Titanium Heads Up

dogger315
Posts
309
Joined
11/22/2010
Location
CA US
4/8/2015 12:09pm Edited Date/Time 4/30/2015 8:45am
Recently I started running low on Titanium bolts from my stash so I shopped around to find some replacements.
I bought bolts from Race Tech, Pro Bolt, Mettec, Race Bolts and from a vendor on Ebay. Prices from everybody
except Ebay were in the same range. Unfortunately, the quality isn't. I have had three bolt failures in the last
couple of weeks. One was a 6mm clutch cover bolt that snapped off while removing it. The second bolt was a
replacement for the first and snapped while tightening to 5 lb/ft. I replaced it with another brand with no problem.
The third bolt was an 8mm pinch bolt on the fork lug that failed while torquing it to 15 lb/ft. When the first bolt
failed, I chalked it up as a fluke. When the brand new 2nd bolt failed, I new I had a quality control problem with
the same source - the Ebay vendor. The third bolt was just icing on the cake

Since the third bolt failed, i have removed any other bolts on my bikes that came from this source. They went
straight into the recycle bin as I don't consider them safe to use. I'm not saying that all of his bolts are bad, just
enough for me to lose confidence in using any of them. I have not contacted this vendor because truthfully, I
don't know what he could say or do to restore my confidence. I'm just walking away, lesson learned.

I'm writing this as a simple heads up for anybody else using these bolts.

Here's a picture I took of the pinch bolt I removed from my fork lug. I was tightening it with a SnapOn digital electronic
torque wrench that was calibrated less than 6 months ago. I treated the bolt with Ti prep and while I was torquing it,
the value started going down instead of up. i stopped and removed the bolt to find this:



The bolt next to it is the same size.

dogger
|
4/8/2015 12:19pm
Damn...

Where were they made, and was it listed how they were made, rolled or cut threads, heat treated, forged heads etc ?
4/8/2015 4:53pm
Dogger, In your opinion, who sells the best quality ti at a decent price? I recently had great success with race tech and pro bolt and both where excellent to deal with. I really like the "race spec" bolts probolt offers
Tuck812
Posts
319
Joined
12/11/2013
Location
Fallon, NV US
4/8/2015 9:19pm
@dogger315 thanks for the heads up I was about to order some fork pinch bolts who do you recommend ?
JBernard_401
Posts
1320
Joined
10/29/2013
Location
Boulder, CO US
4/8/2015 10:02pm
Tuck812 wrote:
@dogger315 thanks for the heads up I was about to order some fork pinch bolts who do you recommend ?
i have a lot of race tech stuff on my bike.
Josh is awesome to deal with, give him a call and tell him i recommended them.

http://racetechtitanium.com/

The Shop

dogger315
Posts
309
Joined
11/22/2010
Location
CA US
4/9/2015 8:08am
Damn...

Where were they made, and was it listed how they were made, rolled or cut threads, heat treated, forged heads etc ?
From his listing on EBay, they are made in the US from grade 5 Titanium with rolled threads. Grade 5 is the same as all the
others use (6AL-4V), and all the others roll the threads as well. I believe the difference is what is done after the bolt is
formed. The other brands heat treat the bolts to increase hardness and bring them up to the 120,000 to 180,000 psi range.
Some of the other brands like Mettec use forged heads for even more strength. This explains the difference in cost, the
other brands cost more to make. The other brands also guarantee at least the equivalent of a SAE grade 5 bolt, the same
as the OE bolts.

An 8mm bolt that stretches at less than 15 lbft of torque is in the same strength range as an Aluminum bolt and not something
you want retaining your forks or brakes, IMO.

As far as the other brands, I think they are all good. I use and recommend Mettec for all the specialty bolts like seat, steering
damper, linkage, axles, etc. I like Race Tech for their DLC coated Ti brake caliper pins and some of the big engine mounting
bolts. And I like Pro Bolt for most of the rest. You really can't go wrong between any of the three. One thing I will mention
when shopping prices, Mettec offers a racers discount of 10% if you call in your order, so take that into account when doing
comparisons.

dogger
4/9/2015 9:43am
I thought even 90% of the chinese bolts were heat treated and forged, that's nasty... Don't think you'll ever get it stronger than an 8.8 steel bolt, as the material loads/stresses differently, we use it to cut the weight down and keep the parts dimensions equal, in aviation they'll use twice the mass to get a part that's equal in weight to steel, but much stronger and larger... We sort of use it backwards for mx.

I heard rumours that a few of the better companies you've mentioned source their bolts from china and finish/Polish them in house, how true that is i don't know.
markit
Posts
2638
Joined
1/10/2013
Location
Bogalusa, LA US
4/9/2015 1:15pm
E bay the wal mart of the enternet.
dogger315
Posts
309
Joined
11/22/2010
Location
CA US
4/10/2015 1:29pm
I thought even 90% of the chinese bolts were heat treated and forged, that's nasty... Don't think you'll ever get it stronger than an 8.8 steel...
I thought even 90% of the chinese bolts were heat treated and forged, that's nasty... Don't think you'll ever get it stronger than an 8.8 steel bolt, as the material loads/stresses differently, we use it to cut the weight down and keep the parts dimensions equal, in aviation they'll use twice the mass to get a part that's equal in weight to steel, but much stronger and larger... We sort of use it backwards for mx.

I heard rumours that a few of the better companies you've mentioned source their bolts from china and finish/Polish them in house, how true that is i don't know.
Ti can be juiced up to 10.9 (SAE grade 8 or 150,000 psi). The footpeg bracket, linkage and axle bolts meet that standard and
you pay dearly for them. Not sure if anything stronger is possible.

Don't know about the rumors, Pro Bolt claims made in house in the UK, Mettec claims made in house in the USA. Don't know
about Race Tech.

Agree about EBay being the walmart of the internet, markit - maybe even the dollar store.

Charley, those two bolts were from my 09, had more on my 500. All have been removed and scrapped with replacements on
order. Luckily I didn't buy that many, about twenty 6 and 8mm flanged hex heads all together.

dogger
4/17/2015 7:55pm
Who was the source on ebay for the Ti bolts you got? I bought a few pieces recently from a source on ebay that came from China, and was curious if it was the same source.
dogger315
Posts
309
Joined
11/22/2010
Location
CA US
4/20/2015 1:45pm
Who was the source on ebay for the Ti bolts you got? I bought a few pieces recently from a source on ebay that came from...
Who was the source on ebay for the Ti bolts you got? I bought a few pieces recently from a source on ebay that came from China, and was curious if it was the same source.
Magnum MX is the EBay vendor.

dogger
JBernard_401
Posts
1320
Joined
10/29/2013
Location
Boulder, CO US
4/20/2015 5:23pm
dogger315 wrote:
Magnum MX is the EBay vendor.

dogger
seriously?!
i was pretty sure he machines all his stuff in house. could be wrong. i have top and bottom shock bolts, and a handfull of m8's for trees and lugs laying around.

have you asked him wtf is going on? how can a bolt stretch that bad with that few ft lbs? an alum bolt wouldnt even do that.

dogger315
Posts
309
Joined
11/22/2010
Location
CA US
4/20/2015 6:16pm
seriously?! i was pretty sure he machines all his stuff in house. could be wrong. i have top and bottom shock bolts, and a handfull of...
seriously?!
i was pretty sure he machines all his stuff in house. could be wrong. i have top and bottom shock bolts, and a handfull of m8's for trees and lugs laying around.

have you asked him wtf is going on? how can a bolt stretch that bad with that few ft lbs? an alum bolt wouldnt even do that.

He told me he machines everything in house, that's why I didn't bother to call. What can he tell me to reinstill my confidence
in his product. I took all those bolts off of both of my hybrids and donated them to the local recycler. You're right about the
stretch though, I have Aluminum bolts stronger than that.

I think you'll agree, suspect bolts have no business clamping anything important.

Just a guess, but I suspect the problem is in the heat treatment or more specifically, lack of it.

dogger
4/21/2015 6:35am
The purer grades are softer, grade 5 (ti6al4v) is an alloy blend of roughly 6% alloy and 4% vanadium, hence the ti6al4v, and along with a couple of other alloy/ti hybrids has a better yield and shear strength than the pure grades, so more appropriate.

Those bolts the op posted look chinese made to me, if he makes them in the states he should have material certs etc and shouldn't be hard to trace it's origin, as said before, i've heard a few rumours of vendors stating made/finished in house, which translates into bought in and polished/cleaned up in house.

Either way, i can't remember seeing a Chinese one stretch so easily...
JBernard_401
Posts
1320
Joined
10/29/2013
Location
Boulder, CO US
4/24/2015 11:39pm
Have you tried any Ti fasteners from ebay seller zjwhsd? I have some M8 nuts and some M8x40 and M8x50 Ti Fasteners from him and they...
Have you tried any Ti fasteners from ebay seller zjwhsd? I have some M8 nuts and some M8x40 and M8x50 Ti Fasteners from him and they look good. Just have not used them yet.

Here's a few of the items:
http://m.ebay.com/itm/111644475266
http://m.ebay.com/itm/111644475294
those are super expensive for that price. thats easily at the same price level as RaceTech Titanium bolts. and lesser quality.
4/25/2015 6:32pm Edited Date/Time 4/25/2015 6:35pm
Thanks Dogger.. I bought most of my Ti from Kevin at Mettec. I also have a few pieces from Race Tech and Pro Bolt and I bought 2 pieces from Magnum Mx/Ebay that the others didn't have. No failures on those parts yet, but he kept sending me the wrong parts repeatedly so I avoid dealing with him now. That is scary if it is that weak. You have saved a life. Ti is not really that strong anyway relative to good old steel.

I get my aluminum bolts from Pro Bolt, but mostly from Ian at IRP who is great to deal with and a top level machinist.

Here is a sneak peak of my latest winter Honda project. Need to do a write up soon. I have the RCS Ti shock spring on it that I asked you about.

Any new ride reports on your CR250AF project?

mike




4/25/2015 7:05pm
Thanks Dogger.. I bought most of my Ti from Kevin at Mettec. I also have a few pieces from Race Tech and Pro Bolt and I...
Thanks Dogger.. I bought most of my Ti from Kevin at Mettec. I also have a few pieces from Race Tech and Pro Bolt and I bought 2 pieces from Magnum Mx/Ebay that the others didn't have. No failures on those parts yet, but he kept sending me the wrong parts repeatedly so I avoid dealing with him now. That is scary if it is that weak. You have saved a life. Ti is not really that strong anyway relative to good old steel.

I get my aluminum bolts from Pro Bolt, but mostly from Ian at IRP who is great to deal with and a top level machinist.

Here is a sneak peak of my latest winter Honda project. Need to do a write up soon. I have the RCS Ti shock spring on it that I asked you about.

Any new ride reports on your CR250AF project?

mike




Where did u get the wheel spacer in the 1st pic?
4/25/2015 7:53pm
That is from IRP that I mentioned in my post, but he doesn't sell them in black, just natural, red, and blue, so I had it anodized black.
dogger315
Posts
309
Joined
11/22/2010
Location
CA US
4/28/2015 9:39am
Thanks Dogger.. I bought most of my Ti from Kevin at Mettec. I also have a few pieces from Race Tech and Pro Bolt and I...
Thanks Dogger.. I bought most of my Ti from Kevin at Mettec. I also have a few pieces from Race Tech and Pro Bolt and I bought 2 pieces from Magnum Mx/Ebay that the others didn't have. No failures on those parts yet, but he kept sending me the wrong parts repeatedly so I avoid dealing with him now. That is scary if it is that weak. You have saved a life. Ti is not really that strong anyway relative to good old steel.

I get my aluminum bolts from Pro Bolt, but mostly from Ian at IRP who is great to deal with and a top level machinist.

Here is a sneak peak of my latest winter Honda project. Need to do a write up soon. I have the RCS Ti shock spring on it that I asked you about.

Any new ride reports on your CR250AF project?

mike




Looks like you're in good shape, TT. All the sources you cited are good ones, IMO.
That anodized IRP spacer looks pretty trick, so is that a TCR hub?

My new 250 is getting the full "monty". I've got the engine jetting baseline nailed down
and I'm done experimenting with fuel and oil combinations (VP MRX02 and Redline at
32:1). Also have a good baseline for my shock and spring, I settled on a 5.3kg/m.

I've done some laps and intentionally over jumped obstacles to check frame weld strength
and integrity. I NDIed the welds with penetrant and a black light - no problems. I just like to
make sure everything is safe before I wring it out. Next up will be the forks and offsets.

dogger
jhansen510
Posts
2392
Joined
2/10/2009
Location
GREENFIELD, MN US
Fantasy
3559th
4/28/2015 12:50pm
Dogger what skill level of rider would you consider yourself to be? Not trying to stir shit up. I am truly curious. Would love to see a top level guy like Barcia wring the piss out of that bike of yours!
4/28/2015 3:11pm
Hi Dogger,

Yes, they are TCR hubs but they are the specially machined lightweight version that TCR makes (made?) for the Geico Honda team.

I was wondering why you guys looked past the custom CNC fork lugs to focus on the axle spacer Smile

My build is lots of money and luck (re. the works parts I received).. your build is pure creative talent and skill. Your bikes are true works bikes built at home with the extensive testing you are doing. I am doing some testing and part swapping, and some of the fancy expensive parts will come back off because of personal feel like the Think Technologies seat, and the Yoshimura Titanium exhaust, but you really are going much further. How many offsets will you test?.. buying several sets of triple clamps are expensive unless you have the adjustable kind. You must like the building as much as the riding since there is a trade-off there.

mike
dogger315
Posts
309
Joined
11/22/2010
Location
CA US
4/29/2015 8:13am
jhansen510 wrote:
Dogger what skill level of rider would you consider yourself to be? Not trying to stir shit up. I am truly curious. Would love to see...
Dogger what skill level of rider would you consider yourself to be? Not trying to stir shit up. I am truly curious. Would love to see a top level guy like Barcia wring the piss out of that bike of yours!
I stopped racing almost two years ago because my Left knee crapped out (I'm up for a replacement this Summer). Before that
I raced vet A. I don't know if I'll ever be able to race MX again after the partial knee replacement, just have to wait and see how
things go after rehab. In the meantime, I'm doing driving schools to earn a racing license so I can compete in IMSA Porsche
Cup racing. I'm addicted to the adrenaline (ex fighter pilot). Racing cars still gets me the rush but without as much wear and
tear on the body.

I am doing the initial testing on this bike as I described in my previous post, but when it comes down to putting in the hot laps
to sort out the suspension, I'm going to pass that off to somebody that can squeeze a lot more out of the bike than I can right
now. Once this bike is dialed in, I fully plan to turn it over to somebody that can push it to the limit. I'm not thinking a current
rider, more like a recent retiree that raced and won on two strokes.

Mike, I didn't mention the lugs because i just assumed you got your hands on a set of works Showas from your HRC
connection. Very cool about the hubs, i thought they looked wittled down a bit. The standard TCRs are already lighter than
the OE Honda cast pieces, so how much more were they able to save? Do you have a goal for the final weight of your bike?

I have a set of adjustable triples that will yield something like 6 different offsets. Once I land on a winner, I'll have a set
machined with that offset based on the PC design. I like a bike that turns in just by thinking about it so the trick is to get that
super sharp handling without blowing past the steering dampner's ability to limit headshake. The other problem with the
CRF250R frame is the short wheelbase. I found out about this the hard way from my CR500. I already put a CRF450R
swingarm on it and will probably run the adjusters way back. I'm hoping that will be enough. Lots to sort out, but you're right,
I DO like the building as much as the riding - maybe a bit more since the building doesn't require as much ice and pain pills.
BTW, agree with you about the Think seat foam, feels like I'm sitting on a board - Ebay time.

dogger

4/29/2015 9:00pm
I am an adrenlaine junky, too. I also have a race car that parked right next to the 4 MX bikes in the Garage. I did the race care to try and stay away from MX, but MX is the greatest adrenaline fix. I was going to try an F18 fighter, but it wouldn't fit in the garage Wink

Those lugs arent works Showa. They are from Europe and cooler. There are a lot of cool parts in Europe, some made by machine shops for the factory teams, but you have to find them, get past the language barrier, and get them to sell to you and perhaps do a bank transfer of funds since they dont take credit cards. The new HSL rear holeshot link being sold by MB1 suspension was actually designed and is machined by a guy in Belgium. I have been unsucessful in getting CRM in Italy to build me a carbon fiber subframe though.. I have been trying since last year. He is making them for the production Husky's now, but will only sell to factory's/ factory teams. As for TCR, Troy said the ligher than stock Honda claim was incorrect in the MXA article and nothing is lighter and stronger than a stock Honda hub unless you whittle them down. I didnt get a chance to weigh just the hubs and weighed the complete wheels using the lightest DID aftermarket rims (stock Honda DID rims are actually lighter than the LT-X). I used the base Dirtstar rim on the recommendation of Troy and I talked to DID about the weights. The front LT-X is .11 lbs lighter than the base Dirtstar, but the base Dirtstar is slightly lighter on the rear rim compared to the LT-X. I went for the lighter rear since the spinning wheel because even heavier. In the end, I had a front wheel set that is .8 lbs heavier than stock, but a rear that was 1.3 pounds ligher for an overall saving of .5 pounds. Troy sold me the Geico hubs because I had been waiting for 6 months for hubs to fit my bike and had a Geico set left over. If you have a Honda, wheels are not the place to try and save weight. Including the Think seat, I was able to take 13 lbs of the CRF450 so that it is a little lighter than my CR250 2T at 225 lbs wet weight (half tank of gas). The stock CRF450 is 238lbs and the stock CR250 is 226lbs. With the Think seat replaced with a stock one, they are the same weight. The Think seat really was effective/ cost effective at removing weight, and feels soft when you push your finger into it, but I dont like the feel under my butt. At my age, I need to baby my back coming out of corners with acceleration bumps and the Think seat foam makes it painful. I will keep my Think seat just for kicks and giggles when I hand it to friends to see how light it is.

mike
dogger315
Posts
309
Joined
11/22/2010
Location
CA US
4/30/2015 7:22am
Very interesting about the hub weights. I wanted to go with a pair of straight up Dirt Stars on this bike, but there was some
miscommunications with the order and I ended up with the LT-Xs. Since I have had good luck with those on my 500, i
decided to keep them. Troy must have been slammed with orders for you to have to wait so long, guess it worked out in
the end because you got a tricker set of hubs.

I know what you mean about the shops in Europe. There's quite a cottage industry for designing and producing very cool
parts for anything that moves. I found a shop in Germany that reversed engineered some tranny gears I sent them and
reproduced them out of Titanium. They did the same for some HRC wrist pins only those were made with Chrome Moly.
I found another shop that popped replacement body panels for a race car project that were originally fiberglass out of
carbotanium.

You've done an outstanding job of shedding weight off your CRF. I don't think most folks appreciate how much better a
light weight bike is. Should be one sweet ride.

Sounds like you need a bigger garage, but don't fill it with junk like a Hornet, too slow and no legs. Find a "D" model
Tomcat - easily cracks Mach 2 even with a payload.

dogger
1
4/30/2015 8:41am
I was looking for the lightest parts and here is the rim weight chart I put together (in lbs);

Wheels DID Dirtstar LT-X Delta ST-X Excel A60
front- 3.7 3.59 0.11 3.73
rear- 4.19 4.22 -0.03 4.39

I actually wanted the LT-X rims but ended up with the regular Dirtstars. The problem that Troy ran into on the hubs was that he didnt have any red rear hubs for the older Hondas left and was waiting months for them to be made, he just had the rear hub with the different sprocket offset for the 2013 and later Hondas. He decided he couldn't keep me waiting any longer as he knew I really wanted his hubs for the lighter weight.

I keep telling the wife that if we move, the house will have to have a bigger garage for my toys.
4/30/2015 8:45am
Chart didnt come out so well when I submited.. Try again.

Wheels, DID Original, LT-X, Delta, ST-X, Excel A60
front-, 3.7, 3.59, 0.11, 3.73
rear-, 4.19, 4.22, -0.03, 4.39

Post a reply to: Titanium Heads Up

The Latest