority shareholder of the company, so the board never really had power to "toss him on his ass." FWIW, he fired the board of directors in October leaving himself and his current personally-picked CEO Gottfried Neumeister.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/1058549/1/pierer-mobility-group-get-r…

eeazye wrote:

Well, answers that question. Good luck to Bajaj loaning this guy unsecured money. 

Unsecured? you sure about that? Bajaj got the unsecured loan and I can guarantee you that the money they give KTM is secured....by stock

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eeazye
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5/18/2025 2:55pm
Pierer is the majority shareholder of the company, so the board never really had power to "toss him on his ass." FWIW, he fired the board...

Pierer is the majority shareholder of the company, so the board never really had power to "toss him on his ass." FWIW, he fired the board of directors in October leaving himself and his current personally-picked CEO Gottfried Neumeister.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/1058549/1/pierer-mobility-group-get-r…

eeazye wrote:

Well, answers that question. Good luck to Bajaj loaning this guy unsecured money. 

DonM wrote:

Unsecured? you sure about that? Bajaj got the unsecured loan and I can guarantee you that the money they give KTM is secured....by stock

You’re right, that is an important distinction I mis-read. 

Beagle
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5/18/2025 3:27pm
SoCalMX70 wrote:
I think KTM's lack of diversity is actually part of their problem. They're not even 5% as diverse as any of the Japanese brands.I still can't...

I think KTM's lack of diversity is actually part of their problem. They're not even 5% as diverse as any of the Japanese brands.

I still can't believe they ran with 3 dirtbike brands sharing 99% of the same parts. Multiple race teams under those brands too? Come on...

Beagle wrote:
KTM alone (discounting GG and Husq) has a wider lineup of motorcycles than Honda or Yamaha. They make over 40 different motorcycles (discounting R, S editions...

KTM alone (discounting GG and Husq) has a wider lineup of motorcycles than Honda or Yamaha. They make over 40 different motorcycles (discounting R, S editions and the like). Granted they don't make lawnmowers nor pianos.

Honda and Yamaha make so many more than 40 different motorcycle models, possibly hundreds each. But you are only looking at a tiny slice of them...

Honda and Yamaha make so many more than 40 different motorcycle models, possibly hundreds each. But you are only looking at a tiny slice of them, because unlike KTM, most are market-tailored, not global models.

Not sure about hundreds but good point, didn't think about small capacity for Asian market.

5/18/2025 3:39pm Edited Date/Time 5/18/2025 5:36pm
Beagle wrote:
KTM alone (discounting GG and Husq) has a wider lineup of motorcycles than Honda or Yamaha. They make over 40 different motorcycles (discounting R, S editions...

KTM alone (discounting GG and Husq) has a wider lineup of motorcycles than Honda or Yamaha. They make over 40 different motorcycles (discounting R, S editions and the like). Granted they don't make lawnmowers nor pianos.

Honda and Yamaha make so many more than 40 different motorcycle models, possibly hundreds each. But you are only looking at a tiny slice of them...

Honda and Yamaha make so many more than 40 different motorcycle models, possibly hundreds each. But you are only looking at a tiny slice of them, because unlike KTM, most are market-tailored, not global models.

Beagle wrote:

Not sure about hundreds but good point, didn't think about small capacity for Asian market.

But Asia isn't a single market either. They have completely different lineups for the many markets within Asia itself. Thailand have unique models from India, China, Phillipines, Japan, etc. There's also discrete factories and model lineups for Latin America.

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APLMAN99
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5/18/2025 3:46pm
RDnutz wrote:
"The funds will be used for Bajaj Auto’s investments, according to the filing which does not name KTM."How does this help the motorcycle side of things...

"The funds will be used for Bajaj Auto’s investments, according to the filing which does not name KTM."

How does this help the motorcycle side of things? If the funds are targeted to the auto investments to get the loan, but end up getting used for bailing out KTM motorcycles- isn't that a breach of the loan terms and likely to void the loan and creditors could demand immediate full payment as a remedy? Liquidation would seem to be inevitable at that point. 

I’m pretty sure that Bajaj Auto is the motorcycle company. 

Beagle
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5/18/2025 3:49pm
SoCalMX70 wrote:
I think KTM's lack of diversity is actually part of their problem. They're not even 5% as diverse as any of the Japanese brands.I still can't...

I think KTM's lack of diversity is actually part of their problem. They're not even 5% as diverse as any of the Japanese brands.

I still can't believe they ran with 3 dirtbike brands sharing 99% of the same parts. Multiple race teams under those brands too? Come on...

Beagle wrote:
KTM alone (discounting GG and Husq) has a wider lineup of motorcycles than Honda or Yamaha. They make over 40 different motorcycles (discounting R, S editions...

KTM alone (discounting GG and Husq) has a wider lineup of motorcycles than Honda or Yamaha. They make over 40 different motorcycles (discounting R, S editions and the like). Granted they don't make lawnmowers nor pianos.

SoCalMX70 wrote:
I'm talking about the company as a whole. Over 40 motorcycles? Ok, but what other industries are they in? That's what I'm getting at. Folks like to...

I'm talking about the company as a whole. Over 40 motorcycles? Ok, but what other industries are they in? That's what I'm getting at. 

Folks like to make fun of Suzuki like they are poor or something. Suzuki can dump as much or as little into their moto or race program on a whim without really blinking at their financials... They just don't have an appetite for it right now.

KTMs 2024 revenue was $1.9b. Suzuki was $37.6b (though I saw another source showing 48.9, but you get the point)

If you're talking about the global brand diversity, Kawasaki is my favorite player, KHI makes ISS space module, planes, helicopters, jet engines, missiles, container ships, submarines, robots, turbines, tunnel boring machines... 

Please note the only way it's allowed to talk about "Kawasaki boring machines" is to precede this with "tunnel".

3
5/18/2025 3:59pm
Beagle wrote:
KTM alone (discounting GG and Husq) has a wider lineup of motorcycles than Honda or Yamaha. They make over 40 different motorcycles (discounting R, S editions...

KTM alone (discounting GG and Husq) has a wider lineup of motorcycles than Honda or Yamaha. They make over 40 different motorcycles (discounting R, S editions and the like). Granted they don't make lawnmowers nor pianos.

SoCalMX70 wrote:
I'm talking about the company as a whole. Over 40 motorcycles? Ok, but what other industries are they in? That's what I'm getting at. Folks like to...

I'm talking about the company as a whole. Over 40 motorcycles? Ok, but what other industries are they in? That's what I'm getting at. 

Folks like to make fun of Suzuki like they are poor or something. Suzuki can dump as much or as little into their moto or race program on a whim without really blinking at their financials... They just don't have an appetite for it right now.

KTMs 2024 revenue was $1.9b. Suzuki was $37.6b (though I saw another source showing 48.9, but you get the point)

Beagle wrote:
If you're talking about the global brand diversity, Kawasaki is my favorite player, KHI makes ISS space module, planes, helicopters, jet engines, missiles, container ships, submarines...

If you're talking about the global brand diversity, Kawasaki is my favorite player, KHI makes ISS space module, planes, helicopters, jet engines, missiles, container ships, submarines, robots, turbines, tunnel boring machines... 

Please note the only way it's allowed to talk about "Kawasaki boring machines" is to precede this with "tunnel".

Yep kawi engine in my cub cadet mower

3
Beagle
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5/19/2025 12:45pm

Bajaj Auto 2024 numbers:

$5.4B revenue

$0.9B net income

Market cap $29B

Its parent company, Bajaj group, has a market cap of $167B, that's 3 times larger than Honda.

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endurox
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5/19/2025 1:48pm

That's great that Bajaj has allowed KTM to survive again. How does PMG come up with the money to pay for components before delivery and the 80 million euro loan to the Remus guy? 

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Beagle
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5/19/2025 2:08pm
endurox wrote:
That's great that Bajaj has allowed KTM to survive again. How does PMG come up with the money to pay for components before delivery and the...

That's great that Bajaj has allowed KTM to survive again. How does PMG come up with the money to pay for components before delivery and the 80 million euro loan to the Remus guy? 

That might be more Bajaj taking over PMG than Bajaj saving Pierer's bacon once again for more of the same.

We'll know more in a few days.

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1
5/19/2025 2:11pm Edited Date/Time 5/19/2025 5:23pm
endurox wrote:
That's great that Bajaj has allowed KTM to survive again. How does PMG come up with the money to pay for components before delivery and the...

That's great that Bajaj has allowed KTM to survive again. How does PMG come up with the money to pay for components before delivery and the 80 million euro loan to the Remus guy? 

I don't think the Remus guy is as much of a general business issue as the rest. According to his court filings, Remus guy was on the board at KTM and made a handshake agreement to loan a boatload of money personally to his buddy and business partner, Stephan Pierer, to keep KTM running. Pierer made some wild promises of future KTM stock in exchange. That's dumb business on both their parts, and the suit may have some traction, but I don't see how it applies to KTM as a business entity.

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Falcon
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5/21/2025 8:11am
Beagle wrote:
KTM alone (discounting GG and Husq) has a wider lineup of motorcycles than Honda or Yamaha. They make over 40 different motorcycles (discounting R, S editions...

KTM alone (discounting GG and Husq) has a wider lineup of motorcycles than Honda or Yamaha. They make over 40 different motorcycles (discounting R, S editions and the like). Granted they don't make lawnmowers nor pianos.

SoCalMX70 wrote:
I'm talking about the company as a whole. Over 40 motorcycles? Ok, but what other industries are they in? That's what I'm getting at. Folks like to...

I'm talking about the company as a whole. Over 40 motorcycles? Ok, but what other industries are they in? That's what I'm getting at. 

Folks like to make fun of Suzuki like they are poor or something. Suzuki can dump as much or as little into their moto or race program on a whim without really blinking at their financials... They just don't have an appetite for it right now.

KTMs 2024 revenue was $1.9b. Suzuki was $37.6b (though I saw another source showing 48.9, but you get the point)

Beagle wrote:
If you're talking about the global brand diversity, Kawasaki is my favorite player, KHI makes ISS space module, planes, helicopters, jet engines, missiles, container ships, submarines...

If you're talking about the global brand diversity, Kawasaki is my favorite player, KHI makes ISS space module, planes, helicopters, jet engines, missiles, container ships, submarines, robots, turbines, tunnel boring machines... 

Please note the only way it's allowed to talk about "Kawasaki boring machines" is to precede this with "tunnel".

A lot of people don't know that their favorite brands have lots of other products. 

Yamaha makes crop-spraying helicopters, pre-fabricated swimming pool inserts, and manufactures engines for Toyota, among other interests. Kawasaki does all the heavy industry stuff, as you mentioned above, as does Hyundai (you've probably seen a Hyundai logo on a tractor-trailer going down the freeway).

Suzuki is a great example of diversity keeping a company afloat. In the early 1900s, that company started out selling looms to clothing manufacturers. They then moved to bicycles, and later motorcycles. Finally, they adopted cars and became one of the biggest players in their domestic market, with global influence. Can't stick to one thing if you want to survive, especially if that thing is niche. 

2
5/21/2025 9:31am Edited Date/Time 5/21/2025 9:31am

Well Sh____ now what negative false info can we make up to create our own narrative about the KTM brand to make ourselves feel more valuable?? 

 

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Beagle
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5/21/2025 11:39am
Falcon wrote:
A lot of people don't know that their favorite brands have lots of other products. Yamaha makes crop-spraying helicopters, pre-fabricated swimming pool inserts, and manufactures engines for...

A lot of people don't know that their favorite brands have lots of other products. 

Yamaha makes crop-spraying helicopters, pre-fabricated swimming pool inserts, and manufactures engines for Toyota, among other interests. Kawasaki does all the heavy industry stuff, as you mentioned above, as does Hyundai (you've probably seen a Hyundai logo on a tractor-trailer going down the freeway).

Suzuki is a great example of diversity keeping a company afloat. In the early 1900s, that company started out selling looms to clothing manufacturers. They then moved to bicycles, and later motorcycles. Finally, they adopted cars and became one of the biggest players in their domestic market, with global influence. Can't stick to one thing if you want to survive, especially if that thing is niche. 

Or you can stay a niche manufacturer pretty much independent if you have an understanding owner 😉

17478433633403514887014754877032.jpg?VersionId=15NhNPITPNNSDEF9hv9qrHm317478526764347246782262536677793
gt80rider
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5/21/2025 12:36pm

Damnnnn I love these ktm is dying threads. What goes around, comes around.

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