crickets

vet323
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5/19/2014 5:12pm Edited Date/Time 5/19/2014 5:13pm
MXM wrote:
..
I understand the day before sign up would not be a huge help to the promoter, so make that very clear on the sign up page on your website, spell it out.

They say on the entry form page that early entry closes the Sunday prior to the race-very clear.

The rule not allowing a same year bike to not race against other bikes and sizes from the same year is beyond stupid,

All vintage racing classes (cars or bikes) are delineated by a combination of years and technology, I have never seen a VMX organization that breaks classes up solely by year of production. Yes, that does cause some problems and there will always be arguments about what bikes are appropriate to race in each class, but it's not because someone is targeting 1983 KXs.

...if the other riders don't like it maybe they should buy that bike instead, that's there choice just like it was back in 1983, and to do otherwise is re-writing history because they don't like green or whatever, to bad, man up and ride better. I do understand why the promoters would rather have 5 yellow bikes instead of one green bike because it's more money in there pocket, but come on do you really think others won't ride because a green bike is out there? If so you have some real losers in this or that club, maybe they were beat by a green bike back in 83 and can't get over it?

I remember racing my 1984 CR125 against 1983 KX125s, they were just as competitive then as yours would be now.

lastly, I really hate the " buy your own club" or "go ride somewere else if you think the track sucks" response to asking or commenting to try and make things better. I see that as a very lame way to deflect the fact that maybe there have been mistakes made, and instead of working together and fixing things they say " go elsewere if you don't like it".

Look, I really hated doing that too- but YOU were the one suggesting that the AVDRA guy needed to look for a different job, I'm just suggesting that you take over for a while.
Greg-15
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Folsom, CA US
5/19/2014 7:41pm Edited Date/Time 5/19/2014 7:43pm
MXM wrote:
...
I own some vintage machines that fall in a "Dead Zone". I still like them but do not ride them much at events. Do you like the 1982 KX250? This would be a good bike for you since it has a drum brake. You can show up at the races and run the GP3 250 class and the age classes and not be under powered. You would would get a great use at an event with it by running multi classes with one bike.
5/19/2014 8:35pm
I always though the technology based limits on the years of the bikes was LAME LAME LAME and why I won't bother with vmx racing dudes get all mini dad on mod's who cares!! I thought it was all about the fun anyways?! reliving the glory days!! The vmx scene here in the Pac NW sucks hard core they don't even have really anything beyond 1980 and my fav bikes are like `83 thru `89.
notme
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5/19/2014 8:56pm
Greg the 82 KX250 had a front disc as well, check my avitar.

The Shop

MXM
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pickstick BD
5/19/2014 10:16pm Edited Date/Time 8/13/2015 8:49am
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MaxPower
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5/20/2014 7:12am Edited Date/Time 5/20/2014 5:19pm
MXM wrote:
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Did you expect this to go any where?
Everyone that posted pretty much agrees with you.
You know I agree with you. This directly effects me. i am riding the bike you are making the point about.
But how angry am I going to get about something that I can't do anything about? .
My choice is to ride with newer bikes or don't ride.
I'm very happy you brought this to attention. Maybe one day it will change.
In the end I feel it doesn't really matter. VMX is a bunch of old men rolling jumps talking like they are flying and yapping about thier bikes to anyone that will listen.
If you won't go to vintage events both you and the sport loses it out.
You don't get to have old man fun and there is someone with a passion for old bikes not representing and sharing the love for days past with other old men.
PN27416
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Coopersburg, PA US
5/20/2014 7:23am
So would they turn down a a mid 70's Rokon with f&r discs? I would hope not.
5/20/2014 8:53am
So, I have inquired with an AHRMA official about this little conundrum and I will start building a rules proposal change for the KX's in this period. It will take me a little time and I'll need some input. If any of you KX owners want to PM me to help I will gladly take it. I'm not a KX expert by any means but it is a worthy conversation to have. I have until May 30 to get it together. The point about the Rokon's will be part of the argument by the way. Good catch PN27416.


This thread is starting to give me tired head and the ragging on VMX is very short sighted IMO. The argument is valid but some of these comments are not.
Matt Fisher
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5/20/2014 11:12am
I would assume that the promoters are trying to avoid someone combining a new KTM brake setup on their 83 KX and claiming "but it's a disk brake".

A fairly simple solution would be to limit the disk diameter to the stock size and/or limiting the caliper piston diameter.
MXM
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5/20/2014 11:25am Edited Date/Time 8/13/2015 8:49am
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5/20/2014 1:41pm
You know what's funny and sad about this ruling is they don't even use the same logic as they did with there other stupid rule that I mentioned in the vintage class. At least there they will allow you to race a bike that came with more than 4'' rear travel against others that don't, if you limit the suspension to 4'', yet with this disc ruling they will not let you put a older drum brake on the bike to make it legal for the class, what kind of logic is that ?
dlowe102
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Jacksonville, FL US
5/22/2014 4:23am
why don't they just have rules like real life. anything 74 und under 77 and under 80 and under 84 and under and so on
dlowe102
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Jacksonville, FL US
5/22/2014 4:25am
Well I use this to an advantage.. :o) I race my 83 Husky 250 CR in the Evo class which is dual shock, drum brake air...
Well I use this to an advantage.. :o) I race my 83 Husky 250 CR in the Evo class which is dual shock, drum brake air cooled.
So I am up against 79ish Japaneses bikes...
Who knew that Husky's dragging its feet to move into the modern age would be a technological advantage.
I agree. Rules should just be by year of bike
Ive had that idea ever since I first read the rule book. whats the parts availability on those?
5/22/2014 4:51am
dlowe102 wrote:
why don't they just have rules like real life. anything 74 und under 77 and under 80 and under 84 and under and so on
Would make far more sense.
Everything goes by model year, and allows period mods.

You shouldn't have to handicap a standard bike.
As a rider, you can either choose to ride the most competitive bike within that period, or choose the competition.

It's like turning up for a marathon to find out the Kenyans have chosen to run barefoot.
Doesn't mean you should be made to take your shoes off too.
5/22/2014 8:45am Edited Date/Time 5/22/2014 8:47am
It sounds so simple but making a generic year cut off forces some shitty bikes into later model classes that aren't that competitive. The 1978 Honda CR125 was a turd in comparison to the Suzuki, Yammie, and Kawi in 1978 as it was just basically a warmed over 1976 model. Honda sat on their ass basically from 1976-1978. If you did the year rule cut off you would rarely see a 1978 model CR125 at a track. So, AHRMA allows the 1978 model CR125 to run in the Historic class which is basically those 1975-77 models. If a bike didn't keep up with the times there is some wisdom here to allow it to run down a class so we can enjoy seeing these growth stunted bikes at the track. There are other exceptions too beyond this but I wanted to point out one case I've very familiar with.
5/22/2014 8:59am Edited Date/Time 5/22/2014 9:01am
I do understand the point, and the theory is sound.

What it does do though, is open a can of worms. The added complexity of the regs, misinterpretation, the addition of certain years, the exclusion of others.
The decisions of the management will therefore come into question.
Some people will always feel cheated.

With a manufacture date cut-off, there's no arguments. Because it's not someone's interpretation of a level playing field. It's just what you had back at the time, and you chose your weapon accordingly back then too.

The guys who want to race a lemon, will race it anyway. The guys who own those bikes, generally won't give a hoot about results, and just ride for the fun of it. (I'm one of those guys)
5/22/2014 9:38am
Yeah, the can of worms is the problem everytime one of these exceptions comes along. Some make clear sense and nobody argues about it, like the 1978 CR125 rule, but power valves, disc brakes, uni shocks, too much suspension are the gray area topics.

I like to think I'm more of a for fun guy but showing up to a gun fight with a knife takes it toll on you. Nobody likes being handicapped all the time...for a few races it's okay to most but then you see the separation of "for fun" and "being competitive".

Good discussion.
MXM
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5/22/2014 11:48am Edited Date/Time 8/13/2015 8:49am
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vet323
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5/22/2014 4:54pm
MXM wrote:
..
You make some good points and I totally agree that strict rules and major competition should not be the focus of vintage racing. There is also merit in your ides about how classes could be organized.

I have been to only four vintage events in my vintage "career" and each time that was what I experienced. I signed up for the classes they said my bikes belonged in (1974 CR250/ 1977 CR125/ 1978 YZ250/ 1980 CR250/ 1984 CR500/ 1987 CR250). I lined up to race when my races came up and raced against the other bikes that were on the line with me and had a blast.. In between races I walked all over the pits and bench raced my ass off with everyone there.

Never got into what bikes belonged where, why my CR125 had to race against 78 RMs and YZs . Never met a single guy at any of those races who thought they were doing something serious at all, everyone had fun- no jerks.

Are there vintage races where guys are jerks? Does that happen?
MaxPower
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5/23/2014 5:38pm
Jerks into vintage?
Apparently you have never received a cease and desist letter from Todd Applegates lawyers
Dragoo168
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NV US
12/8/2014 3:20pm
I recall that the 2004 Nevada State MX Championship, 30+ Expert class, was won on a 1997 Rm250 2stroke w/conventional forks,...If you love it, race it,...it's only that much sweeter when you overall the whiners and their excuses,...I think I want to buy an '83 KX now, and race vintage...
CamP
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Colleyville, TX US
12/8/2014 5:56pm
Our local club has it figured out. They simply run bikes by year. Our GPIII class is 82-84 bikes, with no exclusions.

Excluding the 82-84 KX's and 84 CR's because they have a disc brake is stupid.
BigAl
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Prichard, WV US
12/8/2014 6:44pm
CamP wrote:
Our local club has it figured out. They simply run bikes by year. Our GPIII class is 82-84 bikes, with no exclusions. Excluding the 82-84 KX's...
Our local club has it figured out. They simply run bikes by year. Our GPIII class is 82-84 bikes, with no exclusions.

Excluding the 82-84 KX's and 84 CR's because they have a disc brake is stupid.
Out of curiosity, why not 81-84?
12/8/2014 7:26pm Edited Date/Time 12/8/2014 7:29pm
CamP wrote:
Our local club has it figured out. They simply run bikes by year. Our GPIII class is 82-84 bikes, with no exclusions. Excluding the 82-84 KX's...
Our local club has it figured out. They simply run bikes by year. Our GPIII class is 82-84 bikes, with no exclusions.

Excluding the 82-84 KX's and 84 CR's because they have a disc brake is stupid.
Out of pure respect to our local club I would not say they have "completely" figured it out as now we have 1981 water cooled, uni's in with the 1978-1981 twin shocks. It's a very weird era of some mixed technologies. However, what I do agree with is they (local TVRC) figured out was to allow these early disc bikes in with the other water cooled uni's. This is the part AHRMA is missing. Nobody has it right in my small opinion but at least the conversation is occurring more often which usually leads to opening some doors. A few years ago this conversation was shut down, now it's not.

The non vintage racers on here reading this probably think we're a bunch of kooks in dissecting this stuff but it's really just a super small specific issue that affect about 1% of the overall picture...this is the devil in the detail stuff.
12/9/2014 6:07am
I live in the northeast and our vintage racing club has this one figured out. Others should look to it because it’s the most packed gate at our events. It’s a simple Vintage 80’s class for all bikes model year 1989 and older with separate 125cc and 250cc classes. We still have grumblings of competiveness of drum-rear, non-power valve, etc. bikes in an inclusive class like this but it deals with the disc issue and more importantly provides the next most important step of growing vintage motocross. There is also a Vintage 90’s class which will grow with time.
Madmax31
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Cincinnati, OH US
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12/9/2014 7:33am
I've always that it's total BS! A really stupid rule. The damn thing was produced in 83 so it should be allowed to race with others the same damn year.
CamP
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12/9/2014 8:09am Edited Date/Time 12/9/2014 8:10am
CamP wrote:
Our local club has it figured out. They simply run bikes by year. Our GPIII class is 82-84 bikes, with no exclusions. Excluding the 82-84 KX's...
Our local club has it figured out. They simply run bikes by year. Our GPIII class is 82-84 bikes, with no exclusions.

Excluding the 82-84 KX's and 84 CR's because they have a disc brake is stupid.
Out of pure respect to our local club I would not say they have "completely" figured it out as now we have 1981 water cooled, uni's...
Out of pure respect to our local club I would not say they have "completely" figured it out as now we have 1981 water cooled, uni's in with the 1978-1981 twin shocks. It's a very weird era of some mixed technologies. However, what I do agree with is they (local TVRC) figured out was to allow these early disc bikes in with the other water cooled uni's. This is the part AHRMA is missing. Nobody has it right in my small opinion but at least the conversation is occurring more often which usually leads to opening some doors. A few years ago this conversation was shut down, now it's not.

The non vintage racers on here reading this probably think we're a bunch of kooks in dissecting this stuff but it's really just a super small specific issue that affect about 1% of the overall picture...this is the devil in the detail stuff.
The TVRC isn't perfect, but it's on the right track. If anything, we have the GP4 and GP5 classes kind of jacked up with the 1993 and 2003 break dates. IMO, 1985-1990 was a very distinct technology period, and 1991-2000 was another technology step forward. By the time you get to 2001-2003+, the bikes are essentially modern. I've spoken with several club members that agree.

What I'd like to propose is that the club revises the classes so that there is technological parody in GP 4 and 5.

GP4 = 1990 and earlier
GP5 = 2000 and earlier
Open 2-stroke = run what you brung

There will be some grumbling from the guys that went out and bought 1993 and 2003 model bikes specifically for the classes, but if we let them drive the decision making, that's the tail wagging the dog.
MXM
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pickstick BD
12/9/2014 8:30am Edited Date/Time 8/13/2015 8:49am
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12/9/2014 8:38am
Totally agree.

The best way to ensure fairness is to choose a cut-off date, and stick to it.
Further excludion of better bikes, or inclusion of worse ones would be contrary to history.

If it's such a problem, they should've made the cut-off '82, but somehow I get the idea that whoever made the rules had an '83 in their shed (that wasn't green) and didn't want to have to race newer machinery.

The easiest way round that is to Create the rules that suit yourself, and stick two fingers up to the past, I suppose.
MaxPower
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12/10/2014 1:08pm Edited Date/Time 12/10/2014 1:19pm
MXM, I wrote you a message on the weekend. I know you had wanted a 83 KX. I found one for sale in New Jersey. It looks to be at a much worse starting point than mine was.But when you change everything it doesn't really matter anyway. I can send you a picture if you like. It will definitely be more work than the 1987 bikes you had restored.

If they are going to bump me to race with power valved bikes i was thinking of running an engine from a 85 KX

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