The dangers of falsified science.

the_wood109
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Edited Date/Time 2/7/2015 5:13pm
This shows the results of the falsified claim that immunizations are bad. The results are in. Immunization is a good thing and doesn't pose any known dangers to children. Even if they did, the benefits far outweigh the risks.

Article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/01/22/the-devastat…



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JPT
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1/23/2015 4:00pm
The anti vaccine people seem to forget the actual birth defects caused by pregnant women catching measles. Or the kids in iron lungs with polio or what mumps do to adult men. These things were happening when I was a kid. When vaccines became available my parents didn't hesitate. When I had kids I didn't either.
Hgibbs566
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1/23/2015 4:42pm Edited Date/Time 1/23/2015 4:43pm
I credit all these news organizations with instilling the idea that correlation equals causation when it does not and never will.
500guy
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1/23/2015 6:11pm
JPT wrote:
The anti vaccine people seem to forget the actual birth defects caused by pregnant women catching measles. Or the kids in iron lungs with polio or...
The anti vaccine people seem to forget the actual birth defects caused by pregnant women catching measles. Or the kids in iron lungs with polio or what mumps do to adult men. These things were happening when I was a kid. When vaccines became available my parents didn't hesitate. When I had kids I didn't either.
My Uncle Had Polio, yea we were first in line to get Vaccinated.

Some of these flu shots and other things I'm a little Leary of, I know some people might need them but I think they over sell them and try to scare people.

The Shop

1/23/2015 6:28pm
It would be nice if the author of the article could point to a recent increase in anti-vaccine propaganda to make a sturdier correlation claim. Nevertheless, a few years ago I became cautiously pro-vaccine after reading information like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy

I say cautiously because I have seen so many blatant lies stated as fact in the media and the internet at large, it is hard to know who is being truthful. I have personally performed exactly zero studies on the health effects of vaccines, so I have to take a chance and believe one side or the other. The pro-vaccine side seems more credible to me.
the_wood109
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1/23/2015 7:05pm Edited Date/Time 1/23/2015 7:16pm
The propaganda is only one factor. There is actually a known causation effect behind that, which is why I constantly talk about atheism.

The deciding factor is effectiveness. Even then, a 100% truth claim is impossible. We do have a pretty clear indication of what works and what doesn't. It's the best we can do as humans, if you have something that produces a better result, please do share.

Until then, I'm going with medical science. I will also say that faith healing or anything based on the bible is straight up child abuse. Then again, you know it is.

Edit: The chart came from the center for disease control.
the_wood109
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1/23/2015 7:22pm
And here is the point where it would be beneficial to learn some modern philosophy. After that, look into modern science. Lastly, I never claimed it was a one stop ride to truth. I have claimed that science is the best methodology we currently have for finding truth. I didn't say that none better will ever exist, I've said that science is currently the best. Now if you were up on current philosophy, you would realize that induction is not a problem for anyone, and solipsism is irrelevant.
the_wood109
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1/23/2015 7:58pm Edited Date/Time 1/23/2015 8:02pm
It would be impossible to survey all there is to say about truth in any coherent way. Instead, this essay will concentrate on the main themes in the study of truth in the contemporary philosophical literature.

That sounds like a damn fine justification for induction. No?

Okay let's go with the philosophy 101 course on deduction

1) Gay men exist

2) Keyboard warrior is a man.

3) Therefore keyboard warrior is a gay man.

This is a sound philosophical argument. The conclusion logically follows. It is the same basis that any apologist uses to justify their own arguments for god. The problem? Well first of all, is it true? If not, is there any way to correct it without some inductive argument? Not that I'm aware of.

I'm certainly not confusing methodology with truth. I'm pointing out that your perspective is looking for absolute truth, which is unreasonable. Especially when you seek to discredit inductive reasoning as a whole. It is just silly to even suggest that, because in order to demonstrate that claim, you would have to discredit every single scientific discovery ever made. Science is the epitome of induction. You are the reason why people really don't like philosophy. People just blowing hot air with nothing but disregard for objective reality.

You jump back and forth between the history of philosphy, manipulate definitions, and obviously have an object for doing so...not that you've stated it yet, but it's there. Apologists are the only philosophy buffs that use the arguments that you use.

1/23/2015 8:37pm
The propaganda is only one factor. There is actually a known causation effect behind that, which is why I constantly talk about atheism. The deciding factor...
The propaganda is only one factor. There is actually a known causation effect behind that, which is why I constantly talk about atheism.

The deciding factor is effectiveness. Even then, a 100% truth claim is impossible. We do have a pretty clear indication of what works and what doesn't. It's the best we can do as humans, if you have something that produces a better result, please do share.

Until then, I'm going with medical science. I will also say that faith healing or anything based on the bible is straight up child abuse. Then again, you know it is.

Edit: The chart came from the center for disease control.
Yup, I wasn't doubting the accuracy of the chart.

If it were me writing that Washington Post article, I would have stopped short of pointing to the 2014 spike as an impact of vaccine deniers unless I could show, for example, that the National Association of Vaccine Deniers were extra active in January 2014. With no evidence that vaccine denial was any different in 2014 than it was in 2013, I would be afraid that by implying a correlation I would get nailed for overstating my case.

IN ANY CASE - that is nit picking, I don't disagree with the essence of your post - if I didn't already have 5 reflective minutes invested in this post, I wouldn't click Submit. Have fun quarreling you guys, g'night.
the_wood109
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1/23/2015 8:48pm
Well the chart also points to a pretty clear trend. There doesn't need to be a specified group of deniers to understand the rise in positive cases. This is as close to black and white as you can get. Unless all other scientists are purposely withholding data. It's an exponential growth, which is pretty much what you would expect.

I understand you agree with me, I'm just curious about the wording of the previous post. It sounded like you may have thought at one time that immunizations were bad. IMO, it wasn't the science that mislead people, it was the celebrity aspect.
enketchum
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1/24/2015 12:48am Edited Date/Time 1/24/2015 12:48am
People who drowned after falling out of a fishing boat
correlates with
Marriage rate in Kentucky



Correlation: 0.952407 (this is extremely high if you know about stats)
the_wood109
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1/24/2015 8:49am Edited Date/Time 1/24/2015 8:50am
I see your point, but I think that is a bad comparison in this case. We know that measles vaccinations are effective at eliminating the spread of measles. The article isn't attempting to correlate something that may or may not be a cause. Yes, correlation doesn't necessarily equate to causation, but it can. In this case it does. It's been demonstrated that vaccinations are reduce or eliminate infections.

And warrior, you are basically saying that I misused the word sound. Okay, fine. The point still stands and I'll be waiting for you to prove every single scientific discovery wrong in order to make the case that induction is unreliable.
Hgibbs566
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1/24/2015 9:58am
enketchum wrote:
[b]People who drowned after falling out of a fishing boat[/b] correlates with [b]Marriage rate in Kentucky[/b] [img]https://i.imgur.com/wn53pb1.png[/img] Correlation: 0.952407 (this is extremely high if you know...
People who drowned after falling out of a fishing boat
correlates with
Marriage rate in Kentucky



Correlation: 0.952407 (this is extremely high if you know about stats)
If you understood statistics, you'd know that correlation does not imply causation.
You'd need to run a different test to calculate the relationship such as a Granger Casuality Test, Convergent Cross mapping etc etc.
Hgibbs566
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1/24/2015 10:36am
It's hard to tell.
He took the correlation between intelligence and iPhone owners joke I posted pretty hard.
the_wood109
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1/24/2015 12:10pm
You claimed I needed to take a philo 101 course, and then preceded to provide a categorical syllogism that is not only not sound, but since the first two premises are true and the conclusion false, it isn't even valid!

This proves that you both get the point and miss the point at the same time. How do you determine if and/or any claim is valid and/or sound? How about evidence? Can you demonstrate the conclusion is false, aside from simply asserting that you aren't gay?

Also, I did not say that induction is unreliable, I said that it cannot be rationally justified because it begs the question.

It cannot be rationally justified, but it produces results that become more and more reliable over time. This is a claim that is demonstrably true, by any definition you want to use of truth. So, why would I give a single fuck about your rationality if I can demonstrate that you are wrong? This is an example of you using poor philosophy.

You like to throw around science a lot on these forums and take your attacks on religion as if science points us to this mysterious thing you call truth.

It does point us to truth. It's not a point A to B journey, but science has completely destroyed religion in terms of any objective truth. Your plan here is to basically argue semantics until people simply forget the importance of evidence and objective verifiability. It's something that is expected from an apologist driven by outdated philosophy, but it is pretty ineffective.
JW381
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1/25/2015 8:19am
I've kind of enjoyed reading your guy's little spat. No one can accuse you of being illogical haha
borg
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1/25/2015 9:10am
The propaganda is only one factor. There is actually a known causation effect behind that, which is why I constantly talk about atheism. The deciding factor...
The propaganda is only one factor. There is actually a known causation effect behind that, which is why I constantly talk about atheism.

The deciding factor is effectiveness. Even then, a 100% truth claim is impossible. We do have a pretty clear indication of what works and what doesn't. It's the best we can do as humans, if you have something that produces a better result, please do share.

Until then, I'm going with medical science. I will also say that faith healing or anything based on the bible is straight up child abuse. Then again, you know it is.

Edit: The chart came from the center for disease control.
Yup, I wasn't doubting the accuracy of the chart. If it were me writing that Washington Post article, I would have stopped short of pointing to...
Yup, I wasn't doubting the accuracy of the chart.

If it were me writing that Washington Post article, I would have stopped short of pointing to the 2014 spike as an impact of vaccine deniers unless I could show, for example, that the National Association of Vaccine Deniers were extra active in January 2014. With no evidence that vaccine denial was any different in 2014 than it was in 2013, I would be afraid that by implying a correlation I would get nailed for overstating my case.

IN ANY CASE - that is nit picking, I don't disagree with the essence of your post - if I didn't already have 5 reflective minutes invested in this post, I wouldn't click Submit. Have fun quarreling you guys, g'night.
The story behind the chart is the product of a commercial, profit driven entity. There is no real reason to expect that they would delve into the necessary research to prove their conclusion that VD's are responsible for the increase. I normally take conclusions like these with a grain of salt, especially from the modern media. If it were important to me to know for sure, I would do my own research such as going to the CDC site to look for the data that the reporter used to claim that the vast majority of new cases were of unvaccinated people. If it's true then the conclusion is probably correct. I'm buying it out of personal expediency which means I don't care enough to spend time digging any deeper. I'm not up on psych so I don't know if that means my accepting it is deductive, inductive or laziness.
bronwynrayne
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1/26/2015 10:34pm Edited Date/Time 1/26/2015 10:35pm
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics. Even if you win you're still retarded.

There needs to be a great deal of thought given to the profits behind vaccinations and the drug industry, and think about the influences these have on charts or any other kinds of studies that are endorsed by the media. Things that happen behind closed doors are hard to stomach but they are a reality. There is a danger in falsified studies aswell.

We have a strong dairy industry in Canada and massive taxes on dairy aswell. There were studies being conducted at major universities finding negative side-effects to the consumption of dairy, and their funding was pulled because of those findings.

Whistling
IWreckALot
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1/27/2015 5:31am
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics. Even if you win you're still retarded. There needs to be a great deal of...
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics. Even if you win you're still retarded.

There needs to be a great deal of thought given to the profits behind vaccinations and the drug industry, and think about the influences these have on charts or any other kinds of studies that are endorsed by the media. Things that happen behind closed doors are hard to stomach but they are a reality. There is a danger in falsified studies aswell.

We have a strong dairy industry in Canada and massive taxes on dairy aswell. There were studies being conducted at major universities finding negative side-effects to the consumption of dairy, and their funding was pulled because of those findings.

Whistling
There lies my biggest problem with the medical industry. In a perfect world, the medical industry would be 100% about finding the healthiest ways to deal with problems. But the medical industry has turned into a prescription pad instead.

For example, why push dairy on to consumers if dairy is in fact bad for you. Maybe it isn't even all bad for you but it has as many benefits as negative side effects. Why not EDUCATE the consumer rather than try to push a product on them when it comes to health. Let the consumer decide for themselves.

It is really difficult to determine what is a legit medical enhancement vs. what is a marketing strategy with minimal medicinal purpose.
wildbill
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1/27/2015 8:04am
Unfortunately, we cannot achieve spiritual awareness with the intellectual mind.
the_wood109
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1/27/2015 5:08pm
wildbill wrote:
Unfortunately, we cannot achieve spiritual awareness with the intellectual mind.
What exactly is do you mean by "spiritual awareness?"
wildbill
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1/27/2015 10:47pm
wildbill wrote:
Unfortunately, we cannot achieve spiritual awareness with the intellectual mind.
What exactly is do you mean by "spiritual awareness?"
For me, it's nothing more than intuition with a large dose of love. Myers Briggs type classification of the different temperaments is a good way to test for the traits. Social Science found some validity in it. The test is rather comprehensive but revealing nevertheless.

www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp







wildbill
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1/27/2015 11:02pm Edited Date/Time 1/27/2015 11:15pm
CR250Rider wrote:
I love haters
I'm just fucking around with woody. He's a brilliant debater and keeps his mind open and actually admits when he learns something. I enjoy my Science degree too. I better, since I haven't quite paid it off yet. Smile
borg
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1/28/2015 6:21am
wildbill wrote:
Unfortunately, we cannot achieve spiritual awareness with the intellectual mind.
What exactly is do you mean by "spiritual awareness?"
wildbill wrote:
For me, it's nothing more than intuition with a large dose of love. Myers Briggs type classification of the different temperaments is a good way to...
For me, it's nothing more than intuition with a large dose of love. Myers Briggs type classification of the different temperaments is a good way to test for the traits. Social Science found some validity in it. The test is rather comprehensive but revealing nevertheless.

www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp







Tests like that are fun but are easily sabotaged, either on purpose or simply by people really not knowing themselves as well as they think they do. Since you seem to like to dabble in this stuff, do you know of a good test for how well a person judges his own character and tendencies? I took one many years ago while working for a small company and was surprised by the results graph. Not so much about my own results but by how poorly so many others scored.
kev472
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1/28/2015 7:02am
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics. Even if you win you're still retarded. There needs to be a great deal of...
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics. Even if you win you're still retarded.

There needs to be a great deal of thought given to the profits behind vaccinations and the drug industry, and think about the influences these have on charts or any other kinds of studies that are endorsed by the media. Things that happen behind closed doors are hard to stomach but they are a reality. There is a danger in falsified studies aswell.

We have a strong dairy industry in Canada and massive taxes on dairy aswell. There were studies being conducted at major universities finding negative side-effects to the consumption of dairy, and their funding was pulled because of those findings.

Whistling
IWreckALot wrote:
There lies my biggest problem with the medical industry. In a perfect world, the medical industry would be 100% about finding the healthiest ways to deal...
There lies my biggest problem with the medical industry. In a perfect world, the medical industry would be 100% about finding the healthiest ways to deal with problems. But the medical industry has turned into a prescription pad instead.

For example, why push dairy on to consumers if dairy is in fact bad for you. Maybe it isn't even all bad for you but it has as many benefits as negative side effects. Why not EDUCATE the consumer rather than try to push a product on them when it comes to health. Let the consumer decide for themselves.

It is really difficult to determine what is a legit medical enhancement vs. what is a marketing strategy with minimal medicinal purpose.

Any food/nutrient can be bad for you

Too much H2O is toxic
Too much vitamin c is toxic
Too much sugar is toxic

Pretty much every nutrient has an LD50 dosage
You can look it up, it's all about dosage

LD50 is the dosage at which a substance becomes lethal for 50% of the population

Should be stop consuming water?
Should we stop consuming vitamin c? I mean it's toxic correct?

I'm sure that unless your lactose intolerant, dairy has more benefits than it has negatieve effects
I would provide some studies but I don't have the time

Eat organic and avoid the chemicals, JOKE



wildbill
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1/28/2015 9:54am Edited Date/Time 1/28/2015 11:05am
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics. Even if you win you're still retarded. There needs to be a great deal of...
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics. Even if you win you're still retarded.

There needs to be a great deal of thought given to the profits behind vaccinations and the drug industry, and think about the influences these have on charts or any other kinds of studies that are endorsed by the media. Things that happen behind closed doors are hard to stomach but they are a reality. There is a danger in falsified studies aswell.

We have a strong dairy industry in Canada and massive taxes on dairy aswell. There were studies being conducted at major universities finding negative side-effects to the consumption of dairy, and their funding was pulled because of those findings.

Whistling
IWreckALot wrote:
There lies my biggest problem with the medical industry. In a perfect world, the medical industry would be 100% about finding the healthiest ways to deal...
There lies my biggest problem with the medical industry. In a perfect world, the medical industry would be 100% about finding the healthiest ways to deal with problems. But the medical industry has turned into a prescription pad instead.

For example, why push dairy on to consumers if dairy is in fact bad for you. Maybe it isn't even all bad for you but it has as many benefits as negative side effects. Why not EDUCATE the consumer rather than try to push a product on them when it comes to health. Let the consumer decide for themselves.

It is really difficult to determine what is a legit medical enhancement vs. what is a marketing strategy with minimal medicinal purpose.
kev472 wrote:
Any food/nutrient can be bad for you Too much H2O is toxic Too much vitamin c is toxic Too much sugar is toxic Pretty much every...

Any food/nutrient can be bad for you

Too much H2O is toxic
Too much vitamin c is toxic
Too much sugar is toxic

Pretty much every nutrient has an LD50 dosage
You can look it up, it's all about dosage

LD50 is the dosage at which a substance becomes lethal for 50% of the population

Should be stop consuming water?
Should we stop consuming vitamin c? I mean it's toxic correct?

I'm sure that unless your lactose intolerant, dairy has more benefits than it has negatieve effects
I would provide some studies but I don't have the time

Eat organic and avoid the chemicals, JOKE



Try Keirsey Temperament sorter. He wrote a few books that expanded on the MBTT.

Science can't adequately explain consciousness, let alone higher consciousness.

Whoops: wrong quote, for borg.
Homey55
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1/28/2015 10:07am Edited Date/Time 1/28/2015 10:07am
OP...In that chart you posted, how many people that contracted Measles were vaccinated? The disney outbreak is showing 20% of the people infected were completely vaccinated.

The media is really playing up "anti-vaxx" people in the last few months. The reaction to Measles has been worse than Ebola! There was a Measles case in San Diego recently that caused a clinic to immediately shut down and quarantine people who visited for 21 days. This was a better response than the Ebola outbreak we were having a couple months ago.

This article http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/california-measles-outbreak-is-up-to-87-cases-in-7-states-mexico/ar-AA8CkOx even suggests staying away from Farmer's Markets.

This recent push for vaccines seems fishy to me. I think we're all educated enough to make our own decisions as well.

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