TSA and Homeland Security sucks

oldfart wrote: Well apparently the system knows there is a bad Jim Martin, but must not know which one? They seem to verify it by his ID, which does have a # on it. Something in the system releases his flag upon presentation of an ID, so it sounds to me like the system can tell the difference. It just makes it inconvenient for Jim to do that.

That makes us safer how?

flarider wrote: When the human sees his ID and clears him in the system

flarider wrote: When the human sees his ID and clears him in the system

oldfart wrote: Well apparently the system knows there is a bad Jim Martin, but must not know which one? They seem to verify it by his ID, which does have a # on it. Something in the system releases his flag upon presentation of an ID, so it sounds to me like the system can tell the difference. It just makes it inconvenient for Jim to do that.

That makes us safer how?

flarider wrote: When the human sees his ID and clears him in the system

oldfart wrote: Right, a human looks at the ID, punches that number in, and the system says, OH, that's not the bad guy, let him go. The system knows good guy from bad, but relies on a human to make the call. That leaves alot of room for error.

oldfart wrote: Right, a human looks at the ID, punches that number in, and the system says, OH, that's not the bad guy, let him go. The system knows good guy from bad, but relies on a human to make the call. That leaves alot of room for error.

tunedlength wrote: When you said real data I was hoping I would learn something.
Now I have learned something. But not about your real data.

oldfart wrote: In other words, you have nothing? Got it, thanks.

tunedlength wrote: http://www.heritage.org/.../b2085_chart1-lg.gif

tunedlength wrote: http://www.heritage.org/.../b2085_chart1-lg.gif

oldfart wrote: Right, a human looks at the ID, punches that number in, and the system says, OH, that's not the bad guy, let him go. The system knows good guy from bad, but relies on a human to make the call. That leaves alot of room for error.

flarider wrote: and once Jim gets his redress number, he can put that in himself and problem solved, unless you think we should have to enter personal info like SSN, DL# or Passport# when buying domestic tickets?

flarider wrote: and once Jim gets his redress number, he can put that in himself and problem solved, unless you think we should have to enter personal info like SSN, DL# or Passport# when buying domestic tickets?

oldfart wrote: In other words, you have nothing? Got it, thanks.

tunedlength wrote: http://www.heritage.org/.../b2085_chart1-lg.gif

oldfart wrote: How is that at all relevant to airport security?

oldfart wrote: How is that at all relevant to airport security?

jmar wrote: Then its not a very effetive system. After all this is homeland security we're talking about.

flarider wrote: Jim, let me ask you a question.

Of the information you give when purchasing a ticket, how is the system supposed to know it's you?

Do you give your SSN?
No
Do you give your DL#?
No
Do you give your passport#?
No

You give your name and maybe your FF# (which is not secure or government issued, so it means nothing)

What identifying data, other than your name, do you provide to show you're not the bad Jim Martin, but the good Jim Martin?

jmar wrote:
Name (First, Last and initial on the middle)
Address
phone #
fax #
Credit Card# (always the same card)
My email address
My assistants email address
The Dallas office managers email address that get's my itinerary every flight.
A-list member #

That's a lot of info to separate me from someone else. 2010 is right around the corner and computer systems can think for themselves.

BTW: If I call to check something on my account, before I can get the info they ask me when my last fight was and to where.

jmar wrote:
Name (First, Last and initial on the middle)
Address
phone #
fax #
Credit Card# (always the same card)
My email address
My assistants email address
The Dallas office managers email address that get's my itinerary every flight.
A-list member #

That's a lot of info to separate me from someone else. 2010 is right around the corner and computer systems can think for themselves.

BTW: If I call to check something on my account, before I can get the info they ask me when my last fight was and to where.

jmar wrote: and once Jim gets his redress number, he can put that in himself and problem solved

It took over a year last time and I find that totally unacceptable.

jmar wrote: and once Jim gets his redress number, he can put that in himself and problem solved

It took over a year last time and I find that totally unacceptable.

flarider wrote: so you want the government to database your CC#?

Other than that, the rest is useless and easily obtainable through public records.

flarider wrote: so you want the government to database your CC#?

Other than that, the rest is useless and easily obtainable through public records.

flarider wrote: Go here http://www.flyertalk.com/...safety-security-222/ where everyone hates TSA and they will all agree with you.
They also wear tin foil hats and fear big brother.
They think everyone should be able to walk on a plane like walking onto a city bus

flarider wrote: Go here http://www.flyertalk.com/...safety-security-222/ where everyone hates TSA and they will all agree with you.
They also wear tin foil hats and fear big brother.
They think everyone should be able to walk on a plane like walking onto a city bus

brainbasket wrote: I saw a piece on the Israeli airline security system that's been in place for many years. There is no country with a bigger terror target on it than Israel - yet Israeli air flights are the safest in the world.

Maybe the US should adopt the same tactics the Israeli's use ......

jmar wrote:
My guess is that like any other defense related contract that our government let's out, we never get what we pay for. I would bet that the TSA computer system doesn't do what it’s supposed to do.

brainbasket wrote: Considering the US has the most technologically advanced military in the world, if it's contracts result in inferior products - I'm not sure where the improvement would come from.

A better guess is that restrictions were placed in the system parameters to comply with lawmakers concerns regarding the rights of the civilians the system monitors.
My guess is the Israeli system is designed with only one requirement - Aircraft and passenger security.

brainbasket wrote: Considering the US has the most technologically advanced military in the world, if it's contracts result in inferior products - I'm not sure where the improvement would come from.

A better guess is that restrictions were placed in the system parameters to comply with lawmakers concerns regarding the rights of the civilians the system monitors.
My guess is the Israeli system is designed with only one requirement - Aircraft and passenger security.

oldfart wrote: Right, a human looks at the ID, punches that number in, and the system says, OH, that's not the bad guy, let him go. The system knows good guy from bad, but relies on a human to make the call. That leaves alot of room for error.

flarider wrote: and once Jim gets his redress number, he can put that in himself and problem solved, unless you think we should have to enter personal info like SSN, DL# or Passport# when buying domestic tickets?

oldfart wrote: Do you know how easy it is to obtain a fake government ID???

oldfart wrote: Do you know how easy it is to obtain a fake government ID???

flarider wrote: Go here http://www.flyertalk.com/...safety-security-222/ where everyone hates TSA and they will all agree with you.
They also wear tin foil hats and fear big brother.
They think everyone should be able to walk on a plane like walking onto a city bus

brainbasket wrote: Good point.
I wonder how many of the same people would be the first to lawyer up and join the class actions against the airlines and the gov and any other connected organization if one of their loved ones died in a terror related airline bombing etc...

brainbasket wrote: Good point.
I wonder how many of the same people would be the first to lawyer up and join the class actions against the airlines and the gov and any other connected organization if one of their loved ones died in a terror related airline bombing etc...

brainbasket wrote: Good point.
I wonder how many of the same people would be the first to lawyer up and join the class actions against the airlines and the gov and any other connected organization if one of their loved ones died in a terror related airline bombing etc...

zjbell wrote: Pretty much all of 'em. Bunch'a cooks over there. These guys who are frequent flyers get this mentality that everyone owes them something and they deserve anything they want. If you don't believe it read that website.

zjbell wrote: Pretty much all of 'em. Bunch'a cooks over there. These guys who are frequent flyers get this mentality that everyone owes them something and they deserve anything they want. If you don't believe it read that website.

flarider wrote: so you want the government to database your CC#?

Other than that, the rest is useless and easily obtainable through public records.

jmar wrote:
CC is one out of nine items that separate me from anyone else.
The A-list # alone should do the trick if the system really worked. Do you realize that when I go to the ticket counter all I have to show is a driver’s license? And when at the counter they don't even look to see if it's a fake. That's done when entering the security line.

Where was there any kind of increased security?

jmar wrote:
CC is one out of nine items that separate me from anyone else.
The A-list # alone should do the trick if the system really worked. Do you realize that when I go to the ticket counter all I have to show is a driver’s license? And when at the counter they don't even look to see if it's a fake. That's done when entering the security line.

Where was there any kind of increased security?

brainbasket wrote: Good point.
I wonder how many of the same people would be the first to lawyer up and join the class actions against the airlines and the gov and any other connected organization if one of their loved ones died in a terror related airline bombing etc...

zjbell wrote: Pretty much all of 'em. Bunch'a cooks over there. These guys who are frequent flyers get this mentality that everyone owes them something and they deserve anything they want. If you don't believe it read that website.

oldfart wrote: You seem to be a little jaded and seem to forget who the customer is...Why do pilots exist to begin with? To fly planes full of people and stuff. Those people and stuff are the customers, not you. What they want matters...in most other industries...but people have allowed this one industry to somehow be different.

I'm not one of those people.

oldfart wrote: You seem to be a little jaded and seem to forget who the customer is...Why do pilots exist to begin with? To fly planes full of people and stuff. Those people and stuff are the customers, not you. What they want matters...in most other industries...but people have allowed this one industry to somehow be different.

I'm not one of those people.

jmar wrote: These guys who are frequent flyers get this mentality that everyone owes them something and they deserve anything they want. If you don't believe it read that website.


So I am a kook because I want to be able to print my boarding pass like everyone else?

Someone like you should know how much time that saves. This isn't loading up and heading off for vacation. Its business and time is very critical on my weekly flights.

jmar wrote: These guys who are frequent flyers get this mentality that everyone owes them something and they deserve anything they want. If you don't believe it read that website.


So I am a kook because I want to be able to print my boarding pass like everyone else?

Someone like you should know how much time that saves. This isn't loading up and heading off for vacation. Its business and time is very critical on my weekly flights.

jmar wrote: These guys who are frequent flyers get this mentality that everyone owes them something and they deserve anything they want. If you don't believe it read that website.


So I am a kook because I want to be able to print my boarding pass like everyone else?

Someone like you should know how much time that saves. This isn't loading up and heading off for vacation. Its business and time is very critical on my weekly flights.

zjbell wrote: I'm not talking about printing a boarding pass at home, I'm talking about the guys who bitch about upgrades, free drinks, admission into the diamond platinum medallion club, and just walk by any line directly to the front since their so special. SWA doesn't get this type because they don't offer the perks that the legacy carriers offer.

zjbell wrote: I'm not talking about printing a boarding pass at home, I'm talking about the guys who bitch about upgrades, free drinks, admission into the diamond platinum medallion club, and just walk by any line directly to the front since their so special. SWA doesn't get this type because they don't offer the perks that the legacy carriers offer.

tunedlength wrote: http://www.heritage.org/.../b2085_chart1-lg.gif

oldfart wrote: How is that at all relevant to airport security?

tunedlength wrote: I assumed if you could type you could read. My mistake.

tunedlength wrote: I assumed if you could type you could read. My mistake.

oldfart wrote: You seem to be a little jaded and seem to forget who the customer is...Why do pilots exist to begin with? To fly planes full of people and stuff. Those people and stuff are the customers, not you. What they want matters...in most other industries...but people have allowed this one industry to somehow be different.

I'm not one of those people.

zjbell wrote: I would say that 90% of the people who are rude to flight crew, the ticket agents and ground people are double platinum super whatever lever frequent flyers. I don't care who the fuck you are but if you want to act like a dick and be rude or obnoxious I'll toss your ass right off that airplane. And guess what, the company will be right behind me.
Dickheads become even larger dickheads at 36,000 feet.

zjbell wrote: I would say that 90% of the people who are rude to flight crew, the ticket agents and ground people are double platinum super whatever lever frequent flyers. I don't care who the fuck you are but if you want to act like a dick and be rude or obnoxious I'll toss your ass right off that airplane. And guess what, the company will be right behind me.
Dickheads become even larger dickheads at 36,000 feet.

flarider wrote: Go here http://www.flyertalk.com/...safety-security-222/ where everyone hates TSA and they will all agree with you.
They also wear tin foil hats and fear big brother.
They think everyone should be able to walk on a plane like walking onto a city bus

jmar wrote: They think everyone should be able to walk on a plane like walking onto a city bus

Do you really believe that's the way I feel?

I want to be able to print my boarding pass just as you or anybody else does. Restricting people to do so isn't making the airline industry any safer. Like I have already said it just makes me stand in line and show my drivers license to a person at the check in counter who doesn't even take a good hard look at it.

jmar wrote: They think everyone should be able to walk on a plane like walking onto a city bus

Do you really believe that's the way I feel?

I want to be able to print my boarding pass just as you or anybody else does. Restricting people to do so isn't making the airline industry any safer. Like I have already said it just makes me stand in line and show my drivers license to a person at the check in counter who doesn't even take a good hard look at it.

flarider wrote: Go here http://www.flyertalk.com/...safety-security-222/ where everyone hates TSA and they will all agree with you.
They also wear tin foil hats and fear big brother.
They think everyone should be able to walk on a plane like walking onto a city bus

jmar wrote: They think everyone should be able to walk on a plane like walking onto a city bus

Do you really believe that's the way I feel?

I want to be able to print my boarding pass just as you or anybody else does. Restricting people to do so isn't making the airline industry any safer. Like I have already said it just makes me stand in line and show my drivers license to a person at the check in counter who doesn't even take a good hard look at it.

zjbell wrote: He's referring to the flyertalk people...."they"

Go check it out...

zjbell wrote: He's referring to the flyertalk people...."they"

Go check it out...

jmar wrote: I ask my my assistant get on line and print my boarding pass for tomorrows flight and it won't let her check me in. After further investigation she finds out that I have been put on a TSA watch list. I understand that their could be a guy with my name that needs to be on this list but I fly around sixty to seventy round trips a year.

How could their system be so stupid?

FlaNard wrote: They read Vital.

FlaNard wrote: They read Vital.

oldfart wrote: You seem to be a little jaded and seem to forget who the customer is...Why do pilots exist to begin with? To fly planes full of people and stuff. Those people and stuff are the customers, not you. What they want matters...in most other industries...but people have allowed this one industry to somehow be different.

I'm not one of those people.

zjbell wrote: I would say that 90% of the people who are rude to flight crew, the ticket agents and ground people are double platinum super whatever lever frequent flyers. I don't care who the fuck you are but if you want to act like a dick and be rude or obnoxious I'll toss your ass right off that airplane. And guess what, the company will be right behind me.
Dickheads become even larger dickheads at 36,000 feet.

oldfart wrote: I think you'll find that attitude has nothing to do with your industry though. Arrogant people are arrogant people, whether it be on a plane, on a bus, at a sporting event, the grocery store, wherever. Has nothing to do with flying, has to do with people.

I am not one of those people either.

oldfart wrote: I think you'll find that attitude has nothing to do with your industry though. Arrogant people are arrogant people, whether it be on a plane, on a bus, at a sporting event, the grocery store, wherever. Has nothing to do with flying, has to do with people.

I am not one of those people either.

oldfart wrote: How is that at all relevant to airport security?

tunedlength wrote: I assumed if you could type you could read. My mistake.

oldfart wrote: I guess I don't read so good, maybe you can show me specifically what that link has to do with airport security being ridiculously extreme??? Is that your idea of "real data"??

oldfart wrote: I guess I don't read so good, maybe you can show me specifically what that link has to do with airport security being ridiculously extreme??? Is that your idea of "real data"??

oldfart wrote: Have you traveled at all?? You seriously believe we are safer because of all this crap?
The fact that I've had to hike to a ticket counter more than once to show a different person the same fucking ID does NOT make us any safer. The fact that I've had to trash brand new shampoos has NOT made us any safer. The fact that I get singled out EVERY time I fly has NOT made us any safer.

It's made us weaker.....as a country....and as a people.

`ol Ger wrote: Complete AGREEMENT with the Fart from

`ol Ger

`ol Ger wrote: Complete AGREEMENT with the Fart from

`ol Ger

JPT wrote: Fart and jmar. If you get picked every time go to this site. You might be able to get some info that will help you.

http://www.dhs.gov/...c_1169673653081.shtm

JPT wrote: Fart and jmar. If you get picked every time go to this site. You might be able to get some info that will help you.

http://www.dhs.gov/...c_1169673653081.shtm

JPT wrote: Fart and jmar. If you get picked every time go to this site. You might be able to get some info that will help you.

http://www.dhs.gov/...c_1169673653081.shtm

oldfart wrote: Thanks man, and it's nothing personal at all. It's the concept that bothers me, not you and your co workers. Haven't done alot of traveling in the past few years, but when I did, it sure was a pain. All my flights were last minute one way deals, and of course I got flagged everytime.

oldfart wrote: Thanks man, and it's nothing personal at all. It's the concept that bothers me, not you and your co workers. Haven't done alot of traveling in the past few years, but when I did, it sure was a pain. All my flights were last minute one way deals, and of course I got flagged everytime.

JPT wrote: No problem, I don't really take it personal. Most of us understand it's a pain in the ass and we aren't really allowed to explain exactly why we do some things. It's hard to convince folks it's neccessary when the only real indication is that nothing happens. I'll take those complaints over the type of finger pointing about the Ft Hood tragedy anyday.

There are very few of us left that rolled out with TSA. In the beginning I remember people talking about the fear they had that they would be the one to miss something that would cause another disaster. I actually had a couple nightmares about it. It all seemed so imminent. Passengers felt the same way. Now it's just business as usual for everybody.

There is a tendency to only think about 911. But a lot of hi-jackings and bombings occurred over the years before that. None since 911 for American flights. Lots of changes besides screening procedures, but they're all part of the puzzle.

JPT wrote: No problem, I don't really take it personal. Most of us understand it's a pain in the ass and we aren't really allowed to explain exactly why we do some things. It's hard to convince folks it's neccessary when the only real indication is that nothing happens. I'll take those complaints over the type of finger pointing about the Ft Hood tragedy anyday.

There are very few of us left that rolled out with TSA. In the beginning I remember people talking about the fear they had that they would be the one to miss something that would cause another disaster. I actually had a couple nightmares about it. It all seemed so imminent. Passengers felt the same way. Now it's just business as usual for everybody.

There is a tendency to only think about 911. But a lot of hi-jackings and bombings occurred over the years before that. None since 911 for American flights. Lots of changes besides screening procedures, but they're all part of the puzzle.

jmar wrote: I am a dangerious man so you better be careful with what you say.

jmar wrote: I am a dangerious man so you better be careful with what you say.