Cutting out at WOT

JW381
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Harrisburg, OR US
Edited Date/Time 5/5/2014 4:05pm
Had my first bogging issues today.

2004 CR250 w/ 2000 CR kehin carb. 45 pilot, blue jd needle 3rd clip, 178 main. Temps were mid 80's today (record for Oregon), elevation about 500'. Bel-ray H1R @ 32:1 with 50/50 110 leaded Sunoco and 93 premium non-ethanol.

Things were fine first practice but I needed some more spunk so I moved the A/S from about 1 1/4 turn out to 1 3/4 out. Throttle response was better, but they had put a good amount of sand on the track, so in the sand at WOT it was falling flat and not really revving out. Before I could raise the clip or go down on the main, I ran into problems.

Thank God I was tired and was about to take a breather lap when I pulled up to the biggest jump on the track because my bike completely cut out and almost bogged to the point of dying. I pulled off, still couldn't' get it to rev out. This was after about 5 laps, so it was up to temp. I shut it off for about a minute then it seemed to come back to life. Went out for the next practice after giving it a little check over, and while it didn't completely cut away, it was still a little boggy in the deeper stuff.

So this weekend I'm gonna clean the carb, check the reeds, pull the exhaust and check for bad signs thru the exhaust port and pull the head if I have to. I think I was just too rich for the higher temps and the deeper sections, but I've never had this bike completely cut away like that. Any suggestions? Oh, also gonna check the RC butterfly for cable tension and full opening.
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Jakes Dad
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Brooksville, FL US
5/1/2014 6:08am
I'm betting it was fat, here's a tool I use to help me with jetting. http://www.pilotfriend.com/calcs/calculators/density.htm

You'll need to know elevation where you're at, and go to weather .com for current conditions air temp, barometer, and dew point are what is needed for the above calculations. Just plug those into the app at this website.

Oh and definitely look at the plug to confirm. Always a good idea to check compression once in awhile a tired motor will start to go fat also.
JW381
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Harrisburg, OR US
5/2/2014 12:04am
I always try to run richer rather than leaner which is why I assumed it was running fat. I'm gonna do a few checks on Saturday. Any other ideas? I'll do a comp check, hopefully I don't end up having to do a top end.
Jakes Dad
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Brooksville, FL US
5/2/2014 2:36pm
I have one of those laser temp readers, whenever I change to go leaner I get a little nervous so I pull out the temp gauge and stop him after a couple hard laps and check it.

Something else to check is the squish, a wider squish can get you in trouble with detonation. Tighter squish with higher msv keeps the heat out from around the edge of the piston. It forces the hot gases back into the middle of the chamber for a better burn. Essentially a proper squish provides a cooling ring affect in the cylinder.
Socket946
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2019
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8/25/2013
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AZ US
5/2/2014 4:23pm
what's the top end time line on the CR250 J dub? 50 hours or so on OEM, or?

The Shop

JW381
Posts
10642
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Location
Harrisburg, OR US
5/2/2014 8:40pm
Socket946 wrote:
what's the top end time line on the CR250 J dub? 50 hours or so on OEM, or?
I don't have an hour meter so I'd just be guessing. I did the top end about a year ago, I don't ride regularly either. I'd guess about 40 hours of actual run time, but could be even less. Waiting for some jetting specs to try then gonna tear into it tomorrow.
JW381
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Harrisburg, OR US
5/4/2014 2:18pm
For sure I have an older one but don't trust it, gonna rent one from an auto shop. Shooting for 180-215?
JW381
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5/4/2014 2:21pm
Also, remembered that I put a 42 pilot on a little while back. I have to assume that my sudden lean condition came from the filter falling off. That's why it was sudden and pronounced. Because it's usually always rich and blubbery, and the 42 pilot yielded better throttle respone.

Can someone try to clarify the relationship between the A/S and pilot jet, as well as the pilot and main jets compared to clip position? So for example I lean the air screw and turn the idle down? And if I raise the clip, should I run bigger main and pilots if necessary?
Socket946
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AZ US
5/4/2014 7:37pm
JW381 wrote:
Also, remembered that I put a 42 pilot on a little while back. I have to assume that my sudden lean condition came from the filter...
Also, remembered that I put a 42 pilot on a little while back. I have to assume that my sudden lean condition came from the filter falling off. That's why it was sudden and pronounced. Because it's usually always rich and blubbery, and the 42 pilot yielded better throttle respone.

Can someone try to clarify the relationship between the A/S and pilot jet, as well as the pilot and main jets compared to clip position? So for example I lean the air screw and turn the idle down? And if I raise the clip, should I run bigger main and pilots if necessary?
Please don't quote me, as I don't have experience. This is what I lifted from Thumper talk about adjusting the air screw.


On my air screw I generally run between 1.5 and 1.75 turns out. You can easily adjust the air screw though with the bike running. Just start turning it in until the engine rpm begins to increase. Shut the bike off, and then count how many turns it takes to turn the screw all the way in. Now with the screw all the way in, turn it back out to at least 1.5 turns out, start the bike, and then start turning the screw OUT further until the engine starts to stumble, or the RPM's drop. Shut the engine off. Now count the turns it takes to seat the screw all the way in. Now, if you take the first measurement, and the last measurement, optimally you should put the screw right in between the 2 numbers. For example, if you the first test gave you 1 turn out. The second test gave you 2.5 turns out, you split that to get 1.75 turns out. Now, put the air screw at 1.75 turns out and ride the bike. You can go 1/8th turn either direction for further fine tuning, but that initial 1.75 will get you in the neighbor hood.

When tuning, if you find the sweet spot that your bike runs best at-if you find that you are 1 turn out or less on the air screw then your pilot jet is too small. If you find that you are 3 turns out or more, then your pilot is too large. If your pilot is sized correctly for your bike you should be able to set the screw between 1 & 2.5 turns out for optimal running. The air screw will basically help you determine if your pilot is sized correctly. All tests listed above need to be done with the bike at full operating condition, with the choke off, and with a clean air filter, with fresh gas, & the gas needs to be mixed at the same ratio that you will be riding with. Keep all aspects of testing at a constant if possible.
JW381
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5/4/2014 9:43pm
Thanks for that!
5/5/2014 8:01am Edited Date/Time 5/5/2014 8:07am
Your float setting is off, it's closing too soon. Sandy tracks make for longer WOT situations which drain your bowl faster. You won't notice it at a hard pack track if it is off, but on a Sandy track, or a track with large uphill runs, it'll run out of fuel.

forget all the bullshit about how many millimeters your floats should be set at.

pull off your carb. pull the floatbowl off. put a 14-14inch piece of hose on the fuel orifice. with one hand, hold the carb level, and now make certain that you hold the floats so that the seam on the floats is perfectly 100% parallel with the bottom of the carb body.

hook up that piece of fuel hose. now blow into it. when the seam on the side of the black float (toward the top) is 100% parallel you should not be able to blow into it at all. its sealed off. when you drop the float downward toward the ground just a hair, about 1mm, you will be able to blow. moving it back up 1mm, it will cut you off and you wont be able to blow.

that's a properly calibrated float. ignore hard settings like "15mm" because over the years, float tangs get bent into funny shapes, and float needle valves come from different buildings in china, so a hard setting like "15mm" means jack shit.
Socket946
Posts
2019
Joined
8/25/2013
Location
AZ US
5/5/2014 4:05pm
Your float setting is off, it's closing too soon. Sandy tracks make for longer WOT situations which drain your bowl faster. You won't notice it at...
Your float setting is off, it's closing too soon. Sandy tracks make for longer WOT situations which drain your bowl faster. You won't notice it at a hard pack track if it is off, but on a Sandy track, or a track with large uphill runs, it'll run out of fuel.

forget all the bullshit about how many millimeters your floats should be set at.

pull off your carb. pull the floatbowl off. put a 14-14inch piece of hose on the fuel orifice. with one hand, hold the carb level, and now make certain that you hold the floats so that the seam on the floats is perfectly 100% parallel with the bottom of the carb body.

hook up that piece of fuel hose. now blow into it. when the seam on the side of the black float (toward the top) is 100% parallel you should not be able to blow into it at all. its sealed off. when you drop the float downward toward the ground just a hair, about 1mm, you will be able to blow. moving it back up 1mm, it will cut you off and you wont be able to blow.

that's a properly calibrated float. ignore hard settings like "15mm" because over the years, float tangs get bent into funny shapes, and float needle valves come from different buildings in china, so a hard setting like "15mm" means jack shit.
Didn't read the thread, did you?

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