AHRMA RULES PROPOSALS 2017 -KX Ultima

motojason
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Edited Date/Time 10/1/2016 8:24am


DEADLINE IS APPROACHING!!!

As some of you may know the AHRMA 2017 Rule Change Proposals were reviewed at the July 18th Board meeting. The results are now posted. (links below)

If you are an AHRMA member with an opinion on the proposed change, please contact the Board Members who were against the proposal and let your opinion be known.


The proposal to include Non-Power valve (no KIPS) KXs with OEM front disk brakes and rear drum brakes in their respective Ultima displacement classes was resubmitted for 2017. Post vintage Ultima rule sections 12.3.2-4.

The Rules Committee voted in favor, but the Board vote was 7-5, against in the preliminary vote.

https://www.ahrma.org/uncategorized/2017-rules-proposals/

http://ahrma.org/ahrma_pdfs/Z-2016/Forms/17_Preliminary_rules_web.pdf


The final vote on 2017rules proposals takes place at the Board Meeting on October 10th 2017, in Alabama.

Board Members AGAINST:
Debbie Poole: pooleschl1@hotmail.com

Rob Poole: robpoole57@hotmail.com

Kelly Shane: flynpenguin@gmail.com

Pat Riley: rileyppkk@yahoo.com

Corky Root: peroot66@yahoo.com

Mark Hatten: mhatten@ahrma.org

Tom Bentley:bentley13x@yahoo.com

Board Members FOR:
Fred Guidi: fredguidi@gmail.com

Carl Anderson: carl849gp@yahoo.com

Kevin Burns: 68.kburns@gmail.com

Luke Conner: luke.conner@cpl-systems.com

Louis LeBlanc: louisleblanc18n@me.com


David Lamberth handles communications for the National office directed to the board he and Fred Guidi should be CC'd on board member communication.

dlamberth@ahrma.org

Be sure to include your AHRMA membership number in all communications regarding rules proposal comments.
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mxrose3
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10/3/2016 12:51pm
I really hope they get this rule passed this time around. They bent the rules when they allowed the 82'-84' powervalved YZ's in the Ultima class, why can't they bend the rules a little for the 82'-84' KX disc brake owners?
motojason
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10/3/2016 1:01pm
Yes, as you noted there are already model specific technology "allowances" for certain models. But I would not even call it bending the rules. If an 83 Kawasaki, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, KTM, Maico, etc. could race eachother in 1983 why can't they now? AHRMA's stated objective is to preserve history, not rewrite it!
MXM
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10/3/2016 2:15pm
motojason wrote:
Yes, as you noted there are already model specific technology "allowances" for certain models. But I would not even call it bending the rules. If an...
Yes, as you noted there are already model specific technology "allowances" for certain models. But I would not even call it bending the rules. If an 83 Kawasaki, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, KTM, Maico, etc. could race eachother in 1983 why can't they now? AHRMA's stated objective is to preserve history, not rewrite it!
I do not post on many threads, but this is one of my passions. When I pulled up to the line in 1983 on my disc brake KX 125 not a single person said anything, because it was the new bike offered that year by Kawasaki no big deal. In my opinion all vintage rules should be around years of build and have nothing to do with tech, if it was stock that year then it races no more discussion.

I think anybody who disagrees with that simple way of thinking is a fool and should never be allowed to vote on rules for everybody else. Vintage is to preserve history, period. If you don't like the fact a certain bike has different tech than your favorite color that year then too bad, either buy that color or live with it; We all did in 1983 and we should today.

Also everybody should read our thread "last chance 1980's Jerseys" and get a early 80's Kawasaki Jersey before we stop selling them and AHRMA tries to rule them out.



motojason
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10/3/2016 3:03pm
MXM is that you in the pic? Badass! I will definately be ordering a jersey. Want one of the Sinisalo designs so I can pretend to be like Ward! Love my 83 KXs.

The Shop

731chopper
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10/3/2016 3:13pm
I'll be racing my first AHRMA race next month at Rio Bravo. I got into vintage a year ago and have raced a few races here in Texas at TVRC races (which is a great group of people). I've wanted to do a few AHRMA races so I've read up on some of the events, some of the rules and a lot of the bs that goes along with it.

My old man raced Diamond Dons earlier this year as his first AHRMA race and his second just yesterday in Tulsa. Based on what I've read and heard, this issue is such a great parallel to what's going on in general. My dad said racing an AHRMA race is like racing a motocross race sanctioned by the federal government. Is it not comical how they decide what bikes are and are not allowed? Especially when there isn't exactly an overwhelming number of people signing up to race in the first place. Isn't AHRMA supposed to be a "national" series? There are more people showing up for the local vintage races. AHRMA is at a point where they NEED to attract a younger generation and that is going to mean branching out to more bikes. They also need to get rid of the number of classes. From what I've been told there may be a decent amount of people on the gates but it's because there are 3 or 4 classes on the gate together. Is everyone just concerned with winning a trophy?
MXM
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10/3/2016 4:00pm Edited Date/Time 10/3/2016 4:01pm
motojason wrote:
MXM is that you in the pic? Badass! I will definately be ordering a jersey. Want one of the Sinisalo designs so I can pretend to...
MXM is that you in the pic? Badass! I will definately be ordering a jersey. Want one of the Sinisalo designs so I can pretend to be like Ward! Love my 83 KXs.
Yup that's me in the summer of 1983 and still going strong on my current 125's! Check out the Jersey, we have those!
wfoyz250
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10/3/2016 5:55pm
731chopper is right on!!!
It is a joke.
I've seen riders do more with less in the respective class.
IMO it's all about rider skill......period.
Madmax31
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10/5/2016 7:36am
The fact that you can't race an 82 KX because it has a disc is absolutely ridiculous. Is it better than a drum, of course, but that was what it came with.

People can run Race Tech emulators, but not a bike that came with a disc. Just stupid.
Steve125
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10/5/2016 8:21am Edited Date/Time 10/6/2016 5:59am
I'd love to see these KX's lined up at the gate. It's way over due. I won't be crying foul on my drum brake 82 RM250Z.. and I really don't think anyone else will either.
jtracing6
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10/5/2016 8:52am
At least things are simple in Europe. 60's, 70's, Twin Shocks, Evo's (up to 1989) and Super Evo's (up to 1996 or 1999 depending on organiser).
maicocd
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10/5/2016 10:10am
731chopper wrote:
I'll be racing my first AHRMA race next month at Rio Bravo. I got into vintage a year ago and have raced a few races here...
I'll be racing my first AHRMA race next month at Rio Bravo. I got into vintage a year ago and have raced a few races here in Texas at TVRC races (which is a great group of people). I've wanted to do a few AHRMA races so I've read up on some of the events, some of the rules and a lot of the bs that goes along with it.

My old man raced Diamond Dons earlier this year as his first AHRMA race and his second just yesterday in Tulsa. Based on what I've read and heard, this issue is such a great parallel to what's going on in general. My dad said racing an AHRMA race is like racing a motocross race sanctioned by the federal government. Is it not comical how they decide what bikes are and are not allowed? Especially when there isn't exactly an overwhelming number of people signing up to race in the first place. Isn't AHRMA supposed to be a "national" series? There are more people showing up for the local vintage races. AHRMA is at a point where they NEED to attract a younger generation and that is going to mean branching out to more bikes. They also need to get rid of the number of classes. From what I've been told there may be a decent amount of people on the gates but it's because there are 3 or 4 classes on the gate together. Is everyone just concerned with winning a trophy?
I've been out of vintage racing for years now, but it doesn't seem that much has changed as far as the approach to rules-- especially for bike eligibility.
Back years ago it was the debate of "vintage" vs "post-vintage". Back then, Post-vintage bikes were (for some unknown reason) a very big threat to the existence of vintage racing. The overwhelming feeling was that they were not only not welcome on the track the same day as a "vintage" bike, but it would probably be best if you left them home in a different state just to be safe... Sheesh!!
The fact that someone that owned and raced a '74 YZ in AHRMA might also own and appreciate racing a '78-'80 YZ was pretty much near blasphemy. And like you mentioned-- the thought that this would provide not only additional participants and interest, but stability and growth to the organization was of little interest even back then.

I was hoping to hear that some sensibility had finally crept its way into the collective thinking, but what do they say? "Some things never change?"
motojason
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10/5/2016 10:21am
Good to see consensus on this issue. I have been talking about this for several years and have yet to find a single person who is against including the KXs with disk brakes that would otherwise fit the Ultima class rules. It's especially great when current racers riding other brands are in agreement that comparable year Kawasakis should be allowed.

Several interesting points / comments have been made in response to this thread:

1) Vintage racing today should accurately reflect the actual history of competition from the period. The 70s and 80s were a golden age of MX technological advancement, that should be reflected and celebrated today. We know how it happened, no need to arbitrarily monkey with it now!

2) There are many excellent vintage and post vintage regional clubs hosting races with simpler rules structures than AHRMA. Very true! It is also a fact that most of the organizers and promoters of these local series came from having some relationship to AHRMA. Today AHRMA is the only vintage National Series with races in nearly every area of the country. (The AMA has reduced their National Vintage Championship racing to a single weekend in their own backyard.) The local series' are thriving in many regions, it would be beneficial for AHRMA to learn from their examples as they have proven successful at evolving vintage competition. How do you want to earn that trophy or National Title?

3) Change is needed at the top. Transition planning in a first generation businesses is difficult. AHRMA off road is slowly making the transition to second generation leadership and it is tough for some of the senior Board members to see their "baby" take a new direction. It will happen and there are numerous progressive minded people in on the Board already. It is my hope that the people who started the organization will get the respect they deserve for what they built while turning it over gracefully to a new generation that can take it forward. VOTE...contact committees and the Board on issues that you are passionate about.

4) AHRMA is a bureaucratic organization. That is both good and bad. It is slower to change and adapt, but has a broader base and national reach. The rules may change slower than we would like, but an organization that is not reliant on a single person or small group from a single region can be more stable and represent a broader spectrum of vintage racers.

5) First generation Kawi disk brakes are stronger, yes, but maybe not better. The motorcycle press at the time indicated other manufacturer's drums were better overall when you factored in modulation, maintenance, and feel over a wide range of track conditions. I know the they can be touchy. I try to run the softest organic pads I can find. The metalics are way too aggressive IMO, and they wear out disks quicker.
mark_swart
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10/5/2016 4:20pm
I completely agree that model year should trump technology. That's pretty much how the arms race of bike development works, it's silly from a historical perspective to snub a bike that was available to the public (and there's some irony that in 1983, a factory guy could have had anything they want on a completely handmade bike, but this production bike isn't allowed at an amateur vintage race!)

I've only been vintage racing for a year, in Evo and newer classes. I just looked up the AHMRA rules... wow. Are there even classes for anything newer than 83-ish?
motojason
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10/6/2016 5:35am Edited Date/Time 10/6/2016 5:37am
mark_swart wrote:
I completely agree that model year should trump technology. That's pretty much how the arms race of bike development works, it's silly from a historical perspective...
I completely agree that model year should trump technology. That's pretty much how the arms race of bike development works, it's silly from a historical perspective to snub a bike that was available to the public (and there's some irony that in 1983, a factory guy could have had anything they want on a completely handmade bike, but this production bike isn't allowed at an amateur vintage race!)

I've only been vintage racing for a year, in Evo and newer classes. I just looked up the AHMRA rules... wow. Are there even classes for anything newer than 83-ish?
mark: technically, the only AHRMA classes for bikes later than the Ultima Class (circa 83) is "Pre-Modern". It is in the rule book as a promoter optional, non-points class. After being around for several years, Pre-Modern is due to be up graded to a full national and regional points class. Off Road Director and Board Member Fred Guidi is an advocate of this as well. He has been racing his Pre-Modern Honda CR lately too.

I think it would be great to see the class become a permanent national class and include all of the 80's bikes to '89 in the PV AHRMA program. Those later 80's bikes are really fun to ride. By then all the manufacturers had their bikes fairly well sorted, good handling, good suspension, good motors.
barkhard696
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10/6/2016 6:40am
My main concern would be that by the time change actually comes to AHRMA, the ship will largely have passed. Look at how big vintage is in the UK and AUS, where there it's more a 2t celebration instead of the political animal it is here. (Those guys end up buying all our bikes and parts, a rare example of America actually exporting anything anymore.)

My assessment of the AMA = a bunch of undereducated hacks hoping desperately to land their dream jobs at an OEM someday. Just like our politicians moving on to become big-bucks lobbyists.

My assessment of AHRMA = a bunch of old guys trying to desperately hold onto their Good Old Boys club, screw everything else. Sounds like any other special interest group if you ask me. Or USPS.

As much as I hate to say this, we could learn a lot from the Euros on making vintage viable and sustainable. AHRMA should understand hella better than anybody that the clock is busy ticking away before they become completely irrelevant, and any US vintage devolves into local groups (no knock on local groups, some are quite good).
Mike 29
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10/7/2016 7:55am
I really enjoy racing AHRMA events, I raced at 11 last year and have done 15 so far this year with two more (Moberly & Rio Bravo) scheduled. I have no problem lining up with any 1984 motorcycle in the Ultima Post Vintage class, if Jason is a better rider he will beat me, the disk brake will have ZERO influence on the result. In fact, if you read the old MX Action reviews nobody really thought the KX was that good anyways.

AHRMA is a member run / governed organization. Each member has a vote on who they think would be suitable to lead AHRMA. Four board members are elected each fall, it’s a shame so few actually vote.

This fall in the Eastern section (east of the Mississippi) there will be two candidates who are over 70 years old. While they are both great guys, who have given tremendously to the organization in its formative years, they are not in touch with todays (or tomorrows) riders. And while we do owe them a great deal of gratitude for the work they have done on AHRMA’s behalf, WE DO NOT owe them a lifetime appointment.

In the past few years AHRMA’s membership has dropped from over 5,000 to just over 3,000 today. With the current demographics this is the opposite of progress.

It’s up to US, lets “MAKE AHRMA GREAT AGAIN” vote for change…….
MaxPower
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10/7/2016 9:21am
I have an 83 KX and I have found that not all of the people that run the AHRMA are trying to hold on to their Good Ol Boys club . And they are solely the reason vintage racing wll survive within that organization. The men I speak of are on the list earlier in this post. Its my belief this rule change will pass.
Im happy to see so much KX support from everyone here
motojason
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10/7/2016 1:14pm
Hey MaxPower, Good to hear from another Kawi guy! Have always loved 83 KXs. The 83 KX125 was my first big bike as a teen. When I found another a few years ago it filled the hole in my soul pretty well! Hope to meet you at a race sometime.
motojason
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10/7/2016 1:22pm Edited Date/Time 10/7/2016 1:23pm
Hey Mike, you're a Suzuki guy, don't go calling attention to the fact that MXA said 82-83 KXs were not that great. Like Kermit said, It's not easy being green. You're gonna hurt my feelings... LOL!

VOTE, change is good.
motojason
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10/9/2016 6:14am
berniepiet wrote:
Any word on a ruling yet?
Final decision will be made at Board Meeting tomorrow, Monday 10/10/16.
mxrose3
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10/10/2016 1:14pm
Any insiders know the outcome of this?
motojason
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10/13/2016 5:35am
Still waiting on official word. Will post as soon as news breaks.
motojason
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10/14/2016 9:05am Edited Date/Time 10/14/2016 9:07am
It's official: DENIED! No OEM front (only) disk brake KXs in Ultima classes for 2017.

The AHRMA Board of Trustees has ignored its member's views and the position of their own Post Vintage Rules Committee on a significant issue. The issue is not just regarding disk brake technology. The issue has become the Board's rigid adherence to the status quo, its apparent desire to side step equitable competition, and its gross disregard for history. This vote represents a break from the PVMX Mission Statement and I believe, is counter to growing future membership.

Change must come, by the members, for the members, of the members! I would like to see a significant shift in AHRMA PVMX before the organization becomes completely irrelevant in the view of Vintage MX racers across the country.

AHRMA Board, ever hear of a SWOT analysis? The more progressive regional vintage MX clubs are eating your lunch...

MaxPower
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10/14/2016 5:33pm Edited Date/Time 10/14/2016 5:41pm
I'm shocked.
It's as if the Ahrma is run by our government
Rokons are legal ,what's up with that?
Anyone that raced in 1983 that placed in top 5 should be required to retroactively return their trophy because it was unfair
I don't want to get upset about something that I can not do anything about. I'm grateful for the Ahrma members that did support the legality of the KX and glad to know they exist
berniepiet
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10/15/2016 8:47am
motojason wrote:
It's official: DENIED! No OEM front (only) disk brake KXs in Ultima classes for 2017. The AHRMA Board of Trustees has ignored its member's views and...
It's official: DENIED! No OEM front (only) disk brake KXs in Ultima classes for 2017.

The AHRMA Board of Trustees has ignored its member's views and the position of their own Post Vintage Rules Committee on a significant issue. The issue is not just regarding disk brake technology. The issue has become the Board's rigid adherence to the status quo, its apparent desire to side step equitable competition, and its gross disregard for history. This vote represents a break from the PVMX Mission Statement and I believe, is counter to growing future membership.

Change must come, by the members, for the members, of the members! I would like to see a significant shift in AHRMA PVMX before the organization becomes completely irrelevant in the view of Vintage MX racers across the country.

AHRMA Board, ever hear of a SWOT analysis? The more progressive regional vintage MX clubs are eating your lunch...

Yes Jason, the regional clubs are eating their lunch. Our series here in the Midwest is quite popular. Our last two races we had 206 & 186 entries respectively. We also have a 4 man team race that we had 14 teams enter. It was a riot. We seldom have less that 120 entries, 120 would be for a mud race. I held off on renewing my AHRMA membership this year based on the outcome of this issue. I was planning on running the whole national series if I could ride my Kawasaki's in 3 classes. Sadly, I will not renew. In fact, until this issue is resolved in a reasonable manner, I will not renew. Thanks to you and Fred for all your hard work.
Bearuno
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10/15/2016 12:14pm Edited Date/Time 10/15/2016 12:15pm
Here's the reason I've steered clear of Vintage / Vet etc racing.

Unfathomable Rules.

A bike is made / sold in the 'dated' period - it's eligible for that class.

It's as simple as that.

Idiocy.
berniepiet
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10/15/2016 1:04pm
Bearuno wrote:
Here's the reason I've steered clear of Vintage / Vet etc racing. Unfathomable Rules. A bike is made / sold in the 'dated' period - it's...
Here's the reason I've steered clear of Vintage / Vet etc racing.

Unfathomable Rules.

A bike is made / sold in the 'dated' period - it's eligible for that class.

It's as simple as that.

Idiocy.
See, the Aussies understand .....
Bearuno
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10/16/2016 6:29pm Edited Date/Time 10/16/2016 6:32pm
Please note:

I've seen a whole lot of BS here in OZ with regards to 'historic' racing. Friends tearing their hair out over crap, whilst seeing favoured individuals be able to pretty much do what they want. We are far from being immune to idiocy . It is, as I said, why I have not got more involved with it. I've a reasonable collection of old(er) bikes, but stick to my (relatively) newer ones for my now (very) rare racing efforts.

I just want to get on the bike, and ride - not be caught up in BS that seems to so permeate the vintage / vet scene. It's a pity - there are so, so many great people in the historic scene, with just a handful making things 'difficult'. I suspect it's the same, World wide.
bultokid
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10/17/2016 9:37am Edited Date/Time 10/17/2016 9:43am
Just plain stupid is only way to describe it, let the KX's in..NO ONE, save for a few has a problem with KX's being legal

Same group that will not let any bike past 1979 in trials.....brilliant

Same group that lets '76 KX400 in vintage but not a '75 Bul 360...more brilliance

Same group that when PV first came on-line wanted nothing to do with us and acted like we had the plague...more brilliant, forward thinking

I support AHRMA since have been racing vintage since '94 but some of their decisions are just plain stupid

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