Tar Sands

Rooster
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3/9/2012 7:41pm
You should see the areas that have been returned to nature already. They're pristine.

Ever checked out your own open pit coal mines, and the mountain topping mining you're doing in your own country?
TerryK
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3/9/2012 7:59pm
Since we are the number one supplier to crude oil to the US, what do YOU think of it? Tongue
TerryK
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3/9/2012 8:01pm
Rooster wrote:
You should see the areas that have been returned to nature already. They're pristine. Ever checked out your own open pit coal mines, and the mountain...
You should see the areas that have been returned to nature already. They're pristine.

Ever checked out your own open pit coal mines, and the mountain topping mining you're doing in your own country?
Pristine on the surface. All that waste water and the chemicals used processing is a huge issue. Remember the bird kill last year?
mtnr
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3/9/2012 8:06pm
No haven't scene them, that is why I was asking. Was just in BC for 3 weeks, but not over in Alberta. Where do you look to see a reclamation of an area already done?

The Shop

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3/9/2012 8:33pm
mtnr wrote:
No haven't scene them, that is why I was asking. Was just in BC for 3 weeks, but not over in Alberta. Where do you look...
No haven't scene them, that is why I was asking. Was just in BC for 3 weeks, but not over in Alberta. Where do you look to see a reclamation of an area already done?
BC is a rainforest, and very much unlike the boreal forests of Alberta. If you're thinking we're destroying a rain forest like in B.C. here in Alberta it's simply not the same.

Rooster
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3/9/2012 8:53pm
TerryK wrote:
Pristine on the surface. All that waste water and the chemicals used processing is a huge issue. Remember the bird kill last year?
How many birds are killed at your local airport every year? Birds are also killed in quite large numbers by windfarms too. They have extensive deterrent systems to prevent birds from landing in or near the tailing ponds. Unfortunately it happened..... once.

The wastewater is kept in tailing ponds to prevent having to use water from and then dump it back into the Athabasca river. They're highly effective at what they do and are cleaned during the reclamation process. They're also an older technology and will be used less in the future.

It's not like the water table in that area was great to begin with. The ground is full of tar and leaches oil into the water table naturally. They discovered the oil sands when the first explorers noticed the sheen of oil on the shores of the Athabasca river as they went down it for the first time. It was polluted naturally before man ever set foot there.

They use more fresh water and solvents for fracking gas and oil wells now with far less monitoring and oversight. With the number of fracking wells and the way they're spread out there's now way they can keep a handle on what they're doing to the water supply in much more populated areas and much closer to sensitive and critical watersheds that we rely on for our drinking water.

I know guys who work in the oil patch and have clients who are responsible for tailing pond maintenance. It's not like you're told by the environmental groups. It might have been 40-50 years ago when the oil sands were very small and we didn't have either the awareness or the technology in use today. Keeping the environment clean is just as important a job up there as getting the oil out of the sand. The oil companies know that if they slack off now they'll pay a higher price later, because they're on the hook to return the area to how it was before they got there. Just without all the oil stuck in the sand.
mtnr
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3/9/2012 8:53pm Edited Date/Time 3/10/2012 10:29am
I know the area, not including where the tar sands are very well, so no, of course I don't think its in the rainforests.... That's why I was asking. Been climbing ice, kayaking, skiing, riding touring motorcylces in BC / Alberta for 25 years, just in the mountains though. No need to be so touchy. Your usually the level headed one here. Wink Interesting video. I have run sections of the Athabasca by Jasper, was there in January, then I was in Smithers and was back country skiing and was thinking about it for whatever reason. Then did the searches and found what I figured I would and thought I would ask for a first hand account. You been out to reclaimed areas? The video I imagine is biased based on who produced it. And yes, I grew up way back when racing in PA often so I have seen many coal mines and the water damage that has resulted. So you ever go out to the reclamation areas. How old are they?
Rooster
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3/9/2012 9:45pm
Some are over 15 years old. The area that the oil sands cover is vast, but very little of it is mined open pit style. The rest will be extracted using steam assisted in-situ mining, where steam is injected into the ground to melt the bitumen to the point it can be pumped out. It has a far lesser impact on the surface than the open pit method, but uses more water and natural gas (to heat the water).

The actual amount of area that's been mined open pit style is about 715 square kilometers and so far about 71 square kilometers have been marked as reclaimed. There's more in process, but until many years have passed and the area checks out, the area isn't considered reclaimed.

Most maps only show the total area that the oil sands deposits cover. The actual area that's surface minable is quite small. Currently less than 1% of the oil sands have been surface mined and the area that's surface minable only accounts for 3.4% of the deposit.



I'm not touchy about it. I'm just tired of seeing so much wrong information being passed around about how it's the end of the world as we know it if it's developed. The actual emissions and pollution go down each year, but the expansion obviously creates more of it. The key is to manage it properly as it's developed and do what we can to reduce the impact. It's not like the big bad oil companies are sitting on their hands. The government won't let them. Believe me. We know the world is watching us. Much more than they're paying attention to their own back yard it seems.

Take a look at how bad Canada and the oil sands really are in comparison to the rest of the world when it comes to greenhouse gas emissions:
mtnr
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3/9/2012 10:29pm Edited Date/Time 3/10/2012 10:29am
So not trying to be a douche and yes I am going to burn more gas than most on this board this year soley for the purpose of having a good time recreating , not including work - and that is some stiff competition, but 15 years is not enough time for a boreal forested area to become pristine as you said above and more importantly, my question is have you seen one for yourself. All the images I see googling are gnarly and the tailing lakes draining into the water table eventually I would imagine, that go into the Slave and Mackenzie, seem to not be controllable long term.Lot of heavy metal cancer causing crap in that water. Just thought it was a shame. That's all, don't worry my opinion that such a nice area is going to be affected by our desire to live the way we do is not going to get in the way of anything. Just looking for some first hand info on the reclaimed areas.

It is quite a thing and you guys are flush. So have you seen one?
TerryK
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3/10/2012 5:51am
Rooster: Dude, they have you fooled just like many other Canadians. They are doing a decent job with the environmental issues there, but it's not all flowers and puppies. I know literally at least 50 people working up there (and I've been there as well) and it is an unbelievably huge project thats doing unbelievably bad things to the environment. All the propaganda they spew is understandable considering the oil patch is one of the largest industries in the country. The huge dollar figures involved can and will influence what the media puts out. More than one environmentalist has been bought out up there.
Rooster
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3/10/2012 2:23pm
Hey Terry, I'm not trying to say it's clean as a whistle, but what are the other options? You want to drill offshore perhaps?



It's all about perspective and balance. Maybe you can weave me a front fender out of switchgrass and find a way to ship it to me without burning a drop of oil.

Mining is an ugly business. Whether it's coal, nickle, uranium, gold, copper or oil sands. Should we shut everything down? Do you think that the oil sands are like the wild west with no oversight or regulation where everybody just drains their used motor oil down the kitchen sink and the favorite pastime is puppy torture?

The fact is we need the oil. The argument should be, how can we do it better, or reduce our need for it. Not, it's bad, so shut it down. The areas being fracked in the US are just as large as the oil sands, and the process is just as dirty and it is much closer to areas densely populated and is having a greater affect on the water table for more people. Do we boycott fracked natural gas and oil? Why not? Where's the outrage? Why the focus on one project?

There's lots of crappy things we're doing to the planet, and the oils sands have somehow become the sole focus of people's anger. Look at your own backyard and see what Ontario has done to the Sudbury region. Where's the calls to shut down the mining and the smelters that have turned the region into a moonscape and polluted thousands of lakes and rivers?

An industrialized society is a dirty business. Unless we want to go back to an agrarian society, the best we can hope to do is manage our impact as best as possible. Maybe more focus on stewardship is what's required. Is it bad, yeah. Is it as bad as it could be? No. Is it as bad as it's made out to be? Not from what I've seen and heard. We're doing the best job that we can to manage the resource and reduce the impact.

I'm just a realist who understands that our society depends on oil and our country's economy is based on resource extraction. Whether it's the oil sands in Alberta, mining and smelting in Ontario, offshore oil and smelting in Newfoundland, lumber in B.C., hydroelectric in Quebecor or coal in the maritimes.

There's many ways we could all personally sacrifice and things we could change that could eliminate the impact of extracting oil from the sands in Alberta. Stop burning coal for electric power. Stop building cars with internal combustion engines. Use geothermal heat for our homes. These are all things we can do now that would have a massive impact, but they require additional expense and personal sacrifice. And not one of them will address the fact that even if we stopped using oil to power our cars and trains and other stuff, we'd still need it for things like fertilizer and plastics and chemicals and we don't have enough to go around.

If you have a better way, then by all means tell the world about it. Put your money and manpower behind it. Right now, we're doing the best we can. There's cleaner methods being developed all the time. For the time being though, we have a resource that we require and we're running out of the traditionally (somewhat) cleaner sources of it. Maybe in the future we'll all be bitching about the iron mining and steel manufacturing we're doing to build windmills and the toll the windmills are taking on the local birds. There will always be something to bitch about. Just use a little reason and perspective and think about your own impact. We're all part of the problem, but pointing fingers at one area does nothing to find a solution. It might make you feel a little more self-righteous because you oppose it, but your actions fuel the demand for it.

The effective change will come from a reduced demand for the resource, not the elimination of it's supply from one area. If you think the oil sands are bad, what will happen when they've become the cleanest source we have left for oil?

What have you personally done to reduce your consumption? Me, I've moved my business into my home. I spend less than a quarter of what I did on gas without having to commute to work. I don't have to heat a separate building to work in. I share the resources of my home with my business. My footprint has been greatly reduced through a few small personal actions. I'm not some sort of drill baby drill, or global warming is a myth kind of guy. As I said before, I'm just a realist trying to find balance and do what I can personally. You can see what your actions are causing. What are you doing to reduce your impact and the overall demand for the product you seem to despise? How have you found a way to use less of it, or do you think that your vocal opposition will have the same affect as a change in your behaviour?

Complain all you want. See how much good it does compared to actually doing something about how much you use. Canada didn't pull out of Kyoto because of the oil sands. We pulled out because we're addicted to our cars and motorcycles and heating our homes with natural gas and fuelling our generators with coal. The problem is consumption, not extraction.
3/10/2012 4:17pm
Rooster wrote:
Hey Terry, I'm not trying to say it's clean as a whistle, but what are the other options? You want to drill offshore perhaps? [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/users/3328/photos/56585/s1600_Oil_Sands_Size.jpg?1331410008[/img] It's...
Hey Terry, I'm not trying to say it's clean as a whistle, but what are the other options? You want to drill offshore perhaps?



It's all about perspective and balance. Maybe you can weave me a front fender out of switchgrass and find a way to ship it to me without burning a drop of oil.

Mining is an ugly business. Whether it's coal, nickle, uranium, gold, copper or oil sands. Should we shut everything down? Do you think that the oil sands are like the wild west with no oversight or regulation where everybody just drains their used motor oil down the kitchen sink and the favorite pastime is puppy torture?

The fact is we need the oil. The argument should be, how can we do it better, or reduce our need for it. Not, it's bad, so shut it down. The areas being fracked in the US are just as large as the oil sands, and the process is just as dirty and it is much closer to areas densely populated and is having a greater affect on the water table for more people. Do we boycott fracked natural gas and oil? Why not? Where's the outrage? Why the focus on one project?

There's lots of crappy things we're doing to the planet, and the oils sands have somehow become the sole focus of people's anger. Look at your own backyard and see what Ontario has done to the Sudbury region. Where's the calls to shut down the mining and the smelters that have turned the region into a moonscape and polluted thousands of lakes and rivers?

An industrialized society is a dirty business. Unless we want to go back to an agrarian society, the best we can hope to do is manage our impact as best as possible. Maybe more focus on stewardship is what's required. Is it bad, yeah. Is it as bad as it could be? No. Is it as bad as it's made out to be? Not from what I've seen and heard. We're doing the best job that we can to manage the resource and reduce the impact.

I'm just a realist who understands that our society depends on oil and our country's economy is based on resource extraction. Whether it's the oil sands in Alberta, mining and smelting in Ontario, offshore oil and smelting in Newfoundland, lumber in B.C., hydroelectric in Quebecor or coal in the maritimes.

There's many ways we could all personally sacrifice and things we could change that could eliminate the impact of extracting oil from the sands in Alberta. Stop burning coal for electric power. Stop building cars with internal combustion engines. Use geothermal heat for our homes. These are all things we can do now that would have a massive impact, but they require additional expense and personal sacrifice. And not one of them will address the fact that even if we stopped using oil to power our cars and trains and other stuff, we'd still need it for things like fertilizer and plastics and chemicals and we don't have enough to go around.

If you have a better way, then by all means tell the world about it. Put your money and manpower behind it. Right now, we're doing the best we can. There's cleaner methods being developed all the time. For the time being though, we have a resource that we require and we're running out of the traditionally (somewhat) cleaner sources of it. Maybe in the future we'll all be bitching about the iron mining and steel manufacturing we're doing to build windmills and the toll the windmills are taking on the local birds. There will always be something to bitch about. Just use a little reason and perspective and think about your own impact. We're all part of the problem, but pointing fingers at one area does nothing to find a solution. It might make you feel a little more self-righteous because you oppose it, but your actions fuel the demand for it.

The effective change will come from a reduced demand for the resource, not the elimination of it's supply from one area. If you think the oil sands are bad, what will happen when they've become the cleanest source we have left for oil?

What have you personally done to reduce your consumption? Me, I've moved my business into my home. I spend less than a quarter of what I did on gas without having to commute to work. I don't have to heat a separate building to work in. I share the resources of my home with my business. My footprint has been greatly reduced through a few small personal actions. I'm not some sort of drill baby drill, or global warming is a myth kind of guy. As I said before, I'm just a realist trying to find balance and do what I can personally. You can see what your actions are causing. What are you doing to reduce your impact and the overall demand for the product you seem to despise? How have you found a way to use less of it, or do you think that your vocal opposition will have the same affect as a change in your behaviour?

Complain all you want. See how much good it does compared to actually doing something about how much you use. Canada didn't pull out of Kyoto because of the oil sands. We pulled out because we're addicted to our cars and motorcycles and heating our homes with natural gas and fuelling our generators with coal. The problem is consumption, not extraction.
Rooster, that was very eloquently spoken sir. My respects.

TerryK, you make some good points as well. I happen to be in a fairly senior managment position in a Canadian Oil and Gas company. Its surprising to me how hard my company, and MOST of our competitors are trying to find ways to recover the oil, and do it in the most responsible manner. I will support what rooster said, and make note that the Manufacturing and Auto industry in Eastern Canada is actually one of the biggest hits to the Canadian Green House gas emissions. And, they have done more polluting than we will probably ever do. Especially now with the super strict flaring regulations, and with the lean burn compressor engines, etc. The regulatory bodies for the manufacturing industry have huge strides to make as well.

I like what Terrys point is though, in that we ALL need to be more responsible in how we industrialize. We are simply borrowing this earth from our kids and thier kids. Thats probably the thing we all need to remember the most.

In the horizontal well fracking process, there is too much fresh water being used. It becomes super expensive to recover produced water for the Fracs, but man its one thing that everyone is working hard to find a solution to. There is only so much fresh water, and we need to conserve it.

As long as there is people needing oil and energy, there will be someone to produce it. Hopefully we can do it so that my grandkids one day will be able to enjoy this big ole' ball of mud we call home.
3/12/2012 4:59am
How much fresh water is used to produce a gallon of ethanol as opposed to a gallon of gas from tarsands?
Titan1
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3/12/2012 1:33pm
Rooster gets it! I agree with him 100%.

As long as humans want to maintain this industrialized, modernized society that we all (from the most radical and extreme environmentalist, to the tar sands CEO who cares more about his checking account balance that the environment) enjoy...the environment is going to get hammered. And it doesn't matter where we get our energy from (even solar and wind energy isn't "clean"....cleaner, but not clean).

Get at the Tar sands...build Keystone!
WhKnuckle
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3/12/2012 7:22pm Edited Date/Time 3/12/2012 7:23pm
All these questions presume the same suicidal scenario - that human beings never figure out how to live an advanced lifestyle while consuming much, much less energy. And it presumes that we never figure out how to generate energy in less-damaging ways than oil. If human beings are that stupid, they will exterminate themselves, and frankly they'll deserve it. That's the way nature works; if you eat grass faster than it grows and you can't figure out how to move to other pastures, you die.

If you want to stop tar sands development, stop driving so much. Become an energy conservationist. Trying to block a pipeline is a waste of time.

As far as Canada's threat to sell their oil to China, please help yourself to that option. We couldn't care less. When you sell oil on the open market, you lower the price of oil (although the amount we're talking about wouldn't make a measurable difference). Oil is a world-traded commodity, whether Saudi Arabia or Canada or Russia puts more oil on the market, the price goes down, no matter where the ships carrying the oil go to unload. Look at what happened to the price of natural gas when supply suddenly increased - it dropped by 300% or so over a few years.
TX24
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3/13/2012 7:50am
What always gets me about things like this in the media and politics is no one hardly ever talks much about details. It always just take this side, take the other side. I finally found this map of the current pipeline to Patoka Il. and the proposed part that everyone is talking about. The map is on the bottom the orange line is already operating. Maybe somebody can embed it for me.
I was interested cause I have been by the huge tank farm in Il.


http://www.transcanada.com/5730.html
SteveS
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3/13/2012 8:14am


Hmmm, guess it would be just another pipeline crossing the Oglallah Aquifer.
SteveS
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3/13/2012 8:18am
Here's their FAQ

http://www.transcanada.com/docs/Key_Projects/know_the_facts_kxl.pdf

"The crude oil Keystone XL will transport will be put on tankers and sent to China."

The crude oil Keystone XL will transport will not be shipped to China; it will be refined at U.S. refineries on
the Gulf Coast to meet American demand for petroleum products.

"Keystone XL will increase gasoline prices."

TransCanada does not set oil or gas prices. In fact, the price of international oil prices has no impact
on the operation of our pipeline and we do not profit from changing market changes. Prices are set on
a global level. Recently, for example, oil that is imported and sold on the U.S. Gulf Coast is trading for just over $102
U.S. per barrel. Western Canadian oil is currently trading for $68 U.S. per barrel. So in addition to enhancing America’s
energy security, the price to acquire Canadian oil is much lower.

"Keystone XL doesn’t benefit the U.S."

Keystone XL will bring significant economic benefits to Americans during construction and operations:
• private sector investment of more than $20 billion in the U.S. economy – at no cost to American taxpayers (food, lodging,
fuel, vehicles, equipment, and other construction supplies and services),
• create about 20,000 construction and manufacturing jobs, which will increase the personal income of American workers
by $6.5 billion,
• generate more than $585 million in new taxes for states and communities along the pipeline route,
• pay more than $5.2 billion in property taxes during the operating life of the pipeline, and
• strengthen America’s energy security by increasing the supply of safe, secure and reliable oil from Canadian and
American oil fields.
TransCanada’s Keystone
3/13/2012 11:34am
Have any of you ever been to northern Alberta? Seriously, no human being would ever stay there unless they were getting paid 200k a year. Flat as a parking lot and buried in snow 11 months of the year. The temperature ranges from -40c to -20 during the winter. Maybe up to 5c for a week or two in the 'summer.'
No one seems to be worried about prime farmland in CA being paved over for subdivisions. Lets dig a hole in the ground and fill it with concrete.
chadwik74
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3/13/2012 12:01pm
unknownmxr wrote:
Have any of you ever been to northern Alberta? Seriously, no human being would ever stay there unless they were getting paid 200k a year. Flat...
Have any of you ever been to northern Alberta? Seriously, no human being would ever stay there unless they were getting paid 200k a year. Flat as a parking lot and buried in snow 11 months of the year. The temperature ranges from -40c to -20 during the winter. Maybe up to 5c for a week or two in the 'summer.'
No one seems to be worried about prime farmland in CA being paved over for subdivisions. Lets dig a hole in the ground and fill it with concrete.
Lots of this is false....nice try though!
SteveS
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3/13/2012 1:34pm
Of course if you're talking about Los Angeles, much of it is prime oilfields paved over with subdivisions built on it....
Mutt
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3/14/2012 10:41pm
I used to really enjoy these intelligent, albeit long winded topics......


.........but now I just want the crib notes.

Oh Canada!
Prairieboy43
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11/21/2014 6:24pm
unknownmxr wrote:
Have any of you ever been to northern Alberta? Seriously, no human being would ever stay there unless they were getting paid 200k a year. Flat...
Have any of you ever been to northern Alberta? Seriously, no human being would ever stay there unless they were getting paid 200k a year. Flat as a parking lot and buried in snow 11 months of the year. The temperature ranges from -40c to -20 during the winter. Maybe up to 5c for a week or two in the 'summer.'
No one seems to be worried about prime farmland in CA being paved over for subdivisions. Lets dig a hole in the ground and fill it with concrete.
You need to get out more!!
Prairieboy43
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11/21/2014 6:28pm
mtnr wrote:
Hadn't paid attention that much, that is some nice country getting hammered, bit of a shame. Googled before and after shots, pretty intense. What do you...
Hadn't paid attention that much, that is some nice country getting hammered, bit of a shame. Googled before and after shots, pretty intense. What do you Canadians think about it? Aside from the economic boost part.
Maybe you should ask the Fort Chipewan, Fort Mackay Indians what they think? BlinkBlinkBlink
Foghorn
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11/21/2014 7:48pm Edited Date/Time 11/21/2014 7:50pm
unknownmxr wrote:
Have any of you ever been to northern Alberta? Seriously, no human being would ever stay there unless they were getting paid 200k a year. Flat...
Have any of you ever been to northern Alberta? Seriously, no human being would ever stay there unless they were getting paid 200k a year. Flat as a parking lot and buried in snow 11 months of the year. The temperature ranges from -40c to -20 during the winter. Maybe up to 5c for a week or two in the 'summer.'
No one seems to be worried about prime farmland in CA being paved over for subdivisions. Lets dig a hole in the ground and fill it with concrete.
Not sure if this unknown guy is still here or was beat to death for his lunch money some time back, but what a brain dead fuck. Oh, and sorry, I'm a polite Canadian talking to another. "Please" fuck off.

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