Professional Training Facilities and Rider's Success

Speeddemon73
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259
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5/7/2013
Location
Grand Rapids, MI US
Edited Date/Time 9/29/2023 6:42am

Hey All,

I want to preface this by saying this is in no way meant to bag on training facilities or the services they offer. I am merely trying to open a discussion on other's thoughts on these facilities. 

One of the things that I have been noticing over the years is that the top motocross and supercross champions were not products of the big name amatuer training facilities aside from a very small list. Current riders that are fighting for the top spots such as Deegan, Shimoda, both Lawrence brothers, Plessinger, Tomac, etc were not products of the big name practice/training facilities and basically raced their way to gain technique aside from occasional coaching from private parties. Over the years I have heard and seen families sell their houses and move to (insert big name training facility) to chase the dream only to wind up right where they were in the beginning. So this begs the questions, is sending your fast kid to a training facility the best way to guarantee their shot at having a pro career at racing motocross? Or could your kid benefit more by just racing and getting occasional coaching from a private party to keep their skills on par? Using Deegan as an example, Brian had his son basically race his way up and didn't spend any significant amount of time running mindless laps at a training camp in his amatuer career. He believed in racing is the best training and I think it worked well...

One of the claims from training facilities is that they can replicate race days to train your kids. This is where I have a disagreement. Nothing can replicate the anxiety, excitement, and general feelings or nervousness on a race day morning. That is one of the biggest things I would argue a rider has to face on any given race day. 

So my question to you all is, do you think professional training facilities are still the best bet for a kid who wants a shot at a pro career in motocross? 

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yak651
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Appleton, WI US
Fantasy
9/29/2023 7:04am

Think the concept of the facility is good and sending your kid to one for a couple weeks through the summer could be beneficial but don’t see the point of having your kid live at one and ride the same track with the same people all summer long. I may be a bit biased as I feel the facilities hurt local racing by the “it” kids never racing local but I think racing and gate drops are more beneficial to a kids growth

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Motogoof
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CA
9/29/2023 7:13am
yak651 wrote:
Think the concept of the facility is good and sending your kid to one for a couple weeks through the summer could be beneficial but don’t...

Think the concept of the facility is good and sending your kid to one for a couple weeks through the summer could be beneficial but don’t see the point of having your kid live at one and ride the same track with the same people all summer long. I may be a bit biased as I feel the facilities hurt local racing by the “it” kids never racing local but I think racing and gate drops are more beneficial to a kids growth

I agree with this 100%. Save your money and go to more races. Keep it fun.

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9/29/2023 7:31am

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I believe these training facilities are a waste of time and money. 50% or more of the kids will never make it and these parents spend thousands sending them there. I’m glad it’s added some jobs for people in the industry, but I feel like a lot of them are just a “money grab” and prey on these mini parents.

Agree with Yak in being a good thing to send your kid to for a few weeks almost like a summer camp type of deal, but to live there and train there all year round is just too much. And I don’t care what anyone says, those kids aren’t replicating race days. They are programmed to ride the same line every lap and have a hard time switching off of the one fast/burned in line. 

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motomind132
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Chicago , IL US
9/29/2023 7:45am

Most of theses places, clubmx  and sob for sure push for the guys to go racing on the weekends. When I was at club specifically on Monday they would tell everyone where some races are and see whos racing where, wed they would check in with those guys and friday they would bring it up again and see who's racing.

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kijen
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Jacksonville, FL US
9/29/2023 8:23am

Seems places like MTF were very successful 10-15 years ago with top guys, but as more facilities became popular seems things have evened out. Note that the best of the best have a personal coach. 

Speeddemon73
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Grand Rapids, MI US
9/29/2023 8:28am
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I believe these training facilities are a waste of time and money. 50% or more of the kids will never make...

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I believe these training facilities are a waste of time and money. 50% or more of the kids will never make it and these parents spend thousands sending them there. I’m glad it’s added some jobs for people in the industry, but I feel like a lot of them are just a “money grab” and prey on these mini parents.

Agree with Yak in being a good thing to send your kid to for a few weeks almost like a summer camp type of deal, but to live there and train there all year round is just too much. And I don’t care what anyone says, those kids aren’t replicating race days. They are programmed to ride the same line every lap and have a hard time switching off of the one fast/burned in line. 

I've seen some kids who go there as fast amatuers and don't make it out of there into the pros and end up becoming staff at the training facility. To your other point, I think this is why we don't see a whole lot of passing anymore because everyone kind of settles into a rhythm, hitting the same lines, same ruts, scrubbing the same way over everything. You can definitely tell someone who has raced their entire amatuer career vs. someone who's been at a training facility their whole life. 

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GPS
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Winnipeg CA
9/29/2023 8:46am Edited Date/Time 9/29/2023 8:50am

In the last 15 years, I think the only one to win championships & most successful is Barcia? 
And even then, his overall time as an amateur at a facility was near the end?

 

KHNC
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East Flat Rock, NC US
9/29/2023 9:01am

I went to the Bennick (Dax) compound in Marion NC last week. It is one awesome facility. They have Dax's former mechanic Kyle Travis working as a trainer for young riders. Seem to be having success. Several of them went to Lorettas and I think they did pretty well. Dax certainly has benefited tremendously from having such a place to ride. Also, being the son of a pro rider certainly helps a bunch on the early learning curve. I think its somewhat of an advantage to have access to a trainer and a top notch facility. 

zehn
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Anchorage, AK US
9/29/2023 10:06am

Racers race. Kids should be getting tons of gate drops IMO. They facility thing has serious drawbacks as mentioned earlier

If you have access to quality race series with good competition, your time and money is better spent there. Take the savings and ride twice a week 

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TeamGreen
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Thru-out, CA US
9/29/2023 11:02am

While I think set-ups like Yamaha's and Triumph's "compounds" make sense, I do believe a lot of people have put way too much faith in the idea of "the training compound" to the point that they're ruining it for their kid/kids.

In the case of a Team compound or even Baker's or the Lawrence's places? That's pros working at the professional level...which makes sense.

Recently, I was a part of a conversation...which has happened quite a bit these last few years...regarding the cost and in some cases the "contractual entanglements" in regards to certain training compounds and what some Teams seem to actually "require".

In some of our very recent team/rider changes that we've all seen, some of those riders were very specific in their acceptance/rejection of this new world of "training facility" requirements and locations. I find that to be kind of refreshing. In contrast, one of the teams is trying to make the rider's 'on-site lodging' separate..private...affordable (dare I say "little or no cost"?!). Nice! Must be someone that actually gets it and wants their riders to be happy and NOT get burnt out. Yup..Nice!

Training Facilities have their place; but, they sure as hell aren't the "Total Solution" that a few too many people in this sport have made them out to be. I, personally, know too damn many people that...as the OP mentions...went all-in on the whole compound thing for a rider that can barely get to LL's. Think about that! I'm sorry...but, that's just nuts.

Anyone have any thoughts on "riding too much" or how we still don't seem to have enough people in this biz that understand the value of down-time/recovery/enjoying life beyond the track...? Well, there's a segue into another conversation that'll go in all sorts of directions! Laughing

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ratbeagle139
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Lazy E, OK US
9/29/2023 11:07am Edited Date/Time 9/29/2023 11:17am

Not here to debate their effectiveness, but I do believe that their more responsible for us losing our local tracks all over the country than we give them credit for. I’m only 32 and I’d say 55-70% of the tracks I grew up racing on no longer exist. Used to go racing 3 nights a week with 300-400 rider turnouts at each track, seems like track owners jump up and down now if they hit 200 (not including one-off multi-day events). And there’s definitely no shortage of riders at the moment.. I think a healthy district-racing scene is a must in our sport, not everybody has a dad who raced and can introduce them to all of this. Those local tracks that are becoming extinct are what got random folks to pull over and discover our sport for a longggg time. Pure curiosity. I was that kid who found it all by myself going to watch a friend’s dad race stock cars at our local speedway, wondered over to the MX races going on next door and it’s been true-love ever since. Hard for that to happen now that you’ve gotta drive 2 hours into bumf*ck for a kid to see a bike. 

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Old Mate
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9/29/2023 11:24am

IMG 1313.jpeg?VersionId=7

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9/29/2023 11:29am
I've seen some kids who go there as fast amatuers and don't make it out of there into the pros and end up becoming staff at...

I've seen some kids who go there as fast amatuers and don't make it out of there into the pros and end up becoming staff at the training facility. To your other point, I think this is why we don't see a whole lot of passing anymore because everyone kind of settles into a rhythm, hitting the same lines, same ruts, scrubbing the same way over everything. You can definitely tell someone who has raced their entire amatuer career vs. someone who's been at a training facility their whole life. 

laugh 0

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Speeddemon73
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Grand Rapids, MI US
9/29/2023 11:40am
TeamGreen wrote:
While I think set-ups like Yamaha's and Triumph's "compounds" make sense, I do believe a lot of people have put way too much faith in the...

While I think set-ups like Yamaha's and Triumph's "compounds" make sense, I do believe a lot of people have put way too much faith in the idea of "the training compound" to the point that they're ruining it for their kid/kids.

In the case of a Team compound or even Baker's or the Lawrence's places? That's pros working at the professional level...which makes sense.

Recently, I was a part of a conversation...which has happened quite a bit these last few years...regarding the cost and in some cases the "contractual entanglements" in regards to certain training compounds and what some Teams seem to actually "require".

In some of our very recent team/rider changes that we've all seen, some of those riders were very specific in their acceptance/rejection of this new world of "training facility" requirements and locations. I find that to be kind of refreshing. In contrast, one of the teams is trying to make the rider's 'on-site lodging' separate..private...affordable (dare I say "little or no cost"?!). Nice! Must be someone that actually gets it and wants their riders to be happy and NOT get burnt out. Yup..Nice!

Training Facilities have their place; but, they sure as hell aren't the "Total Solution" that a few too many people in this sport have made them out to be. I, personally, know too damn many people that...as the OP mentions...went all-in on the whole compound thing for a rider that can barely get to LL's. Think about that! I'm sorry...but, that's just nuts.

Anyone have any thoughts on "riding too much" or how we still don't seem to have enough people in this biz that understand the value of down-time/recovery/enjoying life beyond the track...? Well, there's a segue into another conversation that'll go in all sorts of directions! Laughing

I agree with the idea of compounds at the professional level. When riders are at that point I think it makes the most sense to avoid local guys trying to "prove" themselves against pro riders at potential injuring a rider. But on the topic of training facilities killing local moto, I also completely agree and have seen it personally. I'm 32, and I grew up during the time when the idea of training facilities for amatuers was just starting. I remember people talking about going to MTF for a week during the summer, but that was the extent of the stay. Just a few days and then back home. Soon after that people started putting so much focus on Loretta's that they would only race local qualifiers, regionals, and if they didn't make it to Loretta's they wouldn't race the rest of the year. Just hit the practice tracks the rest of the year. Probably the biggest reason our A & B classes only have a handful of riders in them most of the year. 

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Mjones618
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Claremore, OK US
9/29/2023 11:51am

I don't have any experience on this topic so can't really have an opinion but as for these young kids under the age of 10 living and training at these facilities, is crazy to me. How do we know if the kid is even gonna like riding dirt bikes when he goes pro? The burnt out rate is so high for those that all they know is pounding laps on their dirt bike. What if it doesn't work out and now you have no life skills for a career. I think going to a faculty for a few weeks out of the year is plenty beneficial. But living there and training for months and months. Not worth the risk of burn out

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PhunnyGuy
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9/29/2023 11:59am

Its surprising to me that these training facilities are able to keep such a strong customer base, considering there is next to zero gold at the end of the tunnel for 99.9% of the families who patronize these facilities. 

Break down the cost of staying at Club or MtF for a year. You have $15k for your spot. You're going to go through 4 bikes at least in a year, that is another $12k after resale. Parts, supplies, et cetera easily another $8k a year assuming you are doing most of your own day to day bike work. Then one parent almost has to give up a day job to sit down there and babysit a kid under 14 or so. So you're in it for $35-40k a year plus the opportunity cost of a parent working. It will probably take 3-5 years of being at the facility for your kid to be a top 10 or so B rider, and even then the chances of recouping any of that money spent are next to zero, as any factory or support team for the most part is going to ignore a training facility kid and pick one of the "chosen" ones anyway who they had in the pipeline for several years. 

Could you imagine getting fleeced for $100-200k just to be able to tell your friends, "I sent my son to an MtF training academy." They're going to ask what drag bar he plans on finding employment at. 

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JonM37
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Deltona, FL US
9/30/2023 1:23pm

I think they have their place and do help riders get used to high intensity races. We’ve not sent our son full time.  He has done some weekly camps here and there which helps.  We couldn’t afford to send him full time anyway and we aren’t willing to mortgage it all on the slim chance of making it.  He does miss out on the benefits of motos with other top level amateurs, but he can still run a decent pace.  It may be the difference between 4th and a win, but the cost is too much. 

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Spergen
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9/30/2023 1:37pm Edited Date/Time 9/30/2023 1:38pm

This is what the fast kids need, but what do I know?

 

 

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lumpy790
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York, SC US
9/30/2023 3:32pm

It’s an investment.

How much is 1 year of college?

Well a college can not teach you what you can quickly learn in a training facility.

I went to several of Gary Bailey schools but times have changed.

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zehn
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9/30/2023 3:40pm
lumpy790 wrote:
It’s an investment. How much is 1 year of college? Well a college can not teach you what you can quickly learn in a training facility...

It’s an investment.

How much is 1 year of college?

Well a college can not teach you what you can quickly learn in a training facility.

I went to several of Gary Bailey schools but times have changed.

Are you really comparing the cost (and benefit) of college vs. a moto training academy? 

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PhunnyGuy
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9/30/2023 4:05pm
lumpy790 wrote:
It’s an investment. How much is 1 year of college? Well a college can not teach you what you can quickly learn in a training facility...

It’s an investment.

How much is 1 year of college?

Well a college can not teach you what you can quickly learn in a training facility.

I went to several of Gary Bailey schools but times have changed.

The training facility doesn't teach you any real skills other than how to exercise professionally.

You can argue that professional riding skills are learned, but the reality is these riders never formed the fine motor skills of the best riders at an early age, so any riding improvements or skill sets developed here are a complete waste as the riders have no future in the sport against those that developed better earlier 

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CHaynes
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Edgewater, MD US
9/30/2023 4:46pm
Old Mate wrote:

IMG 1313.jpeg?VersionId=7

I had a chance to spend some time with Jayo Archer recently.  He had some great things to say about you and your program.  He was telling me all kinds of stuff about "jumping the bumps" that you drove into their riding technique, had some awesome stories.  

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cwel11
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Orangeville, PA US
9/30/2023 5:41pm
lumpy790 wrote:
It’s an investment. How much is 1 year of college? Well a college can not teach you what you can quickly learn in a training facility...

It’s an investment.

How much is 1 year of college?

Well a college can not teach you what you can quickly learn in a training facility.

I went to several of Gary Bailey schools but times have changed.

zehn wrote:

Are you really comparing the cost (and benefit) of college vs. a moto training academy? 

From what I’ve seen of the work ethic of college graduates as of late an mx training academy may indeed  be a better idea lol 

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PhunnyGuy
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9/30/2023 6:35pm
cwel11 wrote:

From what I’ve seen of the work ethic of college graduates as of late an mx training academy may indeed  be a better idea lol 

In my experience most of the training facility kids did their motos for the day and usually an hour at the gym. Mom or a group mechanic did all the bike work. They spent the rest of the time playing video games or pit bikes. Some good this work ethic does you in the real world when you skipped algebra after barely learning to read and write.

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cwel11
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10/1/2023 2:55am
cwel11 wrote:

From what I’ve seen of the work ethic of college graduates as of late an mx training academy may indeed  be a better idea lol 

PhunnyGuy wrote:
In my experience most of the training facility kids did their motos for the day and usually an hour at the gym. Mom or a group...

In my experience most of the training facility kids did their motos for the day and usually an hour at the gym. Mom or a group mechanic did all the bike work. They spent the rest of the time playing video games or pit bikes. Some good this work ethic does you in the real world when you skipped algebra after barely learning to read and write.

Oh I’m sure there’s more than a few of them out there. There’s also plenty of 4 year degrees in gender studies with a minor in basket weaving. 

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Old Mate
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10/1/2023 4:27am
Old Mate wrote:

IMG 1313.jpeg?VersionId=7

CHaynes wrote:
I had a chance to spend some time with Jayo Archer recently.  He had some great things to say about you and your program.  He was...

I had a chance to spend some time with Jayo Archer recently.  He had some great things to say about you and your program.  He was telling me all kinds of stuff about "jumping the bumps" that you drove into their riding technique, had some awesome stories.  

👍👊💯

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kage173
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TX US
10/1/2023 8:13pm

Whats the difference between kids living at a facility, kids that have a track at home and a coach, and kids that drive to a track 4-5 x a week to train with a coach? 

Every pro rode 3-5x per week and had a knowledgeable person coaching them when they were growing up. A training facility isnt any different than any other way of doing it.

 

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