Can we get a couple things straight?

j100
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j100 6/19/2011 6:53pm
6/19/2011 6:53pm
very few riders make the transition to the big class with success.

riding the big bike takes a different style and some don't fit that mold. it's weird that guys can ride a lights bike as fast as a big bike and then they get on the big bike and can't ride it as fast as they did a lights bike.

i can name rider after rider that rode for mitch, to factory suzuki, factory connection, ect... that never made it in the big class.

Bown, Sellers, Walker, Pingree, Bucklew, Bogard, Bentley, Goesslar, Smith, Reardon, Antunez, Pederson, ect...

all the riders i mentioned killed it in the lights class and were awesome riders. sucks they didn't make the jump.
machine
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machine 6/19/2011 8:03pm
6/19/2011 8:03pm
It's my understanding that a few years ago the AMA changed the points system so that it would force riders trying to make a career in the "lites" class to move up to the big boy class.

RC even talks about the 450 class as being the premier class and have heard him call it the "mans class" numerous times while commentating.


Sorry Regis, I have to go with RC on this one.
jemcee
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jemcee 6/19/2011 11:03pm
6/19/2011 11:03pm
Is it easier to win a 250 race than a 450 race (apart from the laps in sx)?
I would say no way (except for the laps in sx) especially if you're an older bloke... imagine trying to fight off those hyperactive, over energetic little shits who have zero respect for their elders and are too young to really have to work on their fitness and never struggle with hangovers.. shit give me the old boys anyday...

all kidding aside i'm with Regis on this
tobz
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tobz 6/19/2011 11:13pm
6/19/2011 11:13pm
Usually the guys that win and practically dominate that lites class struggle to make top 5 in the premier class, weimer, tedesco, are names that spring to mind. Guys that made the lites class look easy and that next leve above anyone else in their class looked out of sorts all of a sudden when they jump in the deep end of the pool of the 450's.

It's still a stepping stone, the skill and difficulty to make it in both classes are not interchangeable. The 450 class championships still seeml much harder to keep ontop of, ergo, the premier class.

My point of view, anyway.

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ando
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ando 6/20/2011 12:48am
6/20/2011 12:48am
machine wrote:
It's my understanding that a few years ago the AMA changed the points system so that it would force riders trying to make a career in...
It's my understanding that a few years ago the AMA changed the points system so that it would force riders trying to make a career in the "lites" class to move up to the big boy class.

RC even talks about the 450 class as being the premier class and have heard him call it the "mans class" numerous times while commentating.


Sorry Regis, I have to go with RC on this one.
You can't point-out in the 250 Nationals, that rule only applies to regional SX.
machine
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machine 6/20/2011 8:03am
6/20/2011 8:03am
Every sport/motorsport has a "premier class" whether it's NASCAR, Football, Baseball, F1 or Indy cars. It's good for the sport to have that, that's why they do it.

Do you remember just a few years ago when the 450 class was so boring and depleted that the 250's were being talked about as the premier class?

They have changed it for the better and have gotten the talent moved up to where it should be and now it's exciting again.

Regis is speaking from a riders viewpoint, not a fans perspective, which is fine and it makes sense coming from a former pro that he would be looking out for the riders who would not be able to make it in the 450 class and would then be forced to retire.

It's unfortunate, but a reality that some riders just can't make it when they move up to the big boy class. I as a fan want to see all the best talent in the "premier class". If all the riders stayed in the 250's, it wouldn't allow the young guys entering the sport to have a shot at the big time because all the rides would be occupied by the Rattrays and Hansens of the world. That is not fair to them IMO.
BobbyM
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BobbyM 6/20/2011 8:06am
6/20/2011 8:06am
Regis wrote:
The Lites outdoor class is not a feeder class. It never has been. So people who bag on riders who stay in the Lites class need...
The Lites outdoor class is not a feeder class. It never has been. So people who bag on riders who stay in the Lites class need to look at history as many of the sports top guys hung out in the class. Some years, in the past it has been the more competitive class and more difficult to get decent finishes.

The 125cc west and east regional SX was once a feeder class, an opportunity to get your feet wet in SX. Back in the late 80's and throughout the nineties, SX tracks were hard to come by and the class was used to get the hang of SX. Sometimes, Friday SX practice was the only time some 125 riders even rode a SX track all week. If you don't believe me, check out some early SX footage and watch the 125 class. A lot of people look like it was their first time riding a motorcycle.


Today, this is not the case anymore. Every kid coming up has been riding SX tracks since minis, the 250f bike is more the speed of the 250 2-strokes of the past. They should just acknowledge both as premiere classes. the oem's would still determine who rides where to get the results they want. They can still keep it a regional series.

The sport has grown IMO but some still have the mid 80's mentality
yer right..it never has been what it was intended to be. Smile

and reg, please don't compare the lites with the oldschool 125 ringadings...Wink
txmxer
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txmxer 6/20/2011 8:36am
6/20/2011 8:36am
Change up the SX program. Run qualifiers earlier. Run a 125SX class as a regional and make 250f and 450f class races 20 and 25 laps respectively.

That way we get more racing if we go to the races and want to see a longer show. But the night show is all about main events.

simple.
redalert144
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redalert144 6/20/2011 8:51am
6/20/2011 8:51am
txmxer wrote:
Change up the SX program. Run qualifiers earlier. Run a 125SX class as a regional and make 250f and 450f class races 20 and 25 laps...
Change up the SX program. Run qualifiers earlier. Run a 125SX class as a regional and make 250f and 450f class races 20 and 25 laps respectively.

That way we get more racing if we go to the races and want to see a longer show. But the night show is all about main events.

simple.
Was just about to write the same thing, haha. I think we need a 125cc regional series just like how it used to be where the privateer kids can learn the series. In the same instance I don't think it should be mandatory for the Justin Bogle's or any other blue chip prospect to run.

So IMO

450 needs to just be open to whatever size engine, 25 laps national series

250 is just 250 run the stroke you brung, 25 laps national series

125 regional series 15 laps

For the 125 class they could run the qualifiers in the morning or between 1 and 2 practices and then run the main just before opening ceremonies.
txmxer
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txmxer 6/20/2011 8:56am
6/20/2011 8:56am
txmxer wrote:
Change up the SX program. Run qualifiers earlier. Run a 125SX class as a regional and make 250f and 450f class races 20 and 25 laps...
Change up the SX program. Run qualifiers earlier. Run a 125SX class as a regional and make 250f and 450f class races 20 and 25 laps respectively.

That way we get more racing if we go to the races and want to see a longer show. But the night show is all about main events.

simple.
redalert144 wrote:
Was just about to write the same thing, haha. I think we need a 125cc regional series just like how it used to be where the...
Was just about to write the same thing, haha. I think we need a 125cc regional series just like how it used to be where the privateer kids can learn the series. In the same instance I don't think it should be mandatory for the Justin Bogle's or any other blue chip prospect to run.

So IMO

450 needs to just be open to whatever size engine, 25 laps national series

250 is just 250 run the stroke you brung, 25 laps national series

125 regional series 15 laps

For the 125 class they could run the qualifiers in the morning or between 1 and 2 practices and then run the main just before opening ceremonies.
something like that would work well. Feld can work out the details, but how cool would it be to actually get to watch a lot of racing when you pay your wad to go to an SX?

I started going to SX's back in the '90s and it was cool to be there during the day and get to watch practice and the qualifiers. Then, in the evening you watched Heats, Semis and Mains. Lots of riding and/or racing.

I chose not to go at all last year because I don't feel like I get my money's worth any more.
redalert144
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redalert144 6/20/2011 9:07am
6/20/2011 9:07am
txmxer wrote:
something like that would work well. Feld can work out the details, but how cool would it be to actually get to watch a lot of...
something like that would work well. Feld can work out the details, but how cool would it be to actually get to watch a lot of racing when you pay your wad to go to an SX?

I started going to SX's back in the '90s and it was cool to be there during the day and get to watch practice and the qualifiers. Then, in the evening you watched Heats, Semis and Mains. Lots of riding and/or racing.

I chose not to go at all last year because I don't feel like I get my money's worth any more.
Thats how I felt as well, it seems they are really cutting down on the racing but adding fluff keeping the overall night show the same length.

The 125 class should be really easy to do too, just being an amateur regional series, it doesn't need factory support in terms of having all five manufacturers involved. Like I said earlier, if the kid is that good coming out of Loretta's send him straight to the 250 class
JustMX
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JustMX 6/20/2011 9:46am
6/20/2011 9:46am
I knew it.

Gaston Rahier was a sandbagger!
flarider
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flarider 6/20/2011 10:22am
6/20/2011 10:22am
JustMX wrote:
I knew it.

Gaston Rahier was a sandbagger!
and Akira Watanabe
Spartacus
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Spartacus 6/20/2011 11:51am
6/20/2011 11:51am Edited Date/Time 6/20/2011 11:52am
sbarrington314 wrote:
wish we could either get over the 2 stroke 4 stroke BS and go back to calling it what it has evolved into (250 class and...
wish we could either get over the 2 stroke 4 stroke BS and go back to calling it what it has evolved into (250 class and 450 class) or simply call it mx1 and mx2.
Wife: What class is that?

Me: It's the 125 class, they ride 250's now.

Wife: WTF?
newmann
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newmann 6/20/2011 12:22pm
6/20/2011 12:22pm
Wow, lots of people seem to be requesting a 125 class.....

Or just half a dozen guys on Vital??? LMAO. Obviously it only took a half dozen for KTM to bring them back.
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JustMX 6/21/2011 5:38am
6/21/2011 5:38am
flarider wrote:
and Akira Watanabe
Dave said

"what a knobby"

....hehe
KAWboy14
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KAWboy14 6/21/2011 7:31am
6/21/2011 7:31am
the lites class is still a feeder to the big bikes.......half the people left after the 450's ran at freestone, we were like...."WT....?"
APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 6/21/2011 7:57am
6/21/2011 7:57am
The idea of the 125/250F/Lites class being a "feeder" series isn't a new concept. It's been more or less implied for as long as I can remember. Does it make sense? Maybe not but it's just been that way for what seems forever.

Remember when Yamaha moved Bob Hannah down to the 125 class? He seemed to take it as an insult because of the way the class was viewed at the time. Even the best 125 riders throughout the last several decades seemed to view the class as a stepping stone to the 250 and 500 classes. Glover, Ward, O'Mara, etc.

That viewpoint has sucked for some riders who were definitely better 125 riders, which was an art of it's own.

The 250F has changed some things, of course, but as long as the SX series is divided into regions, the MX series will have some of that "feeder" feeling rub off on it. Which is too bad because there are some riders out there who would be a lot more fun to watch racing the smaller bikes than they might be riding the bigger ones.

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txmxer
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txmxer 6/21/2011 8:15am
6/21/2011 8:15am
Everyone talks about growing the sport. If they want to grow the sport, they have to put more into it.

That's why I like the idea of a 125 support class. Let the 250f/450f classes run as national classes in both SX and MX.

A 125 support class will open the door to a lot of riders--local riders. Locals bring out friends and families and open the door to new fans in a ways that National riders cannot. JMO.
carlosmacho
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carlosmacho 6/21/2011 8:41am
6/21/2011 8:41am
redalert144 wrote:
Was just about to write the same thing, haha. I think we need a 125cc regional series just like how it used to be where the...
Was just about to write the same thing, haha. I think we need a 125cc regional series just like how it used to be where the privateer kids can learn the series. In the same instance I don't think it should be mandatory for the Justin Bogle's or any other blue chip prospect to run.

So IMO

450 needs to just be open to whatever size engine, 25 laps national series

250 is just 250 run the stroke you brung, 25 laps national series

125 regional series 15 laps

For the 125 class they could run the qualifiers in the morning or between 1 and 2 practices and then run the main just before opening ceremonies.
We use to have that, it was the 125, 250, Open.

The open class died as well as the bikes. In your example, the current 450 class would die and the 250 would become premier. Why would it do anything different than it did before. The idea that the original open 2 stroke class was demanding and hard so only the best would ride them, but the best riders rode the 250 two stroke class which became the premier class which 450 4 strokes could compete in.

Right now, riders have 2 choices, feeder class, or premier class, if you add a 3rd choice, the feeder class and the premier class (where it be 250f or 450f) will survive and the other will go away.
redalert144
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redalert144 6/21/2011 9:02am
6/21/2011 9:02am
carlosmacho wrote:
We use to have that, it was the 125, 250, Open. The open class died as well as the bikes. In your example, the current 450...
We use to have that, it was the 125, 250, Open.

The open class died as well as the bikes. In your example, the current 450 class would die and the 250 would become premier. Why would it do anything different than it did before. The idea that the original open 2 stroke class was demanding and hard so only the best would ride them, but the best riders rode the 250 two stroke class which became the premier class which 450 4 strokes could compete in.

Right now, riders have 2 choices, feeder class, or premier class, if you add a 3rd choice, the feeder class and the premier class (where it be 250f or 450f) will survive and the other will go away.
Why would it die?
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Sondy132001 6/21/2011 9:06am
6/21/2011 9:06am
KAWboy14 wrote:
the lites class is still a feeder to the big bikes.......half the people left after the 450's ran at freestone, we were like...."WT....?"
Half the people would have left after the 250 class silly if it was before the 450's. Why do you think DC swapped the motos ?? Because everyone, in all sports have that mentality "I'm going to beat traffic" and it makes no difference which class would have been last, people would have left before.

S
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jeffro503 6/21/2011 9:56am
6/21/2011 9:56am
This 3rd class thing will never work......even though I would love it. Reason why.....is all the racing is stuffed into one day now "Saturday".........if they tried to add another class like the 125 tiddler class.....it would make Saturday to long.......therefore having to split the race weekend into two race days again. I know it's "Possible" to do it........but the people that run the series won't do it....plain and simple. They changed it for their own reasoning.....and that was to save themselves money.....and give us less racing. Hence the timed practice sessions now , instead of the qualifiers.

I'd love to have the double day ( Saturday and Sunday ) nationals again.........but until the economy turns around......I wouldn't see it changing for us , unless it gets worse.
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wow123 6/21/2011 10:05am
6/21/2011 10:05am
MX Sports Medicine wrote:
I have always enjoyed watching the 125 class over the 250 and the 250F over the 450 Pig class. MX is about agility and body english...
I have always enjoyed watching the 125 class over the 250 and the 250F over the 450 Pig class.
MX is about agility and body english, not drag racing. I know this isn't totally inline with the subject here, but my 2 cents on the classes.
He knows !

The absolutely best riders in any class usually (used to be) are really really GREAT 125 riders.

It creates the best riders.

As this last generation of 125 riders end their careers
The sports standard will drop!

YES I called it.
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lopez130 6/21/2011 10:07am
6/21/2011 10:07am
jeffro503 wrote:
This 3rd class thing will never work......even though I would love it. Reason why.....is all the racing is stuffed into one day now "Saturday".........if they tried...
This 3rd class thing will never work......even though I would love it. Reason why.....is all the racing is stuffed into one day now "Saturday".........if they tried to add another class like the 125 tiddler class.....it would make Saturday to long.......therefore having to split the race weekend into two race days again. I know it's "Possible" to do it........but the people that run the series won't do it....plain and simple. They changed it for their own reasoning.....and that was to save themselves money.....and give us less racing. Hence the timed practice sessions now , instead of the qualifiers.

I'd love to have the double day ( Saturday and Sunday ) nationals again.........but until the economy turns around......I wouldn't see it changing for us , unless it gets worse.
Here's a thought... Have a 125 class on the Days the women don't race. The days they're not running WMX do a 125 Support Class or Schoolboy Class whatever they want to call it!
pie8man
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pie8man 6/21/2011 10:07am
6/21/2011 10:07am
Y'all need to look at this from the bottom side of the order instead of the top. What opportunity is there for an up and coming, non factory sponsored pro to get into the main event. Last I checked once you get your pro license you can show up at any MX or SX event on a125, 250, 2 or 4, or a 450 and attempt to qualify.
The 450 being called the premier class and 250's being called a feeder class is simply semantics. They are both top level professional racing series and everyone knows it. The 450 class here in the good ol USA is however the premier professional MX racing class. There is no rule I am aware of preventing a rider from skipping the 250 class and going straight to 450's.
I like the pointing out system, It keeps the premier class... well premier, by forcing the best riders to move up. I think they should treat the 450 class as an open bike class and let the 250's compete in it. They let 350's do it.
There is always arena cross.
Steven_Perry 6/21/2011 10:14am
6/21/2011 10:14am
Easy,450 sx 25 laps.250's 20 laps,bring in 125's 15 laps.Then I will feel I got my money's worth.
APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 6/21/2011 10:16am
6/21/2011 10:16am
pie8man wrote:
Y'all need to look at this from the bottom side of the order instead of the top. What opportunity is there for an up and coming...
Y'all need to look at this from the bottom side of the order instead of the top. What opportunity is there for an up and coming, non factory sponsored pro to get into the main event. Last I checked once you get your pro license you can show up at any MX or SX event on a125, 250, 2 or 4, or a 450 and attempt to qualify.
The 450 being called the premier class and 250's being called a feeder class is simply semantics. They are both top level professional racing series and everyone knows it. The 450 class here in the good ol USA is however the premier professional MX racing class. There is no rule I am aware of preventing a rider from skipping the 250 class and going straight to 450's.
I like the pointing out system, It keeps the premier class... well premier, by forcing the best riders to move up. I think they should treat the 450 class as an open bike class and let the 250's compete in it. They let 350's do it.
There is always arena cross.
I don't think you can just show up for a SX with a new pro license, I think you have to earn points in "qualification" races before you are allowed to attempt even the SX Lites class. Unless they have changed the rules yet again.....
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APLMAN99 6/21/2011 10:22am
6/21/2011 10:22am
Mstock wrote:
As long as the top 10 in the lites class are faster than the bottom 10 in the supercross class there is room for improvement in...
As long as the top 10 in the lites class are faster than the bottom 10 in the supercross class there is room for improvement in the current system. The regional concept was never designed for full on factory riders, teams, sponsors, and massive salaries. It was divided up geographically to provide pro/am's the chance to compete in the entire series. Those days are long, long, gone. To start racing supercross you go up against Mitch Payton and Team Pro Circuit. That is were you START. Good luck with that.

Drop the regional concept. Change the class name to 250 or MX2. Make it 20 lap main events. Make it a single 17 round series. And then justify to the average viewer on tv why the hell we have 2 classes that are both equal but not racing against each other while both classes have lappers. Yeah. Good luck with that.
I'm fairly confident that the top 10 NCAA basketball players are better than the bottom 10 NBA players, the top 10 AAA (and probably even AA) baseball players are probably better than the bottom 10 MLB players and so forth. That doesn't negate those being "feeder" leagues at all.
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pie8man 6/21/2011 10:26am
6/21/2011 10:26am
That's why I said once you get your pro license, I'm with you I do not know all the ins and outs of getting there. The point though is that with a little forethought and some AX and or other qualifying races under your belt you can show up and race a SX.

Post a reply to: Can we get a couple things straight?