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Lord Monckton Global Warming

CR250Rider
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Quote

11/3/2009 6:53 PM

Scotty wrote: I was joking.

Nerd wrote: Sorry! You need a smiley or something!

And CR250rider, that's the spin junk science being pushed by the oil and energy industries.

txmxer wrote: actually it's not. Go read pro-AGW sites and they acknowledge that there's more or less a limit in warming due to gases. But, you knew that, right?

Hypothesis 1: The average temperature of a body in thermodynamic equilibrium with an external energy source can never exceed the temperature of a black body in the same environment.

Hypothesis 2: The greenhouse effect can never produce a temperature that is higher than the temperature of a black body in the same environment.





Can there be a tipping point or a runaway greenhouse effect from a sudden injection of CO2/methane or the melting of ice?

No there can not. The Earth has already experienced a runaway greenhouse effect hundreds of times during its lifetime. Each time it has run to the maximum possible level that it can, bringing us the much more habitable climate that we have today. It is not possible for there to be a tipping point to spiral us into a third metastable climate state that has not been shown to exist during the entire history of Earth. Barring a sudden change in input from the sun, changes in climate upwards can only occur in a smooth, slow and limited fashion. A tipping point is possible, however, towards another ice age as has happened hundreds of times before.
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11/3/2009 8:05 PM

Scotty wrote: I was joking.

Nerd wrote: Sorry! You need a smiley or something!

And CR250rider, that's the spin junk science being pushed by the oil and energy industries.

CR250Rider wrote: i just need some more convincing, that's all.


sounds plausible to me, but i'm obviously not a scientist, nor do i pretend to be. but plenty of real qualified ones wonder as I do.

Follow the money? Gore is heavily invested, science grants, from GOVERNMENTS cloud the truth and the U.N. itself stands to gain untold power.


lot's of suspicious elements at play. right?

How hard is it to get through your head that if you're going to "follow the money" it leads directly to the oil companies, coal companies and other energy companies?

You're following "less" money, and that's just not that smart.
txmxer
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11/3/2009 8:11 PM

I haven't kept up with this subject as much as I would like, but, this did provoke me to read a bit more.

I'm a proponent of throwing out the junk science against...but, also for. I'm a proponent of acknowledging the weaknesses in climate science, of which there are many. The variables are massive in degree of error. That's where my skepticism comes from.

Separating out the politics, as Nerd seems to think drives my skepticism, I'm skeptical of the accuracy of the science. A lot of fudge words in the scientific debate. Words that allow for error. Can't really help that. There's a ton of stuff we don't know.
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11/3/2009 8:18 PM

txmxer wrote: I haven't kept up with this subject as much as I would like, but, this did provoke me to read a bit more.

I'm a proponent of throwing out the junk science against...but, also for. I'm a proponent of acknowledging the weaknesses in climate science, of which there are many. The variables are massive in degree of error. That's where my skepticism comes from.

Separating out the politics, as Nerd seems to think drives my skepticism, I'm skeptical of the accuracy of the science. A lot of fudge words in the scientific debate. Words that allow for error. Can't really help that. There's a ton of stuff we don't know.

Dude, the funniest part of that? Those words were ADDED by the Bush Administration in climate reports.

I read a whole article about it in Scientific American. The Bush Administration literally took scientific studies that said things like, "Evidence suggests with high probability that global climate change has been effected and will continue to be affected by human activity." And they changed it to things like, "Evidence suggest that global climate change may be affected by some aspects of human activity."

They went through those things with a fine-toothed comb. And you're buying it!

You guys talk about "follow the money". Okay. Follow away.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/feb/02/frontpagenews.climatechange

Scientists offered cash to dispute climate study

Scientists and economists have been offered $10,000 each by a lobby group funded by one of the world's largest oil companies to undermine a major climate change report due to be published today.

Letters sent by the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), an ExxonMobil-funded thinktank with close links to the Bush administration, offered the payments for articles that emphasise the shortcomings of a report from the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).

Travel expenses and additional payments were also offered.

The UN report was written by international experts and is widely regarded as the most comprehensive review yet of climate change science. It will underpin international negotiations on new emissions targets to succeed the Kyoto agreement, the first phase of which expires in 2012. World governments were given a draft last year and invited to comment.

The AEI has received more than $1.6m from ExxonMobil and more than 20 of its staff have worked as consultants to the Bush administration. Lee Raymond, a former head of ExxonMobil, is the vice-chairman of AEI's board of trustees.

The letters, sent to scientists in Britain, the US and elsewhere, attack the UN's panel as "resistant to reasonable criticism and dissent and prone to summary conclusions that are poorly supported by the analytical work" and ask for essays that "thoughtfully explore the limitations of climate model outputs".

Climate scientists described the move yesterday as an attempt to cast doubt over the "overwhelming scientific evidence" on global warming. "It's a desperate attempt by an organisation who wants to distort science for their own political aims," said David Viner of the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia.

"The IPCC process is probably the most thorough and open review undertaken in any discipline. This undermines the confidence of the public in the scientific community and the ability of governments to take on sound scientific advice," he said.

The letters were sent by Kenneth Green, a visiting scholar at AEI, who confirmed that the organisation had approached scientists, economists and policy analysts to write articles for an independent review that would highlight the strengths and weaknesses of the IPCC report.

"Right now, the whole debate is polarised," he said. "One group says that anyone with any doubts whatsoever are deniers and the other group is saying that anyone who wants to take action is alarmist. We don't think that approach has a lot of utility for intelligent policy."

One American scientist turned down the offer, citing fears that the report could easily be misused for political gain. "You wouldn't know if some of the other authors might say nothing's going to happen, that we should ignore it, or that it's not our fault," said Steve Schroeder, a professor at Texas A&M university.

The contents of the IPCC report have been an open secret since the Bush administration posted its draft copy on the internet in April. It says there is a 90% chance that human activity is warming the planet, and that global average temperatures will rise by another 1.5 to 5.8C this century, depending on emissions.

Lord Rees of Ludlow, the president of the Royal Society, Britain's most prestigious scientific institute, said: "The IPCC is the world's leading authority on climate change and its latest report will provide a comprehensive picture of the latest scientific understanding on the issue. It is expected to stress, more convincingly than ever before, that our planet is already warming due to human actions, and that 'business as usual' would lead to unacceptable risks, underscoring the urgent need for concerted international action to reduce the worst impacts of climate change. However, yet again, there will be a vocal minority with their own agendas who will try to suggest otherwise."

Ben Stewart of Greenpeace said: "The AEI is more than just a thinktank, it functions as the Bush administration's intellectual Cosa Nostra. They are White House surrogates in the last throes of their campaign of climate change denial. They lost on the science; they lost on the moral case for action. All they've got left is a suitcase full of cash."

On Monday, another Exxon-funded organisation based in Canada will launch a review in London which casts doubt on the IPCC report. Among its authors are Tad Murty, a former scientist who believes human activity makes no contribution to global warming. Confirmed VIPs attending include Nigel Lawson and David Bellamy, who believes there is no link between burning fossil fuels and global warming.
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11/3/2009 8:21 PM

http://www.webexhibits.org/bush/5.html.

http://www.ucsusa.org/.../climate-change.html
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11/3/2009 10:35 PM

Nerd wrote: How hard is it to get through your head that if you're going to "follow the money" it leads directly to the oil companies, coal companies and other energy companies?

You're following "less" money, and that's just not that smart.

According to Exxon Mobil chief executive Rex Tillerson, the cap and trade nightmare being primed for passage in the Senate doesn’t go far enough – Tillerson wants a direct tax on carbon dioxide emissions, essentially a tax on breathing since we all exhale this life-giving gas.

In a speech last month, Tillerson brazenly called out the cap and trade agenda for what it was, an effort to impose a carbon tax camouflaged only by a slick sales pitch and deceptive rhetoric.

“It is easier and more politically expedient to support a cap-and-trade approach, because the public will never figure out where it is hitting them,” said Tillerson. “They will just know they hurt somewhere in their pocketbook,” he added, pointing out that he disagreed with this convoluted method of introducing a carbon tax, arguing instead that it would be more successful to openly propose a straight carbon tax.

Tillerson firmly expressed Exxon’s support for climate change alarmists in stating, “I firmly believe it is not too late for Congress to consider a carbon tax as the better policy approach for addressing the risks of climate change.”

Exxon’s push for a carbon tax was restated last week by its vice president for public affairs Ken Cohen, who told a conference call that he wants a climate policy that creates “certainty and predictability, which is why we advocate a carbon tax.”

Exxon Mobil and their ilk are not concerned about a carbon tax eating into their profits because they know they won’t have to pay it – the tab will be picked up by the ignorant taxpayer at the fuel pump at an inflated cost which if anything will hand the transnational oil cartels an even bigger cut.

Ideologically, Al Gore and Exxon Mobil are on exactly the same page – the only difference between the oil companies and global warming alarmists is the squabble over who will get to sink their teeth into the taxpayer and reap the dividends of the climate change scam.
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11/3/2009 11:10 PM

Nerd wrote: How hard is it to get through your head that if you're going to "follow the money" it leads directly to the oil companies, coal companies and other energy companies?

You're following "less" money, and that's just not that smart.

Jack Flash wrote: According to Exxon Mobil chief executive Rex Tillerson, the cap and trade nightmare being primed for passage in the Senate doesn’t go far enough – Tillerson wants a direct tax on carbon dioxide emissions, essentially a tax on breathing since we all exhale this life-giving gas.

In a speech last month, Tillerson brazenly called out the cap and trade agenda for what it was, an effort to impose a carbon tax camouflaged only by a slick sales pitch and deceptive rhetoric.

“It is easier and more politically expedient to support a cap-and-trade approach, because the public will never figure out where it is hitting them,” said Tillerson. “They will just know they hurt somewhere in their pocketbook,” he added, pointing out that he disagreed with this convoluted method of introducing a carbon tax, arguing instead that it would be more successful to openly propose a straight carbon tax.

Tillerson firmly expressed Exxon’s support for climate change alarmists in stating, “I firmly believe it is not too late for Congress to consider a carbon tax as the better policy approach for addressing the risks of climate change.”

Exxon’s push for a carbon tax was restated last week by its vice president for public affairs Ken Cohen, who told a conference call that he wants a climate policy that creates “certainty and predictability, which is why we advocate a carbon tax.”

Exxon Mobil and their ilk are not concerned about a carbon tax eating into their profits because they know they won’t have to pay it – the tab will be picked up by the ignorant taxpayer at the fuel pump at an inflated cost which if anything will hand the transnational oil cartels an even bigger cut.

Ideologically, Al Gore and Exxon Mobil are on exactly the same page – the only difference between the oil companies and global warming alarmists is the squabble over who will get to sink their teeth into the taxpayer and reap the dividends of the climate change scam.

It's spin, dude. Why would they offer scientists $10,000 each to contradict a study before it's even released?

They know a carbon tax would never been accepted by the public, so they're pushing for that knowing that it makes them look like they support the effort but that they're just too powerless to do anything about it.

I can't believe you guys don't see through this shit.

And this is another reason why I think we should just nationalize the oil industry. There is no real competition there anyway.
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11/4/2009 6:00 AM

so Nerd...you're using the politics to prove that AGW is real? That's some solid scientific work you are doing there.
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11/4/2009 6:55 AM

Want some taxpayer cash?

Just tell them you are going to do a study on how global warming impacts the migration of the brown footed ground squirrel.



But that's different because you and I pay for it not the big bad oil companies.
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11/4/2009 9:37 AM

txmxer wrote: so Nerd...you're using the politics to prove that AGW is real? That's some solid scientific work you are doing there.

No, I'm returning the same logic. Everyone's saying to follow the money. Well, there you go. Follow it.

And rat, yes that is different because the government doesn't tell you the conclusion they want to hear.
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11/4/2009 10:24 AM

txmxer wrote: so Nerd...you're using the politics to prove that AGW is real? That's some solid scientific work you are doing there.

Nerd wrote: No, I'm returning the same logic. Everyone's saying to follow the money. Well, there you go. Follow it.

And rat, yes that is different because the government doesn't tell you the conclusion they want to hear.

money on one end does not mean there isn't money on the other as well.

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11/4/2009 10:26 AM

txmxer wrote: so Nerd...you're using the politics to prove that AGW is real? That's some solid scientific work you are doing there.

Nerd wrote: No, I'm returning the same logic. Everyone's saying to follow the money. Well, there you go. Follow it.

And rat, yes that is different because the government doesn't tell you the conclusion they want to hear.

txmxer wrote: money on one end does not mean there isn't money on the other as well.

No it doesn't, but compare the amount of money oil/coal/energy companies stand to lose compared to the amount Al Gore stands to gain.
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11/4/2009 10:35 AM

This was on last night.

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11/4/2009 12:38 PM

Here is everyone's HW assignment:

http://www.pbs.org/...m/globalwarming.html

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11/4/2009 9:14 PM

Nerd wrote: No, I'm returning the same logic. Everyone's saying to follow the money. Well, there you go. Follow it.

And rat, yes that is different because the government doesn't tell you the conclusion they want to hear.

txmxer wrote: money on one end does not mean there isn't money on the other as well.

Nerd wrote: No it doesn't, but compare the amount of money oil/coal/energy companies stand to lose compared to the amount Al Gore stands to gain.

Global Warming is not due to human contribution of Carbon Dioxide

by Timothy Ball

Global Warming, as we think we know it, doesn't exist. And I am not the only one trying to make people open up their eyes and see the truth. But few listen, despite the fact that I was the first Canadian Ph.D. in Climatology and I have an extensive background in climatology, especially the reconstruction of past climates and the impact of climate change on human history and the human condition. “Few listen, even though I have a Ph.D, (Doctor of Science) from the University of London, England and was a climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg.” . For some reason (actually for many), the World is not listening. Here is why.

What would happen if tomorrow we were told that, after all, the Earth is flat? It would probably be the most important piece of news in the media and would generate a lot of debate. So why is it that when scientists who have studied the Global Warming phenomenon for years say that humans are not the cause nobody listens? Why does no one acknowledge that the Emperor has no clothes on?

Believe it or not, Global Warming is not due to human contribution of Carbon Dioxide (CO2). This in fact is the greatest deception in the history of science. We are wasting time, energy and trillions of dollars while creating unnecessary fear and consternation over an issue with no scientific justification. For example, Environment Canada brags about spending $3.7 billion in the last five years dealing with climate change almost all on propaganda trying to defend an indefensible scientific position while at the same time closing weather stations and failing to meet legislated pollution targets.

No sensible person seeks conflict, especially with governments, but if we don't pursue the truth, we are lost as individuals and as a society. That is why I insist on saying that there is no evidence that we are, or could ever cause global climate change. And, recently, Yuri A. Izrael, Vice President of the United Nations sponsored Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) confirmed this statement. So how has the world come to believe that something is wrong?

Maybe for the same reason we believed, 30 years ago, that global cooling was the biggest threat: a matter of faith. "It is a cold fact: the Global Cooling presents humankind with the most important social, political, and adaptive challenge we have had to deal with for ten thousand years. Your stake in the decisions we make concerning it is of ultimate importance; the survival of ourselves, our children, our species," wrote Lowell Ponte in 1976.

I was as opposed to the threats of impending doom global cooling engendered as I am to the threats made about Global Warming. Let me stress I am not denying the phenomenon has occurred. The world has warmed since 1680, the nadir of a cool period called the Little Ice Age (LIA) that has generally continued to the present. These climate changes are well within natural variability and explained quite easily by changes in the sun. But there is nothing unusual going on.

Since I obtained my doctorate in climatology from the University of London, Queen Mary College, England my career has spanned two climate cycles.
Temperatures declined from 1940 to 1980 and in the early 1970's global cooling became the consensus. This proves that consensus is not a scientific fact. By the 1990's temperatures appeared to have reversed and Global Warming became the consensus. It appears I'll witness another cycle before retiring, as the major mechanisms and the global temperature trends now indicate a cooling.

No doubt passive acceptance yields less stress, fewer personal attacks and makes career progress easier. What I have experienced in my personal life during the last years makes me understand why most people choose not to speak out; job security and fear of reprisals. Even in University, where free speech and challenge to prevailing wisdoms are supposedly encouraged, academics remain silent.

I once received a three page letter that my lawyer defined as libellous, from an academic colleague, saying I had no right to say what I was saying, especially in public lectures. Sadly, my experience is that universities are the most dogmatic and oppressive places in our society. This becomes progressively worse as they receive more and more funding from governments that demand a particular viewpoint.

In another instance, I was accused by Canadian environmentalist David Suzuki of being paid by oil companies. That is a lie. Apparently he thinks if the fossil fuel companies pay you have an agenda. So if Greenpeace, Sierra Club or governments pay there is no agenda and only truth and enlightenment?

Personal attacks are difficult and shouldn't occur in a debate in a civilized society. I can only consider them from what they imply. They usually indicate a person or group is losing the debate. In this case, they also indicate how political the entire Global Warming debate has become. Both underline the lack of or even contradictory nature of the evidence.

I am not alone in this journey against the prevalent myth. Several well-known names have also raised their voices. Michael Crichton, the scientist, writer and filmmaker is one of them. In his latest book, "State of Fear" he takes time to explain, often in surprising detail, the flawed science behind Global Warming and other imagined environmental crises.

Another cry in the wilderness is Richard Lindzen's. He is an atmospheric physicist and a professor of meteorology at MIT, renowned for his research in dynamic meteorology - especially atmospheric waves. He is also a member of the National Academy of Sciences and has held positions at the University of Chicago, Harvard University and MIT. Linzen frequently speaks out against the notion that significant Global Warming is caused by humans. Yet nobody seems to listen.

I think it may be because most people don't understand the scientific method which Thomas Kuhn so skilfully and briefly set out in his book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions." A scientist makes certain assumptions and then produces a theory which is only as valid as the assumptions. The theory of Global Warming assumes that CO2 is an atmospheric greenhouse gas and as it increases temperatures rise. It was then theorized that since humans were producing more CO2 than before, the temperature would inevitably rise. The theory was accepted before testing had started, and effectively became a law.

As Lindzen said many years ago: "the consensus was reached before the research had even begun." Now, any scientist who dares to question the prevailing wisdom is marginalized and called a sceptic, when in fact they are simply being good scientists. This has reached frightening levels with these scientists now being called climate change denier with all the holocaust connotations of that word. The normal scientific method is effectively being thwarted.

Meanwhile, politicians are being listened to, even though most of them have no knowledge or understanding of science, especially the science of climate and climate change. Hence, they are in no position to question a policy on climate change when it threatens the entire planet. Moreover, using fear and creating hysteria makes it very difficult to make calm rational decisions about issues needing attention.

Until you have challenged the prevailing wisdom you have no idea how nasty people can be. Until you have re-examined any issue in an attempt to find out all the information, you cannot know how much misinformation exists in the supposed age of information.

I was greatly influenced several years ago by Aaron Wildavsky's book "Yes, but is it true?" The author taught political science at a New York University and realized how science was being influenced by and apparently misused by politics. He gave his graduate students an assignment to pursue the science behind a policy generated by a highly publicised environmental concern. To his and their surprise they found there was little scientific evidence, consensus and justification for the policy. You only realize the extent to which Wildavsky's findings occur when you ask the question he posed. Wildavsky's students did it in the safety of academia and with the excuse that it was an assignment. I have learned it is a difficult question to ask in the real world, however I firmly believe it is the most important question to ask if we are to advance in the right direction.


Dr. Tim Ball, Chairman of the Natural Resources Stewardship Project (www.nrsp.com), is a Victoria-based environmental consultant and former climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg. He can be reached at letters@canadafreepress.com

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11/4/2009 9:21 PM

Nerd wrote: No, I'm returning the same logic. Everyone's saying to follow the money. Well, there you go. Follow it.

And rat, yes that is different because the government doesn't tell you the conclusion they want to hear.

txmxer wrote: money on one end does not mean there isn't money on the other as well.

Nerd wrote: No it doesn't, but compare the amount of money oil/coal/energy companies stand to lose compared to the amount Al Gore stands to gain.

Al Gore stands to gain? that's all????? no one else stands to gain?




your purposeful misstatement effectively concedes your argument


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11/5/2009 11:30 PM

txmxer wrote: money on one end does not mean there isn't money on the other as well.

Nerd wrote: No it doesn't, but compare the amount of money oil/coal/energy companies stand to lose compared to the amount Al Gore stands to gain.

CR250Rider wrote: Al Gore stands to gain? that's all????? no one else stands to gain?




your purposeful misstatement effectively concedes your argument


Al Gore, people like Al Gore, etc. Compare all of them to the oil, coal and energy companies and see how close you get.

Good luck.

And remember, I wasn't the one saying to "follow the money".
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11/6/2009 12:26 AM

Nerd wrote: Al Gore, people like Al Gore, etc. Compare all of them to the oil, coal and energy companies and see how close you get.

Good luck.

And remember, I wasn't the one saying to "follow the money".

Pretty funny how the Gore family made their money from a coal company.

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