Germany's capitalism vs US capitalism

The Rock
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Edited Date/Time 8/3/2014 9:02pm
Check Germany's export figures and buying power of their middle class compared to the situation in the US if you want to see how capitalism is supposed to work and how it can work.
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ehr400
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7/31/2014 6:28am
I bet he is cut out of the family money then. Lol.
ehr400
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7/31/2014 6:34am
One other tidbit, like I told all my German coworkers before, the litmus test of America is not the San Frans, LA's, or NYC. It is all the "flyover states" where a bulk of us live. We are the ones who are the backbone of this country.

It is no different then a American going to Paris or Amsterdam and doing a documentry or something about how it really is in Europe. Cmon, he is driving a Porcshe married to powerful bitches daughter and his kids will have nice trust fund for future generations off our backs.

Rant over. Sorry.
The Rock
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7/31/2014 5:54pm
There is a huge difference between German's middle class and America's buying power and it is related to worker rate of pay versus CEO pay. I am really hoping Mr G, jtomasik voidmain and others will join in. Be nice to discuss facts and not opinions.
Mr. G
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7/31/2014 10:45pm
I think CEO's should make vastly more than any worker. By far. That is why I am one. I highly recommend it.

The Shop

The Rock
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8/1/2014 1:30am
I agree with you in principle but we disagree on the definition of vastly.

We've already determined that previously so how about sharing your opinion on why Germany's middle class possesses more buying power than America's. Germany is a capitalistic society and so is America's so why is Germany's capitalism rewarding their middle class more handsomely than the US's 21st century version of capitalism.
ehr400
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8/1/2014 7:20am
The Rock wrote:
I agree with you in principle but we disagree on the definition of vastly. We've already determined that previously so how about sharing your opinion on...
I agree with you in principle but we disagree on the definition of vastly.

We've already determined that previously so how about sharing your opinion on why Germany's middle class possesses more buying power than America's. Germany is a capitalistic society and so is America's so why is Germany's capitalism rewarding their middle class more handsomely than the US's 21st century version of capitalism.
Very true, i dont think buying power is neccecarily related to the income level it is more what the currency is worth. I talked with my relatives in Finland and they said their cost of living went up alot and had less spending money once they went to the Euro. Also for me to transfer to Germany and perform my same job over there I would take a 15% pay cut.

I do agree that CEO salaries in our country are outta control, for example executives at Daimler where I worked got paid well but not to such an exagerration that is prevalent here. But I know there is alot more secrecy too, not as much public info regarding compensation.
ehr400
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8/1/2014 7:21am
Plus the worker, or little guy like most of us are treated on a more even playing field then most places here in the USA I feel. They have more input to the process/ product and not so much us vs. them mentality.
8/1/2014 10:26am
The Rock wrote:
Check Germany's export figures and buying power of their middle class compared to the situation in the US if you want to see how capitalism is...
Check Germany's export figures and buying power of their middle class compared to the situation in the US if you want to see how capitalism is supposed to work and how it can work.
Let's be honest..... There are two MAJOR factors here at play:

1. American worker vs German worker / American Education system vs German education system. There is no comparison.

2. Germany is a worldwide banking hub. Since the worldwide economic recession, their economy took off when everyone else's was hurting. Everything is by design.
Rooster
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8/1/2014 10:54am
Mr. G wrote:
I think CEO's should make vastly more than any worker. By far. That is why I am one. I highly recommend it.
So as the owner of your company, would you be willing to pay a CEO 350 times more than you'd pay an employee?

There's a big difference between and entrepreneur who assumes all the financial risk and a hired gun who risks nothing personally. Risk deserves reward commensurate with the size of the risk. If you risk nothing, then why do you deserve the big reward? Just because you're in charge? At that point you're just another employee.
8/1/2014 11:59am
The Rock wrote:
I agree with you in principle but we disagree on the definition of vastly. We've already determined that previously so how about sharing your opinion on...
I agree with you in principle but we disagree on the definition of vastly.

We've already determined that previously so how about sharing your opinion on why Germany's middle class possesses more buying power than America's. Germany is a capitalistic society and so is America's so why is Germany's capitalism rewarding their middle class more handsomely than the US's 21st century version of capitalism.
Off the top of my head, based on the info posted here, Germany is not run by corporations. The U.S. is the largest corporation in the world, and it is a wholly-owned subsidiary of GE, IBM, Bank of America, Citigroup, Chevron, Exxon, Berkshire Hathaway, Boeing, Lockheed, etc. ad-infinitum, so on and so on, blah, blah, blah.

Put another way, the government appears to control corporations in Germany. Corporations control the government here. If you all actually knew the extent of the bribery that goes on, you'd be shocked. Look up Randy Cunningham (R, San Diego). Check out his bribery list. You all don't think he's the only one, do ya?
The Rock
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8/1/2014 3:22pm
The Rock wrote:
I agree with you in principle but we disagree on the definition of vastly. We've already determined that previously so how about sharing your opinion on...
I agree with you in principle but we disagree on the definition of vastly.

We've already determined that previously so how about sharing your opinion on why Germany's middle class possesses more buying power than America's. Germany is a capitalistic society and so is America's so why is Germany's capitalism rewarding their middle class more handsomely than the US's 21st century version of capitalism.
Off the top of my head, based on the info posted here, Germany is not run by corporations. The U.S. is the largest corporation in the...
Off the top of my head, based on the info posted here, Germany is not run by corporations. The U.S. is the largest corporation in the world, and it is a wholly-owned subsidiary of GE, IBM, Bank of America, Citigroup, Chevron, Exxon, Berkshire Hathaway, Boeing, Lockheed, etc. ad-infinitum, so on and so on, blah, blah, blah.

Put another way, the government appears to control corporations in Germany. Corporations control the government here. If you all actually knew the extent of the bribery that goes on, you'd be shocked. Look up Randy Cunningham (R, San Diego). Check out his bribery list. You all don't think he's the only one, do ya?
The U.S. is the largest corporation in the world, and it is a wholly-owned subsidiary of GE, IBM, Bank of America, Citigroup, Chevron, Exxon, Berkshire Hathaway, Boeing, Lockheed, etc. ad-infinitum, so on and so on, blah, blah, blah

I heard they're changing the name of the US Treasury to Goldman Sachs. :-)
Mr. G
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8/1/2014 3:34pm
Mr. G wrote:
I think CEO's should make vastly more than any worker. By far. That is why I am one. I highly recommend it.
Rooster wrote:
So as the owner of your company, would you be willing to pay a CEO 350 times more than you'd pay an employee? There's a big...
So as the owner of your company, would you be willing to pay a CEO 350 times more than you'd pay an employee?

There's a big difference between and entrepreneur who assumes all the financial risk and a hired gun who risks nothing personally. Risk deserves reward commensurate with the size of the risk. If you risk nothing, then why do you deserve the big reward? Just because you're in charge? At that point you're just another employee.
Totally agree.
Mr. G
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8/1/2014 3:40pm
The Rock wrote:
I agree with you in principle but we disagree on the definition of vastly. We've already determined that previously so how about sharing your opinion on...
I agree with you in principle but we disagree on the definition of vastly.

We've already determined that previously so how about sharing your opinion on why Germany's middle class possesses more buying power than America's. Germany is a capitalistic society and so is America's so why is Germany's capitalism rewarding their middle class more handsomely than the US's 21st century version of capitalism.
I am not educated on Germany's middle class enough to have a valid opinion.
tunedlength
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8/2/2014 12:23am
Germany does a good job of protecting its working class.
You can come from any EU country and live but you are last in line for work behind a German citizen.
Also if you are an immigrant dont expect s free ride.

I think the turning point was Agenda 2010.
The starting point came on March 14, 2003, with a speech in parliament by then-Chancellor Gerhard Schröder (SPD), who said, "We will have to limit the state's contributions, promote personal responsibility and demand more initiative from each individual."

Our leaders could learn a lot from the fatherland.
Why Obama Cannot Match Germany's Jobs Miracle

TeamGreen
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8/2/2014 1:10am
I think it's simple:

Their Beer and Chocolate are WAAAAAAAYYYYYYY BETTER!
8/2/2014 8:43am
There is really no way to compare the US to any other country. We are completely unique, Germany is like our full scholarship straight A Ivy League college kid who dropped out of school and was smoking rock and living in a crack house. After some tough love (WWII), keeping the drug dealers at bay (Russia / Cold War). We paid for them to go off to rehab, set them up with a nice apartment close to home, got them reenrolled in school (which we had to pay for). Now they have a great job and living on their own and doing things their own way. They really turned their life around. We are very proud of them but make no mistake if it wasn't for our dedicated parenting they would still be in the crack house turning tricks for the drug dealer (Russia).
8/2/2014 9:14am
The Rock wrote:
I agree with you in principle but we disagree on the definition of vastly. We've already determined that previously so how about sharing your opinion on...
I agree with you in principle but we disagree on the definition of vastly.

We've already determined that previously so how about sharing your opinion on why Germany's middle class possesses more buying power than America's. Germany is a capitalistic society and so is America's so why is Germany's capitalism rewarding their middle class more handsomely than the US's 21st century version of capitalism.
Off the top of my head, based on the info posted here, Germany is not run by corporations. The U.S. is the largest corporation in the...
Off the top of my head, based on the info posted here, Germany is not run by corporations. The U.S. is the largest corporation in the world, and it is a wholly-owned subsidiary of GE, IBM, Bank of America, Citigroup, Chevron, Exxon, Berkshire Hathaway, Boeing, Lockheed, etc. ad-infinitum, so on and so on, blah, blah, blah.

Put another way, the government appears to control corporations in Germany. Corporations control the government here. If you all actually knew the extent of the bribery that goes on, you'd be shocked. Look up Randy Cunningham (R, San Diego). Check out his bribery list. You all don't think he's the only one, do ya?
I'm not 100% in disagreeance with u about Americas structure. But I think we'd be lying to ourselves if we were to assume that even the best run socialist states such as Germany are just as corrupted politically.

I'm telling u guys, they are the banking hub capital of the world. And because of this, their reach is far and profitable. And it trickles down to a middle class that is better educated, more disciplined, and harder working than our middle class. It's that simple. It's one part economic advantage and another part sweat equity.
borg
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8/2/2014 9:18am
The Rock wrote:
There is a huge difference between German's middle class and America's buying power and it is related to worker rate of pay versus CEO pay. I...
There is a huge difference between German's middle class and America's buying power and it is related to worker rate of pay versus CEO pay. I am really hoping Mr G, jtomasik voidmain and others will join in. Be nice to discuss facts and not opinions.
I'm not going to challenge your assertion about the difference being CEO vs worker pay. Doesn't mean that I agree though. What I want to know is what would you do about it?
I asked a similar question in another thread and never got an answer.
8/2/2014 9:36am
The Rock wrote:
There is a huge difference between German's middle class and America's buying power and it is related to worker rate of pay versus CEO pay. I...
There is a huge difference between German's middle class and America's buying power and it is related to worker rate of pay versus CEO pay. I am really hoping Mr G, jtomasik voidmain and others will join in. Be nice to discuss facts and not opinions.
borg wrote:
I'm not going to challenge your assertion about the difference being CEO vs worker pay. Doesn't mean that I agree though. What I want to know...
I'm not going to challenge your assertion about the difference being CEO vs worker pay. Doesn't mean that I agree though. What I want to know is what would you do about it?
I asked a similar question in another thread and never got an answer.
The only thing that can be done about it is for the American worker to improve.

That is how u close the gap to the CEO.

The American culture of middle America isn't known for its discipline or work ethic. It's largely uneducated, entitled, undisciplined, and not the hardest worker. Isn't Walmart one of our countries largest employers? Shouldn't that answer the question as to why our middle class is dead?
8/2/2014 9:57am Edited Date/Time 8/2/2014 9:58am
The Rock wrote:
There is a huge difference between German's middle class and America's buying power and it is related to worker rate of pay versus CEO pay. I...
There is a huge difference between German's middle class and America's buying power and it is related to worker rate of pay versus CEO pay. I am really hoping Mr G, jtomasik voidmain and others will join in. Be nice to discuss facts and not opinions.
borg wrote:
I'm not going to challenge your assertion about the difference being CEO vs worker pay. Doesn't mean that I agree though. What I want to know...
I'm not going to challenge your assertion about the difference being CEO vs worker pay. Doesn't mean that I agree though. What I want to know is what would you do about it?
I asked a similar question in another thread and never got an answer.
The only thing that can be done about it is for the American worker to improve. That is how u close the gap to the CEO...
The only thing that can be done about it is for the American worker to improve.

That is how u close the gap to the CEO.

The American culture of middle America isn't known for its discipline or work ethic. It's largely uneducated, entitled, undisciplined, and not the hardest worker. Isn't Walmart one of our countries largest employers? Shouldn't that answer the question as to why our middle class is dead?
Their education system allows them to have better workers. They only allow the most promising students into academic programswhile the others are forced to learn trades. Much more efficient and effective but we will never be able to do that.
8/2/2014 11:15am
borg wrote:
I'm not going to challenge your assertion about the difference being CEO vs worker pay. Doesn't mean that I agree though. What I want to know...
I'm not going to challenge your assertion about the difference being CEO vs worker pay. Doesn't mean that I agree though. What I want to know is what would you do about it?
I asked a similar question in another thread and never got an answer.
The only thing that can be done about it is for the American worker to improve. That is how u close the gap to the CEO...
The only thing that can be done about it is for the American worker to improve.

That is how u close the gap to the CEO.

The American culture of middle America isn't known for its discipline or work ethic. It's largely uneducated, entitled, undisciplined, and not the hardest worker. Isn't Walmart one of our countries largest employers? Shouldn't that answer the question as to why our middle class is dead?
Their education system allows them to have better workers. They only allow the most promising students into academic programswhile the others are forced to learn trades...
Their education system allows them to have better workers. They only allow the most promising students into academic programswhile the others are forced to learn trades. Much more efficient and effective but we will never be able to do that.
True. But ur only acknowledging genetic predisposition and the fact that they cater to it.

We may never have that sorta system. But that isn't why our education system is a failure.

Our education system has been under funded since the 70s. The last time our gov cared was during the 40s and 50s when we needed to be smarter than Russia.

Out of that spending came a smarter population, but at a cost. It also spawned a more aware population and thus the whole anti-war hippy movement of the 60s on forward. A smart population is seen as a threat to our establishment. The school system has been paying the price ever since.

And in turn, we as a society care even less than ever about our kids education. We treat it like a daycare and we make a teachers job unfullfiling and impossible. We fail our school system today every bit as much if not more than our politicians do.

Our countries tirans of industry has figured out a way to survive (for now) and thrive with a middle class that has a 3rd grade education and a work ethic that only aspires to work at Walmart. It is what it is.

And I'm not even getting into the other reasons why Germany is more efficient than us. Healthcare, and their general view on it is vastly different than ours. They eat/live healthier than we do and so they waste less on useless health care costs. All this sorta cultural stuff adds up and takes its toll on a economy.

If people want a solution here in the USA, they have to stop looking at it so simply. A quick policy change by our gov isn't going to fix things. But that's what we all want. We dont want to look inward for solutions and change, we want someone else to do it for us.

That's 'Murica. Home of NASCAR, McDonalds, and the ever successful Kardashians. And we seriously wonder why our middle class is suffering? Really!?!?

The Rock
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8/2/2014 1:07pm
The only thing that can be done about it is for the American worker to improve. That is how u close the gap to the CEO...
The only thing that can be done about it is for the American worker to improve.

That is how u close the gap to the CEO.

The American culture of middle America isn't known for its discipline or work ethic. It's largely uneducated, entitled, undisciplined, and not the hardest worker. Isn't Walmart one of our countries largest employers? Shouldn't that answer the question as to why our middle class is dead?
Are you attempting to use one wrong to justify another? American's workers work ethic is now flawed so it is okay for CEO pay ratio to have increased exponentially in the US?

Where are all the jobs? Oh yeah many CEOs have shipped them abroad and now the tax inversion deal for corporations are letting them pay a fraction of the taxes by moving their HQ abroad. It appears there is help on the way to stem this flow in the wrong direction.
The Rock
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8/2/2014 1:09pm
True. But ur only acknowledging genetic predisposition and the fact that they cater to it. We may never have that sorta system. But that isn't why...
True. But ur only acknowledging genetic predisposition and the fact that they cater to it.

We may never have that sorta system. But that isn't why our education system is a failure.

Our education system has been under funded since the 70s. The last time our gov cared was during the 40s and 50s when we needed to be smarter than Russia.

Out of that spending came a smarter population, but at a cost. It also spawned a more aware population and thus the whole anti-war hippy movement of the 60s on forward. A smart population is seen as a threat to our establishment. The school system has been paying the price ever since.

And in turn, we as a society care even less than ever about our kids education. We treat it like a daycare and we make a teachers job unfullfiling and impossible. We fail our school system today every bit as much if not more than our politicians do.

Our countries tirans of industry has figured out a way to survive (for now) and thrive with a middle class that has a 3rd grade education and a work ethic that only aspires to work at Walmart. It is what it is.

And I'm not even getting into the other reasons why Germany is more efficient than us. Healthcare, and their general view on it is vastly different than ours. They eat/live healthier than we do and so they waste less on useless health care costs. All this sorta cultural stuff adds up and takes its toll on a economy.

If people want a solution here in the USA, they have to stop looking at it so simply. A quick policy change by our gov isn't going to fix things. But that's what we all want. We dont want to look inward for solutions and change, we want someone else to do it for us.

That's 'Murica. Home of NASCAR, McDonalds, and the ever successful Kardashians. And we seriously wonder why our middle class is suffering? Really!?!?

Nail hit squarely on head. Excellent post.

Back in the late 80s my German friend's daughters went to high school on Saturdays for a half day because their work schedule was so full. Can you imagine tearing American kids away from their smartphones on Saturdays? Yeah right.
8/2/2014 7:07pm
The only thing that can be done about it is for the American worker to improve. That is how u close the gap to the CEO...
The only thing that can be done about it is for the American worker to improve.

That is how u close the gap to the CEO.

The American culture of middle America isn't known for its discipline or work ethic. It's largely uneducated, entitled, undisciplined, and not the hardest worker. Isn't Walmart one of our countries largest employers? Shouldn't that answer the question as to why our middle class is dead?
The Rock wrote:
Are you attempting to use one wrong to justify another? American's workers work ethic is now flawed so it is okay for CEO pay ratio to...
Are you attempting to use one wrong to justify another? American's workers work ethic is now flawed so it is okay for CEO pay ratio to have increased exponentially in the US?

Where are all the jobs? Oh yeah many CEOs have shipped them abroad and now the tax inversion deal for corporations are letting them pay a fraction of the taxes by moving their HQ abroad. It appears there is help on the way to stem this flow in the wrong direction.
Not really justifying. Just pointing out that the overpaid CEO doesn't really exist without the worker drone. And that we as consumers don't do our part in being aware of where we spend our money, which is an extension of just how dumb our public has become. You can try to legislate companies to not ship jobs elsewhere but why? That doesn't solve the root issue.

I buy certain "made in USA" products if the quality is top notch. But there's a flip side to being an aware consumer. Unfortunately, I can't do that with all products. All of my kitchen ware comes from France or Germany. They simply have the best standards for health. There are so many reasons we as a consumer should avoid most products from China that it is ludicrous to me that it would require impossible legislation to force people to buy elsewhere. I only buy European motorcycles because their quality is better than the Japanese counterparts. I typically only buy Japanese automobiles. Although I've owned German and British vehicles and been happy with both. Point is, I agree with u that America needs to keep its jobs here and we should spend our money here. But we gotta make better products for the consumer and that starts with a better workforce. The cultural shift required is overwhelming when u think about it.

We should all be aspiring to be our own CEOs. Small family owned businesses provide the best working environment and local economy.

Mr. G
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8/2/2014 9:18pm
Just in case someone doesn't want to be a CEO you can always do what my sisters does, she fires her boss and gets a new one.
The Rock
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8/2/2014 10:23pm Edited Date/Time 8/2/2014 10:32pm
Germany does a good job of protecting its working class. You can come from any EU country and live but you are last in line for...
Germany does a good job of protecting its working class.
You can come from any EU country and live but you are last in line for work behind a German citizen.
Also if you are an immigrant dont expect s free ride.

I think the turning point was Agenda 2010.
The starting point came on March 14, 2003, with a speech in parliament by then-Chancellor Gerhard Schröder (SPD), who said, "We will have to limit the state's contributions, promote personal responsibility and demand more initiative from each individual."

Our leaders could learn a lot from the fatherland.
Why Obama Cannot Match Germany's Jobs Miracle

"Instead, the Hartz reforms rest on the common sense notion that people take jobs when work, rather than welfare, pays. Such an approach violates Obama’s core belief that government must make the lives of the unemployed as comfortable as possible."

I wasn't aware this is one of Obama's core beliefs. Great article but the bias is a little over the top.

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