Help please! Racing tomorrow and my 2016 KTM 350 SX-F is dying

Edited Date/Time 4/9/2016 5:59pm
So my bike has been a dog to start from the day I bought it. I'm running VP U4E (I love in Colorado and we can't get the normal U4.4) with stock motor, pipe and air filter/cage and it's never started right away from a cold start. I live at 10,000ft and race at 5,500 ft and it doesn't like cold starting at either altitude.

Given that it's EFI I thought that it automatically adjusted for altitude and I didn't have to do anything like I used to reject my two-strokes for air temp and altitude (this is my first 4-stroke). I also called VP and they said I didn't need to do anything to run the U4E race gas. In any event, something's not right so I did some digging and thought adjusting the TPS voltage could be something to easily try. I measured the output voltage at 0.65v (right in the expected stock range I think) so I turned it up to 0.72v. I honestly have very little idea of what I’m doing other than seeing a load of stuff on the net saying most bikes benefit from turning it up to trick the ECU that you’re a bit more twisted on the throttle than you actually are.

So I cold start the bike with the new 0.72v TPS output voltage and it seemed to start a little easier (on the 4th try with the choke button pushed in – air temp was about 50F). I wanted to test throttle response so after warming it up for a minute I rolled the throttle on and it picks up well, but then when I crack the throttle hard from idle it dies (see video).

I’m obviously going to put the TPS output voltage back to 0.65 since the bike didn’t do this before I changed the voltage, but is there anything else I could try to make this bike start better? Would it be worth going the other way and leaning the TPS out a bit by dropping to, say 0.60v or lower? Is the altitude messing with it? Is my gas messing with it? Was I misinformed by the VP guys? If this was a two-stroke I’d be able to jet it for my temp, altitude and track conditions but this 4-stroke has me totally stumped. For example, I can’t even work out how to get the spark plug out to have a look at whether the cold start issue is too much or not enough fuel and the manual is totally useless.

Any ideas greatly appreciated!

Oh, and I’m racing tomorrow so it’d be great to fix this today Smile

Cheers
Simon
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CarlinoJoeVideo
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3/12/2016 12:44pm
I've never messed with the TPS on my bike but I've had bogging issues and lose of power because the little cone fuel filter located in the fuel line was clogged. Could be worth checking that?
3/12/2016 1:17pm Edited Date/Time 3/12/2016 1:18pm
Thanks! I already pulled that filter out and there was a little bit of dirt inside which I sprayed out with carb cleaner and put back together. Didn't make a noticeable difference.

Cheers
Simon
Crush
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3/12/2016 2:01pm Edited Date/Time 3/12/2016 2:01pm
Bad injectors? Corroded connections upfront or in airbox electrics?
quicken
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3/12/2016 4:17pm
I would put the tps back to the spec setting.

If it was a cold start issue, I would try unplugging the temp sender if it's handy. That should default the ecu to a richer setting and may help you initial cold start up. Although this is a little backwards for a high altitude scenario, it's an easy thing to try for a test to see if it needs more fuel or not.

Good luck....tonight and tomorrow as well.

The Shop

JoJmoto
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3/12/2016 5:15pm
no rag in airbox? its happened..
3/12/2016 5:54pm
Yeah no rag in the airbox I'm afraid. I put the TPS back to 0.65 stock setting and I'll run it like that for the race tomorrow. I did notice, however, that if you crack the throttle hard even with the stock TPS setting the engine dies. I must have never done that before, and I've never noticed a bog or hesitation while riding it. There also no corrosion anywhere and the contacts all look good.

I'll mess with the temp sender after tomorrow when I have a bit more time to tool around with it. It may be that I just take it back to the dealer and say fix your shitty bike.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Cheers
Simon
motosicko
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3/12/2016 7:25pm
Thunder Valley or bust! My wife and I will be there racing. Checked in today and track looked good.
Wish I could help. Only if it were a Honda. Plenty of KaTooM's will be there to help if you need. Bet a re-map would make it better.
bf884
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3/13/2016 8:00am
What about trying a hotter spark plug? I may be way off here but just a thought. I was always told go with a hotter plug on race gas
yak651
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3/13/2016 10:19am
What's your idle like? On my '13 350 it was hard to start until I turned the idle up, then started much easier. Maybe try posting at ktmtalk
3/14/2016 9:49am
motosicko wrote:
Thunder Valley or bust! My wife and I will be there racing. Checked in today and track looked good. Wish I could help. Only if it...
Thunder Valley or bust! My wife and I will be there racing. Checked in today and track looked good.
Wish I could help. Only if it were a Honda. Plenty of KaTooM's will be there to help if you need. Bet a re-map would make it better.
Good day yesterday, eh? Windy was a bit crazy in the morning though. I went 1-3 for 2nd OA in 40+B and, even better, my bike started!! Ha ha!

Cheers
Simon
3/14/2016 9:52am
Idle is normal, I guess - meaning it doesn't seem excessively fast or slow, but I'll increase it a bit and see if that helps with the starting.

When I'm done messing with the idle and temp sender I'll look into the hotter plug idea.

Thanks again for all the ideas!

Cheers
Simon
motosicko
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3/14/2016 2:10pm
motosicko wrote:
Thunder Valley or bust! My wife and I will be there racing. Checked in today and track looked good. Wish I could help. Only if it...
Thunder Valley or bust! My wife and I will be there racing. Checked in today and track looked good.
Wish I could help. Only if it were a Honda. Plenty of KaTooM's will be there to help if you need. Bet a re-map would make it better.
Good day yesterday, eh? Windy was a bit crazy in the morning though. I went 1-3 for 2nd OA in 40+B and, even better, my bike...
Good day yesterday, eh? Windy was a bit crazy in the morning though. I went 1-3 for 2nd OA in 40+B and, even better, my bike started!! Ha ha!

Cheers
Simon
Good job, tough class. Maybe if I can get some speed back I'll try doing some 40A races this year and be gating on same moto with you. I raced in the 50+ with my wife who also races 40C and has been keeping up with me lately. I'll look you up at Wild Rat in a few weeks so we can meet.
Nick #64 Honda
Moto3731
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3/14/2016 3:23pm
I don't care what vp says you need a remap. I've owned a fi bike from ktm the past two years and run race gas. The bike will continue to do that until it's remapped. The u4 burns slower so it causes the engine to flame out with quick blips of the throttle. Call Justin at Tokyo mods tell him Kyle sent you and he'll get you sorted out for like 89 bucks and he ships it back to you same day.
3/14/2016 5:11pm
Moto3731 wrote:
I don't care what vp says you need a remap. I've owned a fi bike from ktm the past two years and run race gas. The...
I don't care what vp says you need a remap. I've owned a fi bike from ktm the past two years and run race gas. The bike will continue to do that until it's remapped. The u4 burns slower so it causes the engine to flame out with quick blips of the throttle. Call Justin at Tokyo mods tell him Kyle sent you and he'll get you sorted out for like 89 bucks and he ships it back to you same day.
Thanks! Nice to have experience from someone in my position. I might add a slip-on so I'll get the remap when I've done that and see if it fixes it.

Cheers
Simon
3/14/2016 5:14pm Edited Date/Time 3/14/2016 5:15pm
motosicko wrote:
Good job, tough class. Maybe if I can get some speed back I'll try doing some 40A races this year and be gating on same moto...
Good job, tough class. Maybe if I can get some speed back I'll try doing some 40A races this year and be gating on same moto with you. I raced in the 50+ with my wife who also races 40C and has been keeping up with me lately. I'll look you up at Wild Rat in a few weeks so we can meet.
Nick #64 Honda
Nice one! I doubt I'll race Wild Rat, but I'll be at Thunder Valley again this Sunday for the SRAC race.

Cheers
Simon #375
motosicko
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3/15/2016 10:24am
motosicko wrote:
Good job, tough class. Maybe if I can get some speed back I'll try doing some 40A races this year and be gating on same moto...
Good job, tough class. Maybe if I can get some speed back I'll try doing some 40A races this year and be gating on same moto with you. I raced in the 50+ with my wife who also races 40C and has been keeping up with me lately. I'll look you up at Wild Rat in a few weeks so we can meet.
Nick #64 Honda
Nice one! I doubt I'll race Wild Rat, but I'll be at Thunder Valley again this Sunday for the SRAC race.

Cheers
Simon #375
3/15/2016 11:03am
Amy more websites of guys you know who were snapping pics? It was my first race, still trying to figure out who all the regular photographers are. Thanks.
motosicko
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3/15/2016 12:08pm
Amy more websites of guys you know who were snapping pics? It was my first race, still trying to figure out who all the regular photographers...
Amy more websites of guys you know who were snapping pics? It was my first race, still trying to figure out who all the regular photographers are. Thanks.
3/15/2016 1:29pm Edited Date/Time 3/15/2016 1:41pm
motosicko wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2016/03/15/128117/s1200_BV6A8975_X3.jpg[/img] Saw this pic. http://www.7twophotography.com/Lakewood-CO-RMXA-Round-1/i-TbPQCh8/A
Thanks! Yeah that's me - after my tip over in the second moto cos my handguard's twisted down. I took a wide line around the corner before the big tunnel jump and the front of my bike disappeared down a bog hole created by some rather exuberant watering. Got up around 9th and clawed back to 3rd. So much fun, shame the motos aren't a bit longer.

Cheers
Simon
motosicko
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3/15/2016 1:53pm Edited Date/Time 3/15/2016 1:56pm
motosicko wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2016/03/15/128117/s1200_BV6A8975_X3.jpg[/img] Saw this pic. http://www.7twophotography.com/Lakewood-CO-RMXA-Round-1/i-TbPQCh8/A
Thanks! Yeah that's me - after my tip over in the second moto cos my handguard's twisted down. I took a wide line around the corner...
Thanks! Yeah that's me - after my tip over in the second moto cos my handguard's twisted down. I took a wide line around the corner before the big tunnel jump and the front of my bike disappeared down a bog hole created by some rather exuberant watering. Got up around 9th and clawed back to 3rd. So much fun, shame the motos aren't a bit longer.

Cheers
Simon
There's a better one of you airing it out on that other link from TylerJ

Yea, second motos, 3 laps, I'm barely warmed up.
4/7/2016 6:35am
In case anyone's interested, I tried increasing the idle speed and went back to pump gas but it still wouldn't like to cold start. Last weekend's race at Wild Rat I was on the gate for my final moto with the card sideways, bike in gear and throttle at about 2/3 for a couple of seconds when there were five loud backfires and the bike dies. Since I'd never seen a four-stroke seize I had no idea what had happened but everyone who saw it said almost certainly that it had seized. I was gutted.

Anyhow, there's a happy ending to this story. It wasn't seized. There was a KTM recall last week on the capacitor (condenser?) bracket which caused the capacitor to fail. My dealership, Motobreck, replaced bracket and capacitor under warranty and it was back running in a day. Now, the interesting thing is it has no problem starting from cold on the button, which is great of course. The bike also wouldn't pull a second gear start even going down a tooth on the front and rear, so it'll be interesting to see if it now has more power under starting load.

Cheers
Simon
B-EVANS
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4/9/2016 5:59pm
I set my last 450 and my new one's TPS to .6v. Both run very good at that with no decel pop and easy starting.

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