tricks to fix the flame-out on 2009-2012 CRF450s

Edited Date/Time 10/1/2015 6:12am
I am looking to see if anyone as found any good tricks for reducing flame-out which is a pain in the ass on 2009-2012 CRF450's. I am looking for engine tricks that adress the actual cause rather than bandaids like a heavier flywheel or lower gearing.

By flame-out, I think I need to clarify what I am talking about as many beleive it it referes to different situations. I dont mean stalling at low speeds or when closing the throttle or when locking up the rear wheel or backfiring out the exhaust.

By flame-out, I mean when the engine quits when you crack open the throttle... it happens when you grab a handefull of throttle when the engine is at low rpm and the throttle plate is initially almost fully closed. From what I heard is that at low rpms with the throttle plate almost fully closed, the fuel gets to the spark a split second before the fuel, as well as the fuel being pulled i by the low pressure along the walls of the throttle body from the almost fully closed throttle plate, and the fuel blows ou the spark before the air can get there. It totally sucks when you are about to jump a big obstacle coming out of a slow tight turn and she just dies and leaves you there kicking the enginee over in a race.

The bike already had Tokyo Mods fuel and ignition mapping (did nothing to help this particular problem), FMF 4.1 slip-on, the HRC fuel injector trick, and one more tooth on the rear sprocket. I run the idle at 2000+ rpm.

This is what I have done so far to get more air to the combustion chamber faster;
1. removed the airfilter backfire screen
2. did the Dave Simon choke mod
3. rerouted the valve cover vent line from the airfilter box to an external filter so the engine only breathes fresh air
4. added a Moto Tassinari Air4orce air boot with the long velocity stack which should improve air speed at low rpm according to my discussion with the manufacturer

I heard a hotter spark plug would help, but a cant find a hotter one, only a cooler plug that fits the CRF450.

There is a few feet of snow on the ground so cant see how these mods improved the problem, but I wanted to see if any of you guys found any good solutions for this really annoying problem with this engine.

thanks,
mike
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CarlinoJoeVideo
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2/16/2014 4:48pm
I don't know anything about this problem first hand but what about running a bit higher idle? That might get you out of the flame out rpm range? Or just try running down a gear(2nd instead of 3rd or 3rd instead of 4th) in your problematic situation.
Paw Paw 271
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2/16/2014 5:15pm
I would suggest the use of a Rekluse clutch to stop the issue at hand. It works!
2/16/2014 5:41pm
Should have mentioned that I am already doing the obvious. I do run the idle at 2000+ rpm.

Been thinking about a Recluse but dont see how it would help the problem I mentioned. I tried to clarify I am not talking about stalling poking around at slow speed or when braking. I am talking about when I crack open the throttle which happens in gear as well as when sitting at the starting gate in neutral. Not sure how a rekluse woul help that.
FGR01
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2/17/2014 8:50pm
Hmmm, my 2012 seems more prone to the flame out when chopping the throttle suddenly entering a turn than it does when whicking the throttle open although I have experienced both.

I will say that the flame out when cracking the throttle definitely seems more prevalent when the bike is not completely warmed up. Probably due to the sensors/ECM adjusting the mixture richer. I have mine remapped by Sisneros and the flame out seems pretty minimized. Rarely ever happens. Getting your throttle hand to be more sensitive, combined with careful mapping, is probably is the best cure.

The Shop

2/18/2014 2:10pm
Already did the fuel injector mod and had remap done by Tokyo mods which had no effect on the problem I raise here.

Honda revised the injector position on the 2013 and 2014's based on what they learned from the race team on the 09-12's. The new position provides a straighter shot into the intake port.
moto314
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2/19/2014 7:49am
Never had the flame out issue with my 09, I remapped the fuel and ign, put on a piggy back fuel controller, installed a throttle body sleeve, and a newer (2012) fuel pump. I keep the idle low too, bike never cuts out. Sounds like your re-map may be the issue? How often do you change the fuel filter?
2/19/2014 8:17am
Bike is brand new.. bought as a left over and now has only 3.5 hours on it. I installed a splitstream tank filter right when I bought it. Funny how there are many who never had the issue and just as many who know exactly what I am talking about.
Paw Paw 271
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7/9/2014 1:04pm
Like I said previously. The problem will go away with the Rekluse EXP 3.0.
7/9/2014 1:52pm
Like I said previously. The problem will go away with the Rekluse EXP 3.0.
I disagree.. completely unrelated . I installed a Rekluse core EXP 3.0 and it did nothing at all for the flame outs. Please remember a flameout is when the engine dies when you are opening the throttle.. not when you have the throttle closed and lock up the brakes. completely unrelated.

mike
Paw Paw 271
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7/9/2014 6:45pm
I will say again......The Rekluse was the cure for me. Not one flame out after it was installed. Now I can charge the corners and not have to worry about what will happen when I crack the throttle.
The cam cure shown above can also do the same thing.
There is also another youtube video of another cure for the flame out as well.
7/9/2014 8:23pm
I will say again......The Rekluse was the cure for me. Not one flame out after it was installed. Now I can charge the corners and not...
I will say again......The Rekluse was the cure for me. Not one flame out after it was installed. Now I can charge the corners and not have to worry about what will happen when I crack the throttle.
The cam cure shown above can also do the same thing.
There is also another youtube video of another cure for the flame out as well.
I envy you PawPaw.. I can make it flame out right there on the stand and tried everything..3 different fuel maps, Injectioneering mod, Simmons mod, race fuel. Actually, on the bike stand I can make it happen the easiest.

Chris' mod is also a good reason to throw in a Hot Cams cam.

mike
DTHA70
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7/10/2014 10:36am
you need dyno time and a custom tune. every bike is different and no two should have the same exact map. a good dyno tune for a base map and then fitting an auto tune system so you can hit the button when the weather changes or you ride at different altitudes and it self adjusts back to the perfect tune for adjusted altitude.
Paw Paw 271
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7/10/2014 11:07am Edited Date/Time 7/10/2014 11:08am
From what you are telling me from you running it on a stand, I would suspect a very lean condition right when you crack the throttle. You said it was remapped, so it may just be set up to lean just off idle. Another idea would to be have the injector checked.
7/10/2014 9:07pm
From what you are telling me from you running it on a stand, I would suspect a very lean condition right when you crack the throttle...
From what you are telling me from you running it on a stand, I would suspect a very lean condition right when you crack the throttle. You said it was remapped, so it may just be set up to lean just off idle. Another idea would to be have the injector checked.
Did it with the stock map, did it with the two different Tokyo Mods maps.. 3 different maps had no effect on the flame out issue.. better or worse. I think the cause is not the mapping. In the old days, I had ridden bikes with badly tuned carbs and they didn't "flame out". I am betting on the compression release theory at this point.
mxr746
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7/22/2014 3:54pm
From what you are telling me from you running it on a stand, I would suspect a very lean condition right when you crack the throttle...
From what you are telling me from you running it on a stand, I would suspect a very lean condition right when you crack the throttle. You said it was remapped, so it may just be set up to lean just off idle. Another idea would to be have the injector checked.
Did it with the stock map, did it with the two different Tokyo Mods maps.. 3 different maps had no effect on the flame out issue...
Did it with the stock map, did it with the two different Tokyo Mods maps.. 3 different maps had no effect on the flame out issue.. better or worse. I think the cause is not the mapping. In the old days, I had ridden bikes with badly tuned carbs and they didn't "flame out". I am betting on the compression release theory at this point.
Have you have the chance to try the decomp spring idea? Its such a light weight spring as is, Im wondering how much difference it can make? I had a flame out as the revs we climbing out of a turn yesterday, I would have thought that the decompressor weight would be slung out for sure in that case. Maybe a fluke stall. I dunno. Shimming up soon so I guess trying the spring cant hurt. Would be great if it was that easy.
7/22/2014 4:12pm
I haven't tried it yet but plan to. Make sure you watch the video that was posted.. it is very helpful.

mike
The Rock
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7/22/2014 6:26pm
I envy you PawPaw.. I can make it flame out right there on the stand and tried everything..3 different fuel maps, Injectioneering mod, Simmons mod, race...
I envy you PawPaw.. I can make it flame out right there on the stand and tried everything..3 different fuel maps, Injectioneering mod, Simmons mod, race fuel. Actually, on the bike stand I can make it happen the easiest.

Chris' mod is also a good reason to throw in a Hot Cams cam.

mike
You should just be happy you still aren't waiting for your throttle body back from Injectioneering like the guy has been up in Canada for over two years.........
7/22/2014 6:49pm
I hope he isn't still actually waiting. Smile I got my throttle body back quickly and he followed up. The mod helped the motor pick up from lower in the rpm band and in a linear way. No impact on the flame outs.
mxr746
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7/23/2014 5:37am
The R&D throttle would be fun to try too, but $$$$,. will a bike start with a missing or useless decomp spring, no more flame outs ever if that really is the cause..ha ha
UpAllNight
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7/23/2014 12:51pm
mxr746 wrote:
The R&D throttle would be fun to try too, but $$$$,. will a bike start with a missing or useless decomp spring, no more flame outs...
The R&D throttle would be fun to try too, but $$$$,. will a bike start with a missing or useless decomp spring, no more flame outs ever if that really is the cause..ha ha
I assume it would be possible to start it but it will be very hard to kick over and could maybe cause problems with the kick mechanism as it would put a huge amount of stress on it. I would avoid removing the spring all together personally.
Matt Fisher
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7/23/2014 1:50pm
mxr746 wrote:
The R&D throttle would be fun to try too, but $$$$,. will a bike start with a missing or useless decomp spring, no more flame outs...
The R&D throttle would be fun to try too, but $$$$,. will a bike start with a missing or useless decomp spring, no more flame outs ever if that really is the cause..ha ha
UpAllNight wrote:
I assume it would be possible to start it but it will be very hard to kick over and could maybe cause problems with the kick...
I assume it would be possible to start it but it will be very hard to kick over and could maybe cause problems with the kick mechanism as it would put a huge amount of stress on it. I would avoid removing the spring all together personally.
Actually that would be a very effective way to determine if the decomp is the flame out issue.

Remove assembly, start bike (push start if you're worried about the kick shaft). If the flame out is gone, then you know what caused it. Reassemble with a modified decomp and you should be good to go.
FGR01
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7/23/2014 4:09pm
Time to put manual decomp on these bikes like the original YZ400F's !

Just kidding. That sucked.
UpAllNight
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7/23/2014 7:38pm
FGR01 wrote:
Time to put manual decomp on these bikes like the original YZ400F's !

Just kidding. That sucked.
Its funny you say that. My brother seems to think it would be better overall to have a manual lever again. I assume it would provide a lighter rotating assembly at the very minimum right?
Paw Paw 271
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8/4/2014 8:38pm Edited Date/Time 8/4/2014 8:39pm
Ok, I have come across a Honda service bulletin that address the flameout issue on the EFI engines. The fix is to adjust the TPS reading at idle from .7 to.8 volts. This sends a signal to slightly richen the fuel mixture and seems to cure the flameout issue. Remember that the higher the voltage reading the richer the fuel mixture will become and you can go too far.

Paw Paw
mxr746
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8/5/2014 10:27am
Ok, I have come across a Honda service bulletin that address the flameout issue on the EFI engines. The fix is to adjust the TPS reading...
Ok, I have come across a Honda service bulletin that address the flameout issue on the EFI engines. The fix is to adjust the TPS reading at idle from .7 to.8 volts. This sends a signal to slightly richen the fuel mixture and seems to cure the flameout issue. Remember that the higher the voltage reading the richer the fuel mixture will become and you can go too far.

Paw Paw
very interesting thanks Paw Paw!

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