Stark Vargs (as in plural)

yota
Posts
1421
Joined
6/23/2008
Location
Crystal River, FL US
8/6/2023 4:31pm

sounds sick.  no, not really.  hope it works out but hate the sound.

1
keinz
Posts
2431
Joined
9/26/2011
Location
Tallinn, Harjumaa EE
8/7/2023 12:11am
keinz wrote:
Our demos arrived

Our demos arrived

crt32 wrote:

Does it run or just display? 

Fully functional bike

1
8/7/2023 2:15am
keinz wrote:
Our demos arrived

Our demos arrived

crt32 wrote:

Does it run or just display? 

keinz wrote:

Fully functional bike

I wonder how many Varg's Stark has shipped.

What are the frame numbers?

1
#434
Posts
1913
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
8/7/2023 3:39am
It's a new product, with new technology, it will have issues, just like other new technology (Windows, iPhone) the first 2 generations have issues, by the...

It's a new product, with new technology, it will have issues, just like other new technology (Windows, iPhone) the first 2 generations have issues, by the 3rd generation Stark would have sorted the bugs out!

Goldmember wrote:
It's ancient technology being used in the motor and battery. That is the problem. Not everyone is duped by Stark hype. Permanent magnet motors, with wound...

It's ancient technology being used in the motor and battery. That is the problem. Not everyone is duped by Stark hype.

Permanent magnet motors, with wound stators, date from the 1830s. Then, as now if the rotor magnets are overheated, the motor can easily be ruined.

The lithium ion battery technology was first shown in 1912, revisited in the 1970s and commercialised in the 1990s. It long ago effectively maxed it's storage capacity, and is ruined if overheated

I have a question towards your claim that storage capacity of lithium ion batteries has effectively maxed out long ago: how do you come to that conclusion?

This report from the US department for energy says there’s been a steady increase in capacity over the last decade:

Here’s the report with a link to their source of information: https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1234-april-18-2022-volumetric-energy-density-lithium-ion-batteries

3BF2B530-34F9-4F0A-A849-ACBEB4DE4E44.jpeg?VersionId=rvC3t Y9iSA0YQ2JKguJLmix

6
2

The Shop

OwenJakes
Posts
1705
Joined
6/30/2023
Location
sebree, KY US
8/7/2023 9:41am
#434 wrote:
Bizzaro world? Watch closely at the track how many laps most guys are doing. It looks to me that half of the guys can’t do more...

Bizzaro world? Watch closely at the track how many laps most guys are doing. It looks to me that half of the guys can’t do more than 4 laps at speed… they could buy an eMX with half the battery size of the Varg and wouldn’t have a problem.

Yes, but 1% of riders are national level pros, who can go flat out for 35 minutes!

brocster wrote:
The percentage that can go flat out for 35 minutes is way less than 1%. Do you not watch MX and see all the guys in...

The percentage that can go flat out for 35 minutes is way less than 1%. Do you not watch MX and see all the guys in the fast 40 rolling around caused they are gassed, not the bike?  Yes they can smoke my ass just rolling around but the EGO trip of posters on this board is astounding thinking that battery life would change any of their current riding activity. 

This confuses me. I use almost 3 gallons of gas on a well jetted 250 and usually ride for about 1.3-1.5 hours. Tell me how a bike that is limited to 30 hardcore minutes of riding is not a changing my current riding situation? 

Never mind that it sounds like a pissed off cat.

2
2
Broseph
Posts
1188
Joined
4/28/2018
Location
Stevenson, WA US
8/7/2023 10:20am Edited Date/Time 8/12/2023 8:11pm
It's a new product, with new technology, it will have issues, just like other new technology (Windows, iPhone) the first 2 generations have issues, by the...

It's a new product, with new technology, it will have issues, just like other new technology (Windows, iPhone) the first 2 generations have issues, by the 3rd generation Stark would have sorted the bugs out!

Goldmember wrote:
It's ancient technology being used in the motor and battery. That is the problem. Not everyone is duped by Stark hype. Permanent magnet motors, with wound...

It's ancient technology being used in the motor and battery. That is the problem. Not everyone is duped by Stark hype.

Permanent magnet motors, with wound stators, date from the 1830s. Then, as now if the rotor magnets are overheated, the motor can easily be ruined.

The lithium ion battery technology was first shown in 1912, revisited in the 1970s and commercialised in the 1990s. It long ago effectively maxed it's storage capacity, and is ruined if overheated

#434 wrote:
I have a question towards your claim that storage capacity of lithium ion batteries has effectively maxed out long ago: how do you come to that...

I have a question towards your claim that storage capacity of lithium ion batteries has effectively maxed out long ago: how do you come to that conclusion?

This report from the US department for energy says there’s been a steady increase in capacity over the last decade:

Here’s the report with a link to their source of information: https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1234-april-18-2022-volumetric-energy-density-lithium-ion-batteries

3BF2B530-34F9-4F0A-A849-ACBEB4DE4E44.jpeg?VersionId=rvC3t Y9iSA0YQ2JKguJLmix

Power density by volume is an odd metric and seems applicable to consumer electronics only. Watt-hrs per kg would be a more helpful chart when discussing vehicles where volume isn’t really a limiting factor but weight is.

2
8/7/2023 10:27am

Yes, but 1% of riders are national level pros, who can go flat out for 35 minutes!

brocster wrote:
The percentage that can go flat out for 35 minutes is way less than 1%. Do you not watch MX and see all the guys in...

The percentage that can go flat out for 35 minutes is way less than 1%. Do you not watch MX and see all the guys in the fast 40 rolling around caused they are gassed, not the bike?  Yes they can smoke my ass just rolling around but the EGO trip of posters on this board is astounding thinking that battery life would change any of their current riding activity. 

OwenJakes wrote:
This confuses me. I use almost 3 gallons of gas on a well jetted 250 and usually ride for about 1.3-1.5 hours. Tell me how a...

This confuses me. I use almost 3 gallons of gas on a well jetted 250 and usually ride for about 1.3-1.5 hours. Tell me how a bike that is limited to 30 hardcore minutes of riding is not a changing my current riding situation? 

Never mind that it sounds like a pissed off cat.

The guy that killed a Varg battery in 25 minutes  in 95F weather could go through a FULL tank ( 1.7- 2 gallons) on a 450 in a 30 minute moto.  Factory riders have runout of gas at Southwick multiple times as well as other tracks in 30 minutes or less.  

If You are able to ride at Pro level speed for that amount of time without stopping , then You would not fall into the group he was referring to. 

If You can ride for an Hour and a half on 3 gallons of gas You would likely fit into the 40ish minute  group of riders. And You could  do (2) 40 minute motos taking a single charging break. I do not mean this as an insult, I'm just basing what the riders in that " less than 1%" comment  can do on 3 gallons of gas.   They may get 45 to 50 minutes out of that 3 gallons on a 250 2 stroke.

4
3
#434
Posts
1913
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
8/7/2023 11:33am Edited Date/Time 8/7/2023 11:33am
Goldmember wrote:
It's ancient technology being used in the motor and battery. That is the problem. Not everyone is duped by Stark hype. Permanent magnet motors, with wound...

It's ancient technology being used in the motor and battery. That is the problem. Not everyone is duped by Stark hype.

Permanent magnet motors, with wound stators, date from the 1830s. Then, as now if the rotor magnets are overheated, the motor can easily be ruined.

The lithium ion battery technology was first shown in 1912, revisited in the 1970s and commercialised in the 1990s. It long ago effectively maxed it's storage capacity, and is ruined if overheated

#434 wrote:
I have a question towards your claim that storage capacity of lithium ion batteries has effectively maxed out long ago: how do you come to that...

I have a question towards your claim that storage capacity of lithium ion batteries has effectively maxed out long ago: how do you come to that conclusion?

This report from the US department for energy says there’s been a steady increase in capacity over the last decade:

Here’s the report with a link to their source of information: https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1234-april-18-2022-volumetric-energy-density-lithium-ion-batteries

3BF2B530-34F9-4F0A-A849-ACBEB4DE4E44.jpeg?VersionId=rvC3t Y9iSA0YQ2JKguJLmix

Broseph wrote:
Power density by volume is an odd metric and seems applicable to consumer electronics only. Watt-hrs per kg would be a more helpful chart when discussing...

Power density by volume is an odd metric and seems applicable to consumer electronics only. Watt-hrs per kg would be a more helpful chart when discussing vehicles where volume isn’t really a limiting factor but weight is.

Why should the density of a battery pack change much? And if density stays the same it doesn’t matter if you look at capacity per volume or capacity per mass. 

OwenJakes
Posts
1705
Joined
6/30/2023
Location
sebree, KY US
8/7/2023 12:18pm
brocster wrote:
The percentage that can go flat out for 35 minutes is way less than 1%. Do you not watch MX and see all the guys in...

The percentage that can go flat out for 35 minutes is way less than 1%. Do you not watch MX and see all the guys in the fast 40 rolling around caused they are gassed, not the bike?  Yes they can smoke my ass just rolling around but the EGO trip of posters on this board is astounding thinking that battery life would change any of their current riding activity. 

OwenJakes wrote:
This confuses me. I use almost 3 gallons of gas on a well jetted 250 and usually ride for about 1.3-1.5 hours. Tell me how a...

This confuses me. I use almost 3 gallons of gas on a well jetted 250 and usually ride for about 1.3-1.5 hours. Tell me how a bike that is limited to 30 hardcore minutes of riding is not a changing my current riding situation? 

Never mind that it sounds like a pissed off cat.

The guy that killed a Varg battery in 25 minutes  in 95F weather could go through a FULL tank ( 1.7- 2 gallons) on a 450 in...

The guy that killed a Varg battery in 25 minutes  in 95F weather could go through a FULL tank ( 1.7- 2 gallons) on a 450 in a 30 minute moto.  Factory riders have runout of gas at Southwick multiple times as well as other tracks in 30 minutes or less.  

If You are able to ride at Pro level speed for that amount of time without stopping , then You would not fall into the group he was referring to. 

If You can ride for an Hour and a half on 3 gallons of gas You would likely fit into the 40ish minute  group of riders. And You could  do (2) 40 minute motos taking a single charging break. I do not mean this as an insult, I'm just basing what the riders in that " less than 1%" comment  can do on 3 gallons of gas.   They may get 45 to 50 minutes out of that 3 gallons on a 250 2 stroke.

I wasnt counting what was in the tank when I got there it's not meant to be scientific. Point is, the stark is offering 1.5 motos per full charge and I think that's not a great selling point. Most of the tracks I ride don't even have a bulldozer they own, so I'm not sure where this charging break is coming from because it isn't local infrastructure lol.

2
3
JM485
Posts
5795
Joined
10/1/2013
Location
Davis, CA US
8/7/2023 12:30pm
OwenJakes wrote:
This confuses me. I use almost 3 gallons of gas on a well jetted 250 and usually ride for about 1.3-1.5 hours. Tell me how a...

This confuses me. I use almost 3 gallons of gas on a well jetted 250 and usually ride for about 1.3-1.5 hours. Tell me how a bike that is limited to 30 hardcore minutes of riding is not a changing my current riding situation? 

Never mind that it sounds like a pissed off cat.

The guy that killed a Varg battery in 25 minutes  in 95F weather could go through a FULL tank ( 1.7- 2 gallons) on a 450 in...

The guy that killed a Varg battery in 25 minutes  in 95F weather could go through a FULL tank ( 1.7- 2 gallons) on a 450 in a 30 minute moto.  Factory riders have runout of gas at Southwick multiple times as well as other tracks in 30 minutes or less.  

If You are able to ride at Pro level speed for that amount of time without stopping , then You would not fall into the group he was referring to. 

If You can ride for an Hour and a half on 3 gallons of gas You would likely fit into the 40ish minute  group of riders. And You could  do (2) 40 minute motos taking a single charging break. I do not mean this as an insult, I'm just basing what the riders in that " less than 1%" comment  can do on 3 gallons of gas.   They may get 45 to 50 minutes out of that 3 gallons on a 250 2 stroke.

OwenJakes wrote:
I wasnt counting what was in the tank when I got there it's not meant to be scientific. Point is, the stark is offering 1.5 motos...

I wasnt counting what was in the tank when I got there it's not meant to be scientific. Point is, the stark is offering 1.5 motos per full charge and I think that's not a great selling point. Most of the tracks I ride don't even have a bulldozer they own, so I'm not sure where this charging break is coming from because it isn't local infrastructure lol.

Are you trying to see if you can just show up with a full charge and ride all day?

 

If you're riding MX you're going to have to bring a generator or hook up a battery bank in your truck/van, there's not getting around that.  

5
8/7/2023 1:03pm
OwenJakes wrote:
This confuses me. I use almost 3 gallons of gas on a well jetted 250 and usually ride for about 1.3-1.5 hours. Tell me how a...

This confuses me. I use almost 3 gallons of gas on a well jetted 250 and usually ride for about 1.3-1.5 hours. Tell me how a bike that is limited to 30 hardcore minutes of riding is not a changing my current riding situation? 

Never mind that it sounds like a pissed off cat.

The guy that killed a Varg battery in 25 minutes  in 95F weather could go through a FULL tank ( 1.7- 2 gallons) on a 450 in...

The guy that killed a Varg battery in 25 minutes  in 95F weather could go through a FULL tank ( 1.7- 2 gallons) on a 450 in a 30 minute moto.  Factory riders have runout of gas at Southwick multiple times as well as other tracks in 30 minutes or less.  

If You are able to ride at Pro level speed for that amount of time without stopping , then You would not fall into the group he was referring to. 

If You can ride for an Hour and a half on 3 gallons of gas You would likely fit into the 40ish minute  group of riders. And You could  do (2) 40 minute motos taking a single charging break. I do not mean this as an insult, I'm just basing what the riders in that " less than 1%" comment  can do on 3 gallons of gas.   They may get 45 to 50 minutes out of that 3 gallons on a 250 2 stroke.

OwenJakes wrote:
I wasnt counting what was in the tank when I got there it's not meant to be scientific. Point is, the stark is offering 1.5 motos...

I wasnt counting what was in the tank when I got there it's not meant to be scientific. Point is, the stark is offering 1.5 motos per full charge and I think that's not a great selling point. Most of the tracks I ride don't even have a bulldozer they own, so I'm not sure where this charging break is coming from because it isn't local infrastructure lol.

A generator to charge.  How many tracks have a gas station onsite ?  Why would anybody expect them to provide a way to charge?  For around the price of an aftermarket pipe You can buy a decent inverter style generator that will hum along at 60DB or less. Harbor Freight  has a couple under the price of a Full Ti system. Adding charging stations would cost less than a gas station and could also charge cars on off days.    

A lot of  people who have generators run electric pressure washers. And the ones who do not have a generator run gas powered pressure washers.  Replace the gas washer with electric and an inverter and the pits get less noisy  instead of louder. Many people at the local races around here already have a generator or gas pressure washer. So sound levels could still go down overall.

 

     Or just keep riding the gas bike.  Just like the 2 stroke VS 4 Stroke decision. The fastest, easiest to ride bike, may not be the bike for everybody. The runtime is not what they have been making the selling point. Electric has many other advantages over gas. And if those are not important to You   Keep riding Gas bikes. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy or ride a Varg.

6
4
Beagle
Posts
1767
Joined
8/3/2023
Location
Toulouse FR
8/7/2023 2:32pm

FFM (french federation) just authorized electric motorcycles to compete in elite supercross championship so expect to see some Vargs there quite soon (2 rounds done, 5 to go).

That will be great to assess the level of the bike in such a competitive environment. Also multiple riders from this SX championship already have experience or own a Varg, Josh Hill for instance, so wait and see...soon!

9
8/7/2023 5:03pm Edited Date/Time 8/7/2023 5:22pm
#434 wrote:
I have a question towards your claim that storage capacity of lithium ion batteries has effectively maxed out long ago: how do you come to that...

I have a question towards your claim that storage capacity of lithium ion batteries has effectively maxed out long ago: how do you come to that conclusion?

This report from the US department for energy says there’s been a steady increase in capacity over the last decade:

Here’s the report with a link to their source of information: https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1234-april-18-2022-volumetric-energy-density-lithium-ion-batteries

3BF2B530-34F9-4F0A-A849-ACBEB4DE4E44.jpeg?VersionId=rvC3t Y9iSA0YQ2JKguJLmix

Broseph wrote:
Power density by volume is an odd metric and seems applicable to consumer electronics only. Watt-hrs per kg would be a more helpful chart when discussing...

Power density by volume is an odd metric and seems applicable to consumer electronics only. Watt-hrs per kg would be a more helpful chart when discussing vehicles where volume isn’t really a limiting factor but weight is.

#434 wrote:
Why should the density of a battery pack change much? And if density stays the same it doesn’t matter if you look at capacity per volume...

Why should the density of a battery pack change much? And if density stays the same it doesn’t matter if you look at capacity per volume or capacity per mass. 

When Stark demoed the prototype Varg to journalists, it was using Molicel's 4200mAh cell, the production Varg uses Molicel's 4500mAh cell, the larger capacity cell does have higher volumetric and gravimetric density...

image-20230808095924-1

Volumetric and gravimetric density will increase with higher capacity cells.

1
OwenJakes
Posts
1705
Joined
6/30/2023
Location
sebree, KY US
8/7/2023 6:30pm
The guy that killed a Varg battery in 25 minutes  in 95F weather could go through a FULL tank ( 1.7- 2 gallons) on a 450 in...

The guy that killed a Varg battery in 25 minutes  in 95F weather could go through a FULL tank ( 1.7- 2 gallons) on a 450 in a 30 minute moto.  Factory riders have runout of gas at Southwick multiple times as well as other tracks in 30 minutes or less.  

If You are able to ride at Pro level speed for that amount of time without stopping , then You would not fall into the group he was referring to. 

If You can ride for an Hour and a half on 3 gallons of gas You would likely fit into the 40ish minute  group of riders. And You could  do (2) 40 minute motos taking a single charging break. I do not mean this as an insult, I'm just basing what the riders in that " less than 1%" comment  can do on 3 gallons of gas.   They may get 45 to 50 minutes out of that 3 gallons on a 250 2 stroke.

OwenJakes wrote:
I wasnt counting what was in the tank when I got there it's not meant to be scientific. Point is, the stark is offering 1.5 motos...

I wasnt counting what was in the tank when I got there it's not meant to be scientific. Point is, the stark is offering 1.5 motos per full charge and I think that's not a great selling point. Most of the tracks I ride don't even have a bulldozer they own, so I'm not sure where this charging break is coming from because it isn't local infrastructure lol.

A generator to charge.  How many tracks have a gas station onsite ?  Why would anybody expect them to provide a way to charge?  For around...

A generator to charge.  How many tracks have a gas station onsite ?  Why would anybody expect them to provide a way to charge?  For around the price of an aftermarket pipe You can buy a decent inverter style generator that will hum along at 60DB or less. Harbor Freight  has a couple under the price of a Full Ti system. Adding charging stations would cost less than a gas station and could also charge cars on off days.    

A lot of  people who have generators run electric pressure washers. And the ones who do not have a generator run gas powered pressure washers.  Replace the gas washer with electric and an inverter and the pits get less noisy  instead of louder. Many people at the local races around here already have a generator or gas pressure washer. So sound levels could still go down overall.

 

     Or just keep riding the gas bike.  Just like the 2 stroke VS 4 Stroke decision. The fastest, easiest to ride bike, may not be the bike for everybody. The runtime is not what they have been making the selling point. Electric has many other advantages over gas. And if those are not important to You   Keep riding Gas bikes. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy or ride a Varg.

Wont be long and you schmucks will be spending 50k just to ride 8 times a year. 

1
5
#434
Posts
1913
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
8/7/2023 10:35pm
Broseph wrote:
Power density by volume is an odd metric and seems applicable to consumer electronics only. Watt-hrs per kg would be a more helpful chart when discussing...

Power density by volume is an odd metric and seems applicable to consumer electronics only. Watt-hrs per kg would be a more helpful chart when discussing vehicles where volume isn’t really a limiting factor but weight is.

#434 wrote:
Why should the density of a battery pack change much? And if density stays the same it doesn’t matter if you look at capacity per volume...

Why should the density of a battery pack change much? And if density stays the same it doesn’t matter if you look at capacity per volume or capacity per mass. 

When Stark demoed the prototype Varg to journalists, it was using Molicel's 4200mAh cell, the production Varg uses Molicel's 4500mAh cell, the larger capacity cell does...

When Stark demoed the prototype Varg to journalists, it was using Molicel's 4200mAh cell, the production Varg uses Molicel's 4500mAh cell, the larger capacity cell does have higher volumetric and gravimetric density...

image-20230808095924-1

Volumetric and gravimetric density will increase with higher capacity cells.

Yeah, proofs my point. The 21700 cells Stark uses are the high discharge type, so that their able to pump out 80 HP. It would be possible to use 21700 high capacity cells with up to 5000 mAh for a big increase in range, but they would have to reduce the maximum power output of the bike. Maybe for an off-road model…

1
#434
Posts
1913
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
8/7/2023 10:43pm Edited Date/Time 8/7/2023 10:45pm
OwenJakes wrote:
I wasnt counting what was in the tank when I got there it's not meant to be scientific. Point is, the stark is offering 1.5 motos...

I wasnt counting what was in the tank when I got there it's not meant to be scientific. Point is, the stark is offering 1.5 motos per full charge and I think that's not a great selling point. Most of the tracks I ride don't even have a bulldozer they own, so I'm not sure where this charging break is coming from because it isn't local infrastructure lol.

A generator to charge.  How many tracks have a gas station onsite ?  Why would anybody expect them to provide a way to charge?  For around...

A generator to charge.  How many tracks have a gas station onsite ?  Why would anybody expect them to provide a way to charge?  For around the price of an aftermarket pipe You can buy a decent inverter style generator that will hum along at 60DB or less. Harbor Freight  has a couple under the price of a Full Ti system. Adding charging stations would cost less than a gas station and could also charge cars on off days.    

A lot of  people who have generators run electric pressure washers. And the ones who do not have a generator run gas powered pressure washers.  Replace the gas washer with electric and an inverter and the pits get less noisy  instead of louder. Many people at the local races around here already have a generator or gas pressure washer. So sound levels could still go down overall.

 

     Or just keep riding the gas bike.  Just like the 2 stroke VS 4 Stroke decision. The fastest, easiest to ride bike, may not be the bike for everybody. The runtime is not what they have been making the selling point. Electric has many other advantages over gas. And if those are not important to You   Keep riding Gas bikes. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy or ride a Varg.

OwenJakes wrote:

Wont be long and you schmucks will be spending 50k just to ride 8 times a year. 

Just like with every new technology. It starts in the high price segment and trickles down over time. You‘ll see guys charging their Stark bikes with their 100k electric F-150 soon, but in a few years prices will drop (and people will realize how cheap a maintenance free bike and truck are).

Look at a Model 3. The cost of buying and operating one for a few years has dropped to a point that it’s one of the cheapest middle class cars. 

11
8/7/2023 11:03pm
#434 wrote:
Why should the density of a battery pack change much? And if density stays the same it doesn’t matter if you look at capacity per volume...

Why should the density of a battery pack change much? And if density stays the same it doesn’t matter if you look at capacity per volume or capacity per mass. 

When Stark demoed the prototype Varg to journalists, it was using Molicel's 4200mAh cell, the production Varg uses Molicel's 4500mAh cell, the larger capacity cell does...

When Stark demoed the prototype Varg to journalists, it was using Molicel's 4200mAh cell, the production Varg uses Molicel's 4500mAh cell, the larger capacity cell does have higher volumetric and gravimetric density...

image-20230808095924-1

Volumetric and gravimetric density will increase with higher capacity cells.

#434 wrote:
Yeah, proofs my point. The 21700 cells Stark uses are the high discharge type, so that their able to pump out 80 HP. It would be...

Yeah, proofs my point. The 21700 cells Stark uses are the high discharge type, so that their able to pump out 80 HP. It would be possible to use 21700 high capacity cells with up to 5000 mAh for a big increase in range, but they would have to reduce the maximum power output of the bike. Maybe for an off-road model…

Stark could use a 5000mAh battery, but it would reduce maximum power from 80hp down to 35hp, which is less than a 250f

image-20230808160131-1

1
#434
Posts
1913
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
8/7/2023 11:43pm
When Stark demoed the prototype Varg to journalists, it was using Molicel's 4200mAh cell, the production Varg uses Molicel's 4500mAh cell, the larger capacity cell does...

When Stark demoed the prototype Varg to journalists, it was using Molicel's 4200mAh cell, the production Varg uses Molicel's 4500mAh cell, the larger capacity cell does have higher volumetric and gravimetric density...

image-20230808095924-1

Volumetric and gravimetric density will increase with higher capacity cells.

#434 wrote:
Yeah, proofs my point. The 21700 cells Stark uses are the high discharge type, so that their able to pump out 80 HP. It would be...

Yeah, proofs my point. The 21700 cells Stark uses are the high discharge type, so that their able to pump out 80 HP. It would be possible to use 21700 high capacity cells with up to 5000 mAh for a big increase in range, but they would have to reduce the maximum power output of the bike. Maybe for an off-road model…

Stark could use a 5000mAh battery, but it would reduce maximum power from 80hp down to 35hp, which is less than a 250f

Stark could use a 5000mAh battery, but it would reduce maximum power from 80hp down to 35hp, which is less than a 250f

image-20230808160131-1

Those cells have a higher puls rating. So a bike could have almost full power for a few seconds but less continuously. Wouldn’t be a problem for woods racing, but nothing for desert racing..

Bearuno
Posts
5278
Joined
6/28/2014
Location
AU
8/8/2023 4:00am
OwenJakes wrote:

Wont be long and you schmucks will be spending 50k just to ride 8 times a year. 

 I know a quite few blokes that spend that much (or more) for that level of riding.

Poor (well, obviously not in terms on having money) Bastards. 

2
OwenJakes
Posts
1705
Joined
6/30/2023
Location
sebree, KY US
8/8/2023 6:18am
A generator to charge.  How many tracks have a gas station onsite ?  Why would anybody expect them to provide a way to charge?  For around...

A generator to charge.  How many tracks have a gas station onsite ?  Why would anybody expect them to provide a way to charge?  For around the price of an aftermarket pipe You can buy a decent inverter style generator that will hum along at 60DB or less. Harbor Freight  has a couple under the price of a Full Ti system. Adding charging stations would cost less than a gas station and could also charge cars on off days.    

A lot of  people who have generators run electric pressure washers. And the ones who do not have a generator run gas powered pressure washers.  Replace the gas washer with electric and an inverter and the pits get less noisy  instead of louder. Many people at the local races around here already have a generator or gas pressure washer. So sound levels could still go down overall.

 

     Or just keep riding the gas bike.  Just like the 2 stroke VS 4 Stroke decision. The fastest, easiest to ride bike, may not be the bike for everybody. The runtime is not what they have been making the selling point. Electric has many other advantages over gas. And if those are not important to You   Keep riding Gas bikes. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy or ride a Varg.

OwenJakes wrote:

Wont be long and you schmucks will be spending 50k just to ride 8 times a year. 

#434 wrote:
Just like with every new technology. It starts in the high price segment and trickles down over time. You‘ll see guys charging their Stark bikes with...

Just like with every new technology. It starts in the high price segment and trickles down over time. You‘ll see guys charging their Stark bikes with their 100k electric F-150 soon, but in a few years prices will drop (and people will realize how cheap a maintenance free bike and truck are).

Look at a Model 3. The cost of buying and operating one for a few years has dropped to a point that it’s one of the cheapest middle class cars. 

You make up the most insane stuff. Maintenance on vehicles and bikes is maybe half engine related. Maybe in 400 years I'll recover the cost in an e-car in 10w30 savings and oil filters lol.

4
2
#434
Posts
1913
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
8/8/2023 6:37am
OwenJakes wrote:

Wont be long and you schmucks will be spending 50k just to ride 8 times a year. 

#434 wrote:
Just like with every new technology. It starts in the high price segment and trickles down over time. You‘ll see guys charging their Stark bikes with...

Just like with every new technology. It starts in the high price segment and trickles down over time. You‘ll see guys charging their Stark bikes with their 100k electric F-150 soon, but in a few years prices will drop (and people will realize how cheap a maintenance free bike and truck are).

Look at a Model 3. The cost of buying and operating one for a few years has dropped to a point that it’s one of the cheapest middle class cars. 

OwenJakes wrote:
You make up the most insane stuff. Maintenance on vehicles and bikes is maybe half engine related. Maybe in 400 years I'll recover the cost in...

You make up the most insane stuff. Maintenance on vehicles and bikes is maybe half engine related. Maybe in 400 years I'll recover the cost in an e-car in 10w30 savings and oil filters lol.

Yeah, I know… math is hard. 

1
4
reynardfan1
Posts
814
Joined
7/28/2014
Location
Gretna, NE US
8/8/2023 6:42am
 

Motocross Action magazine cover template - Made with PosterMyWall %281%29

 

Electric bike with an exhaust pipe? What did I miss?? 

djr
Posts
147
Joined
1/18/2015
Location
GB
8/8/2023 9:01am
#434 wrote:
Just like with every new technology. It starts in the high price segment and trickles down over time. You‘ll see guys charging their Stark bikes with...

Just like with every new technology. It starts in the high price segment and trickles down over time. You‘ll see guys charging their Stark bikes with their 100k electric F-150 soon, but in a few years prices will drop (and people will realize how cheap a maintenance free bike and truck are).

Look at a Model 3. The cost of buying and operating one for a few years has dropped to a point that it’s one of the cheapest middle class cars. 

" maintenance free" you say

So are you telling us that an electric bike never needs - tyres, chains,brake pads/discs, sprockets etc. ? 

The shock/forks will never need a rebuild  & will never leak ?

And of course the battery will never degrade ?

 

And the - e  F150 you mentioned, will never need a - tyre, shock absorber, gas for the AC, brake pads & discs, coolant for the battery management system, power steering fluid, brake fluid etc.

The electric windows, central locking, heater & air con,cruise control,lights, navigation & other gadgets will never wear or stop working.

And again , the battery will never degrade?

5
1
8/8/2023 9:21am
OwenJakes wrote:
I wasnt counting what was in the tank when I got there it's not meant to be scientific. Point is, the stark is offering 1.5 motos...

I wasnt counting what was in the tank when I got there it's not meant to be scientific. Point is, the stark is offering 1.5 motos per full charge and I think that's not a great selling point. Most of the tracks I ride don't even have a bulldozer they own, so I'm not sure where this charging break is coming from because it isn't local infrastructure lol.

A generator to charge.  How many tracks have a gas station onsite ?  Why would anybody expect them to provide a way to charge?  For around...

A generator to charge.  How many tracks have a gas station onsite ?  Why would anybody expect them to provide a way to charge?  For around the price of an aftermarket pipe You can buy a decent inverter style generator that will hum along at 60DB or less. Harbor Freight  has a couple under the price of a Full Ti system. Adding charging stations would cost less than a gas station and could also charge cars on off days.    

A lot of  people who have generators run electric pressure washers. And the ones who do not have a generator run gas powered pressure washers.  Replace the gas washer with electric and an inverter and the pits get less noisy  instead of louder. Many people at the local races around here already have a generator or gas pressure washer. So sound levels could still go down overall.

 

     Or just keep riding the gas bike.  Just like the 2 stroke VS 4 Stroke decision. The fastest, easiest to ride bike, may not be the bike for everybody. The runtime is not what they have been making the selling point. Electric has many other advantages over gas. And if those are not important to You   Keep riding Gas bikes. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy or ride a Varg.

OwenJakes wrote:

Wont be long and you schmucks will be spending 50k just to ride 8 times a year. 

A varg at full retail and generator is  around what You would spend on a KTM factory edition, full and set of Cone valves/matching shock ,setup for you.   After that point the Varg will cost less to ride. No air filters, clutch, engine maintenance and less gas. If You run race gas , You'll save a ton on gas and be able to build a private track if you have a few acres.

If You are the kind of rider who buys a NEW bike and keeps it for a few years, the Varg can cost less to own  especially if you ride a ton of hours. As long as the chassis holds up simerly to the current gas bikes. 

If You don't want to ride a Varg or whatever else comes out, Keep on ripping the YZ. But I really think you should try and ride one if you get the chance to and decide for yourself how it would fit you. 

1
4
OwenJakes
Posts
1705
Joined
6/30/2023
Location
sebree, KY US
8/8/2023 9:34am
A generator to charge.  How many tracks have a gas station onsite ?  Why would anybody expect them to provide a way to charge?  For around...

A generator to charge.  How many tracks have a gas station onsite ?  Why would anybody expect them to provide a way to charge?  For around the price of an aftermarket pipe You can buy a decent inverter style generator that will hum along at 60DB or less. Harbor Freight  has a couple under the price of a Full Ti system. Adding charging stations would cost less than a gas station and could also charge cars on off days.    

A lot of  people who have generators run electric pressure washers. And the ones who do not have a generator run gas powered pressure washers.  Replace the gas washer with electric and an inverter and the pits get less noisy  instead of louder. Many people at the local races around here already have a generator or gas pressure washer. So sound levels could still go down overall.

 

     Or just keep riding the gas bike.  Just like the 2 stroke VS 4 Stroke decision. The fastest, easiest to ride bike, may not be the bike for everybody. The runtime is not what they have been making the selling point. Electric has many other advantages over gas. And if those are not important to You   Keep riding Gas bikes. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy or ride a Varg.

OwenJakes wrote:

Wont be long and you schmucks will be spending 50k just to ride 8 times a year. 

A varg at full retail and generator is  around what You would spend on a KTM factory edition, full and set of Cone valves/matching shock ,setup...

A varg at full retail and generator is  around what You would spend on a KTM factory edition, full and set of Cone valves/matching shock ,setup for you.   After that point the Varg will cost less to ride. No air filters, clutch, engine maintenance and less gas. If You run race gas , You'll save a ton on gas and be able to build a private track if you have a few acres.

If You are the kind of rider who buys a NEW bike and keeps it for a few years, the Varg can cost less to own  especially if you ride a ton of hours. As long as the chassis holds up simerly to the current gas bikes. 

If You don't want to ride a Varg or whatever else comes out, Keep on ripping the YZ. But I really think you should try and ride one if you get the chance to and decide for yourself how it would fit you. 

This is what you're missing. You're trying to bridge the gap from one ridiculous thing to another. I would never buy any of that stuff you mentioned. 98% of riders wont either. Air filters are $20 and I've never "worn one out". I have never needed to replace a clutch. I just don't ride that way. Race gas is a waste of money. The only thing preventing me from owning my own track is the heavy equipment. A varg has nothing to do with that. 

If I do a top end every 30-35 hours we're looking at $5-6 per ride in maintenance over an E-Bike. Gas is not free and neither is electricity. That's a wash.

 

Dude, I hope it's the best motorcycle ever. I hope it makes me 5 seconds a lap faster. Truly. I just cant stand anyone thinking it is somehow apples to apples. This is a boutique, specialty motorcycle that comes with a ton of little caveats that any owner is going to have to accommodate. Stop saying it's cheaper in the long run or similar to own as a gas bike. It's not. It's double the price of nearly every current motorcycle except for a few new ones and it's going to be a pain in the balls to own and ride. I hope that the one moto you get to ride per trip on it is the best moto of your whole life though.

2
3
8/8/2023 10:02am
#434 wrote:
Just like with every new technology. It starts in the high price segment and trickles down over time. You‘ll see guys charging their Stark bikes with...

Just like with every new technology. It starts in the high price segment and trickles down over time. You‘ll see guys charging their Stark bikes with their 100k electric F-150 soon, but in a few years prices will drop (and people will realize how cheap a maintenance free bike and truck are).

Look at a Model 3. The cost of buying and operating one for a few years has dropped to a point that it’s one of the cheapest middle class cars. 

djr wrote:
" maintenance free" you say So are you telling us that an electric bike never needs - tyres, chains,brake pads/discs, sprockets etc. ?  The shock/forks will...

" maintenance free" you say

So are you telling us that an electric bike never needs - tyres, chains,brake pads/discs, sprockets etc. ? 

The shock/forks will never need a rebuild  & will never leak ?

And of course the battery will never degrade ?

 

And the - e  F150 you mentioned, will never need a - tyre, shock absorber, gas for the AC, brake pads & discs, coolant for the battery management system, power steering fluid, brake fluid etc.

The electric windows, central locking, heater & air con,cruise control,lights, navigation & other gadgets will never wear or stop working.

And again , the battery will never degrade?

He is referring to the lack of engine maintenance. No oil, oil filter,air filters, top ends,valves, clutches, transmissions.  All of those things will need to be done before You'll have to replace a battery nevermind a motor.  I think the cells used in the Varg  can be recharged 350-500 times.   Lets say its in the middle, 400 times would give you 200 -300 hours of ride time. 

How much time and money would it take to maintain a gas engine for that amount of hours? Nevermind one that can put out the power a Varg can. And would you pay a little more for a bike if You NEVER had to do any of those things?  Another Pro for the Varg, a worn out battery will not lock the motor up on the face of a jump like a worn-out gas bike can.     

I'm sure there will be some stuff the Varg can do well and not well, and it really just comes down to which bike will be more FUN to ride for you.  Almost everybody who rides, is doing it for fun. The Varg and other bikes like it will  allow people another option to have fun on.  

1
1
JM485
Posts
5795
Joined
10/1/2013
Location
Davis, CA US
8/8/2023 10:19am
OwenJakes wrote:
This is what you're missing. You're trying to bridge the gap from one ridiculous thing to another. I would never buy any of that stuff you...

This is what you're missing. You're trying to bridge the gap from one ridiculous thing to another. I would never buy any of that stuff you mentioned. 98% of riders wont either. Air filters are $20 and I've never "worn one out". I have never needed to replace a clutch. I just don't ride that way. Race gas is a waste of money. The only thing preventing me from owning my own track is the heavy equipment. A varg has nothing to do with that. 

If I do a top end every 30-35 hours we're looking at $5-6 per ride in maintenance over an E-Bike. Gas is not free and neither is electricity. That's a wash.

 

Dude, I hope it's the best motorcycle ever. I hope it makes me 5 seconds a lap faster. Truly. I just cant stand anyone thinking it is somehow apples to apples. This is a boutique, specialty motorcycle that comes with a ton of little caveats that any owner is going to have to accommodate. Stop saying it's cheaper in the long run or similar to own as a gas bike. It's not. It's double the price of nearly every current motorcycle except for a few new ones and it's going to be a pain in the balls to own and ride. I hope that the one moto you get to ride per trip on it is the best moto of your whole life though.

Honestly if you're having this much trouble understanding that generators exist and that this a viable option for a lot of people then electric probably isn't for you, there's a level of implied competence that the owner needs to possess and you might not meet that standard.  

5
7
djr
Posts
147
Joined
1/18/2015
Location
GB
8/8/2023 10:27am Edited Date/Time 8/8/2023 10:40am
He is referring to the lack of engine maintenance. No oil, oil filter,air filters, top ends,valves, clutches, transmissions.  All of those things will need to be...

He is referring to the lack of engine maintenance. No oil, oil filter,air filters, top ends,valves, clutches, transmissions.  All of those things will need to be done before You'll have to replace a battery nevermind a motor.  I think the cells used in the Varg  can be recharged 350-500 times.   Lets say its in the middle, 400 times would give you 200 -300 hours of ride time. 

How much time and money would it take to maintain a gas engine for that amount of hours? Nevermind one that can put out the power a Varg can. And would you pay a little more for a bike if You NEVER had to do any of those things?  Another Pro for the Varg, a worn out battery will not lock the motor up on the face of a jump like a worn-out gas bike can.     

I'm sure there will be some stuff the Varg can do well and not well, and it really just comes down to which bike will be more FUN to ride for you.  Almost everybody who rides, is doing it for fun. The Varg and other bikes like it will  allow people another option to have fun on.  

I am shocked that you are saying only 200-300 hours of riding till the battery can't be recharged anymore.

This is a $7500 battery, if I remember correctly ?

I ride 2 strokes, and there is no way that I have ever needed to spend $7500 on engine maintenance for 200-300 riding hours

So, if I am generous and say 300 hours riding at £7500 for the battery, that's a $25 per hour of riding to cover battery degradation .

3
OwenJakes
Posts
1705
Joined
6/30/2023
Location
sebree, KY US
8/8/2023 10:46am
OwenJakes wrote:
This is what you're missing. You're trying to bridge the gap from one ridiculous thing to another. I would never buy any of that stuff you...

This is what you're missing. You're trying to bridge the gap from one ridiculous thing to another. I would never buy any of that stuff you mentioned. 98% of riders wont either. Air filters are $20 and I've never "worn one out". I have never needed to replace a clutch. I just don't ride that way. Race gas is a waste of money. The only thing preventing me from owning my own track is the heavy equipment. A varg has nothing to do with that. 

If I do a top end every 30-35 hours we're looking at $5-6 per ride in maintenance over an E-Bike. Gas is not free and neither is electricity. That's a wash.

 

Dude, I hope it's the best motorcycle ever. I hope it makes me 5 seconds a lap faster. Truly. I just cant stand anyone thinking it is somehow apples to apples. This is a boutique, specialty motorcycle that comes with a ton of little caveats that any owner is going to have to accommodate. Stop saying it's cheaper in the long run or similar to own as a gas bike. It's not. It's double the price of nearly every current motorcycle except for a few new ones and it's going to be a pain in the balls to own and ride. I hope that the one moto you get to ride per trip on it is the best moto of your whole life though.

JM485 wrote:
Honestly if you're having this much trouble understanding that generators exist and that this a viable option for a lot of people then electric probably isn't...

Honestly if you're having this much trouble understanding that generators exist and that this a viable option for a lot of people then electric probably isn't for you, there's a level of implied competence that the owner needs to possess and you might not meet that standard.  

Well, the frames on my office wall disagree.

Ironically I think you're the one having trouble understanding. I guess read the post again? It's not hard having to conceptualize "buying a generator". Underhanded insults are super feminine.

4

Post a reply to: Stark Vargs (as in plural)

The Latest