California bank robbery.

Shiftfaced
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7/18/2014 9:01am
You don't really believe that, do you?

Do you remember the bank robbing days of the Wild West?

I went up to Idaho City recently, and walked around the old "Historical" part of town. This place was a boom-town during the gold rush, and was actually bigger than Boise for a while.

There is a placard posted that talks about the cemetery. Of the first 200 plots that were used, 11 were from "natural causes", and the other 189 were from lead poisoning.

RMT
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Lake Forest, CA US
7/18/2014 10:51am
hillbilly wrote:
If all the customers in the bank had a gun no way this robbery happens.
Your mistaking CA for TN. People in TN were raised and taught at a young age how to handle a firearm. Not so in CA. The criminals are not scared of other people with guns. If everyone had a gun, the robbery would have still attempted to take place and more people would have been shot.

Next time your eating out or in the local grocery store or mall, just look around at all the other people. Look closely at them and think "would I want them shooting at a bad guy while Im standing 5 feet away". I think you will answer that question a resounding hell no. Probably less than 5% of our population could hit a target 10 feet away while under the stress of a life and death event.

We don't need to arm everyone to be safe. We just need to prioritize what we want out of our society. If you want true freedom like the Constitution states, these kind of events will happen under that freedom and you have to accept it. Same as wanting to go to Europe and accepting that to get there in 8 hours could mean a crash and burn.
IWreckALot
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7/18/2014 11:24am
Well, I've said many times that I'm not an expert on gun laws. That really wasn't the question. My question is how could less gun control...
Well, I've said many times that I'm not an expert on gun laws. That really wasn't the question. My question is how could less gun control really help a situation such as this one? How could you view a situation in which nobody is really even sure who shot who as an argument for less gun control? It seems to me that people like newmann simply make new threads every time somebody gets shot that doesn't have a gun in their hand. I'm pointing out that things could quickly become much more complicated if more people had guns, especially for the police in this situation.

It is possible to have an honest discussion about this, as the last time I asked questions, Eddy gave straightforward answers. He gave specific laws that weren't effective and infringed on the lawful owners rights, and he also admitted that some form of control is in order.

In your case, your simply cherry picking an incredibly small part of my post and ignoring the main question. It's not helping anyone to come to rational conclusions. I'm on the fence on gun control, but if you people structure your arguments a bit better and provide some real points to consider...you might gain more support. "Lets drink the kool aid" isn't an argument, it's an appeal to emotion, which means you probably haven't considered anything besides your own view.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks this way. Tragedies like this only give ammo to both sides of the argument (pardon the pun). I'm on par with you, I don't want more or less gun control, but more efficient. Government doesn't seem to think this way in general.

The way I see it is, you're not going to please much of anyone with any decision.

The primary questions are:

1) How do you keep guns from bad people?

2) How do you make it convenient enough for honest, non malicious folks to own guns.

The easy answer to number 1, inconveniences the people in number 2. The easy answer to number 2 makes it easier for bad people to own guns.

I wish there were some unbiased reports showing statistics around gun crimes. Specifically, what percentage of crimes were committed with weapons that legally belonged to the suspect and what percentage of the firearms were stolen?

My first impression is a high percentage are stolen firearms. So then the question becomes, how do we keep the firearm thieves, from stealing firearms? Perhaps the answer is to force safes or some other safe keeping rules on gun owners.

I'm like the wood, I don't have any answers but there's gotta be a better way to go about this than where it currently is.
Mr. G
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7/18/2014 11:27am
There are already laws for all of that. Try again.

The Shop

IWreckALot
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7/18/2014 12:39pm
Mr. G wrote:
There are already laws for all of that. Try again.
Oh. That's news to me. The laws are already perfect as they are. Fuck me. Didn't realize that. Thanks guy.
Mr. G
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7/18/2014 12:45pm
Do you really not know that there already laws for this? Do you also not know that criminals don't follow laws?
Shiftfaced
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7/18/2014 1:07pm Edited Date/Time 7/18/2014 1:20pm
IWreckALot wrote:
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks this way. Tragedies like this only give ammo to both sides of the argument (pardon the pun)...
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks this way. Tragedies like this only give ammo to both sides of the argument (pardon the pun). I'm on par with you, I don't want more or less gun control, but more efficient. Government doesn't seem to think this way in general.

The way I see it is, you're not going to please much of anyone with any decision.

The primary questions are:

1) How do you keep guns from bad people?

2) How do you make it convenient enough for honest, non malicious folks to own guns.

The easy answer to number 1, inconveniences the people in number 2. The easy answer to number 2 makes it easier for bad people to own guns.

I wish there were some unbiased reports showing statistics around gun crimes. Specifically, what percentage of crimes were committed with weapons that legally belonged to the suspect and what percentage of the firearms were stolen?

My first impression is a high percentage are stolen firearms. So then the question becomes, how do we keep the firearm thieves, from stealing firearms? Perhaps the answer is to force safes or some other safe keeping rules on gun owners.

I'm like the wood, I don't have any answers but there's gotta be a better way to go about this than where it currently is.
I think you and Wood109 are trying to have a meaningful discussion.

I applaud you.

I am a gun owner, and see the need/utility to keep them around.

The question is: How can we limit the access that bad people seem to readily have?

I don't think that is too tough of a problem to solve, if we all work on finding a solution. The problem is, half of us don't think we have a problem. That is a problem.

In the off-road world, we found out that loud exhausts were a problem. We became pro-active, and started to tell our loud-pipe brothers that they need to tone it down a bit. It seems to be working.

I think those us of who want to keep access to guns need to be proactive in trying to find a solution. Otherwise, if all we do is ignore it, and pretend that the problem does not exist, we might not like the solution that others some up with.....
newmann
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7/18/2014 1:15pm
Every time there is a shooting the left goes so extremely whack that they don't even make sense. There are hundreds of millions of guns out there that are not going to go away. Not gonna happen. Go ahead and ban them all, like drugs and you'll be able to buy them in every small town just like weed, meth, pills and heroine. It's so easy for them to point the finger at the NRA and call them murderers and such when in reality the NRA has nothing to do with it. If anything, the NRA promotes gun safety and awareness, not murdering. Instead of proposing a ban on kids clothing with a gun manufacturers logo on it or bright colorful guns why don't they propose mandatory gun safety classes in all schools nationwide? Teach kids early on not only to respect but also the proper way to handle and maintain a firearm. A little education could go a long way.
FLmxer
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7/18/2014 1:17pm Edited Date/Time 7/18/2014 1:18pm
I don't think the government really cares about the tiny percent of issues with guns and deaths from guns. It makes news, it makes government jobs and it is a form of population control at the end of their day. I believe roads are similar. There is usually a few feet on the sides of most roads, yet there is only 6 inches in the middle. 16 year olds , 90 year olds and northerners( jk) passing at 60 mph or more 6 inches away is a guaranteed recipe for so many deaths. That line in the middle could easily be 2 or 4 feet but it's 6 inches. Don't give me that $$ bs either. Should be 6 inches on the edge not in the middle. I still tow a rig that barely fits in the lanes most days and never give it a thought as most don't but this made me consider this as well. Ha
Mr. G
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7/18/2014 3:39pm
Big Lenny wrote:
The cops should have have 12 gauge slugs.
Mr. G
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7/18/2014 3:39pm
Hey newman is it legal or possible for civilians to buy 12 gauge rubber bullets?
IWreckALot
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7/18/2014 5:23pm Edited Date/Time 7/18/2014 5:24pm
newmann wrote:
Every time there is a shooting the left goes so extremely whack that they don't even make sense. There are hundreds of millions of guns out...
Every time there is a shooting the left goes so extremely whack that they don't even make sense. There are hundreds of millions of guns out there that are not going to go away. Not gonna happen. Go ahead and ban them all, like drugs and you'll be able to buy them in every small town just like weed, meth, pills and heroine. It's so easy for them to point the finger at the NRA and call them murderers and such when in reality the NRA has nothing to do with it. If anything, the NRA promotes gun safety and awareness, not murdering. Instead of proposing a ban on kids clothing with a gun manufacturers logo on it or bright colorful guns why don't they propose mandatory gun safety classes in all schools nationwide? Teach kids early on not only to respect but also the proper way to handle and maintain a firearm. A little education could go a long way.
I absolutely agree with you that the left can go fuck themselves with their fairy tale solutions. There is no way to get all the guns off the street that are out there.

To your education point, our public school system is not capable of teaching basic math so I'm not sure I think they're the proper venue to teach children gun control. And I also disagree with government imposing that kind of education on kids of parents with different values.

Newmann, what do you think of the gun rights activists marching around traffic, chipotle and target while carrying their firearms. They have the right to do that but I think that is a bit over the top. However, I think those individuals are oddly enough the ones id want to have around in a case like the California ordeal. It doesn't bother me but it seems to draw some negative attention to the pro gun movement even though that's not their intentions.
Mr. G
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7/18/2014 5:40pm
newmann wrote:
Every time there is a shooting the left goes so extremely whack that they don't even make sense. There are hundreds of millions of guns out...
Every time there is a shooting the left goes so extremely whack that they don't even make sense. There are hundreds of millions of guns out there that are not going to go away. Not gonna happen. Go ahead and ban them all, like drugs and you'll be able to buy them in every small town just like weed, meth, pills and heroine. It's so easy for them to point the finger at the NRA and call them murderers and such when in reality the NRA has nothing to do with it. If anything, the NRA promotes gun safety and awareness, not murdering. Instead of proposing a ban on kids clothing with a gun manufacturers logo on it or bright colorful guns why don't they propose mandatory gun safety classes in all schools nationwide? Teach kids early on not only to respect but also the proper way to handle and maintain a firearm. A little education could go a long way.
IWreckALot wrote:
I absolutely agree with you that the left can go fuck themselves with their fairy tale solutions. There is no way to get all the guns...
I absolutely agree with you that the left can go fuck themselves with their fairy tale solutions. There is no way to get all the guns off the street that are out there.

To your education point, our public school system is not capable of teaching basic math so I'm not sure I think they're the proper venue to teach children gun control. And I also disagree with government imposing that kind of education on kids of parents with different values.

Newmann, what do you think of the gun rights activists marching around traffic, chipotle and target while carrying their firearms. They have the right to do that but I think that is a bit over the top. However, I think those individuals are oddly enough the ones id want to have around in a case like the California ordeal. It doesn't bother me but it seems to draw some negative attention to the pro gun movement even though that's not their intentions.
Gun rights advocates should not ever go around scaring people. It not only doesn't garner agreement but it causes one to turn against the cause. This can be seen in the gay rights parade. It is so extreme that it turns people away and maybe that is their intention.
Mr. G
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7/18/2014 5:42pm
Mr. G wrote:
There are already laws for all of that. Try again.
IWreckALot wrote:
Oh. That's news to me. The laws are already perfect as they are. Fuck me. Didn't realize that. Thanks guy.
Do you not know that there are already laws against this? Do you not know that criminals don't follow laws?
newmann
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7/18/2014 6:15pm
newmann wrote:
Every time there is a shooting the left goes so extremely whack that they don't even make sense. There are hundreds of millions of guns out...
Every time there is a shooting the left goes so extremely whack that they don't even make sense. There are hundreds of millions of guns out there that are not going to go away. Not gonna happen. Go ahead and ban them all, like drugs and you'll be able to buy them in every small town just like weed, meth, pills and heroine. It's so easy for them to point the finger at the NRA and call them murderers and such when in reality the NRA has nothing to do with it. If anything, the NRA promotes gun safety and awareness, not murdering. Instead of proposing a ban on kids clothing with a gun manufacturers logo on it or bright colorful guns why don't they propose mandatory gun safety classes in all schools nationwide? Teach kids early on not only to respect but also the proper way to handle and maintain a firearm. A little education could go a long way.
IWreckALot wrote:
I absolutely agree with you that the left can go fuck themselves with their fairy tale solutions. There is no way to get all the guns...
I absolutely agree with you that the left can go fuck themselves with their fairy tale solutions. There is no way to get all the guns off the street that are out there.

To your education point, our public school system is not capable of teaching basic math so I'm not sure I think they're the proper venue to teach children gun control. And I also disagree with government imposing that kind of education on kids of parents with different values.

Newmann, what do you think of the gun rights activists marching around traffic, chipotle and target while carrying their firearms. They have the right to do that but I think that is a bit over the top. However, I think those individuals are oddly enough the ones id want to have around in a case like the California ordeal. It doesn't bother me but it seems to draw some negative attention to the pro gun movement even though that's not their intentions.
Mr. G wrote:
Gun rights advocates should not ever go around scaring people. It not only doesn't garner agreement but it causes one to turn against the cause. This...
Gun rights advocates should not ever go around scaring people. It not only doesn't garner agreement but it causes one to turn against the cause. This can be seen in the gay rights parade. It is so extreme that it turns people away and maybe that is their intention.
I mentioned in another thread that Open Carry Texas is the Gay Pride Parade of fucktard gun owners. Flamboyent and in your face. It all got started for the right reasons but damn, so many of them look downright stupid. More harm than good? Tell that to the Gay Pride movement.....
Crash82
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7/18/2014 8:03pm Edited Date/Time 7/18/2014 8:07pm
I don't think that is too tough of a problem to solve, if we all work on finding a solution. The problem is, half of us don't think we have a problem. That is a problem.


You can not stop criminals from having guns any more than you can stop the sale of illegal drugs. Who said criminals having guns is not a problem? Half of us didn't say it wasn't a problem. Your problem is a off kilter view of reality, Criminals having guns is a huge problem, also are you going to change human nature? How do you stop knives and bats? Tire irons? Etc.

Here are the choices:

1. Criminals with guns, non-criminals without guns.

2. Criminals with guns, non-criminals with guns.

How do you stop people selling guns on the corner? Behind closed doors? You said it wouldn't be too tough, i am all ears.
Mr. G
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7/18/2014 10:42pm
Here is the answer, if I may. The anti-gun people differ in their stated goals verses their suggested actions. That is to say if their suggested actions cause more crime then why would their goal be other than more crime. It has been seen time and time again that this is the case. What we run into is by our good nature we give them the benefit of doubt and land on the side of good nature, whether logical or not.
SEEMEFIRST
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7/19/2014 2:27am
Jon_Haynes wrote:
The gun show loop hole that everybody says need fixed. Do you know that all dealers are required to do a 4473.thats the paper work and...
The gun show loop hole that everybody says need fixed. Do you know that all dealers are required to do a 4473.thats the paper work and phone call to the ATF.There is no loop hole.well the one the news wants you think is there. lets drink the kool aid
RM127 wrote:
This is CA. There is no gun show loop hole here. Plus we have the useless bullet button law and the 10 round mags.... Here's my...
This is CA. There is no gun show loop hole here.

Plus we have the useless bullet button law and the 10 round mags....


Here's my solutions:

-Mental Illness database
-Open carry allowed
-2 year gun permit (Stricter testing but no wait period for buying)(renewal every 2 years)
-More gun rights (30 round mag, no bullet button, and shorter barrels)
What is "Bullet Button"?
Mr. G
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7/19/2014 2:39am
In CA it is a technical term meaning a way to re-load an AR in way that can keep up with an old M1 Garand. All joking aside newman can explain it better but the laws in CA have made it tough to re-load an AR quickly. I make the joke because an M1 Garand that fires a 308 and can be loaded as designed from day one but the gun doesn't look menacing so it escapes the usual Liberal "fixes".
the_wood109
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Edgewater, FL US
7/19/2014 8:52pm Edited Date/Time 7/19/2014 8:52pm
Well, I've said many times that I'm not an expert on gun laws. That really wasn't the question. My question is how could less gun control...
Well, I've said many times that I'm not an expert on gun laws. That really wasn't the question. My question is how could less gun control really help a situation such as this one? How could you view a situation in which nobody is really even sure who shot who as an argument for less gun control? It seems to me that people like newmann simply make new threads every time somebody gets shot that doesn't have a gun in their hand. I'm pointing out that things could quickly become much more complicated if more people had guns, especially for the police in this situation.

It is possible to have an honest discussion about this, as the last time I asked questions, Eddy gave straightforward answers. He gave specific laws that weren't effective and infringed on the lawful owners rights, and he also admitted that some form of control is in order.

In your case, your simply cherry picking an incredibly small part of my post and ignoring the main question. It's not helping anyone to come to rational conclusions. I'm on the fence on gun control, but if you people structure your arguments a bit better and provide some real points to consider...you might gain more support. "Lets drink the kool aid" isn't an argument, it's an appeal to emotion, which means you probably haven't considered anything besides your own view.
IWreckALot wrote:
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks this way. Tragedies like this only give ammo to both sides of the argument (pardon the pun)...
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks this way. Tragedies like this only give ammo to both sides of the argument (pardon the pun). I'm on par with you, I don't want more or less gun control, but more efficient. Government doesn't seem to think this way in general.

The way I see it is, you're not going to please much of anyone with any decision.

The primary questions are:

1) How do you keep guns from bad people?

2) How do you make it convenient enough for honest, non malicious folks to own guns.

The easy answer to number 1, inconveniences the people in number 2. The easy answer to number 2 makes it easier for bad people to own guns.

I wish there were some unbiased reports showing statistics around gun crimes. Specifically, what percentage of crimes were committed with weapons that legally belonged to the suspect and what percentage of the firearms were stolen?

My first impression is a high percentage are stolen firearms. So then the question becomes, how do we keep the firearm thieves, from stealing firearms? Perhaps the answer is to force safes or some other safe keeping rules on gun owners.

I'm like the wood, I don't have any answers but there's gotta be a better way to go about this than where it currently is.
Most don't read from an honest perspective. They know they just want guns, but never stop to think about the possible implications of having zero regulation. Case and point:

Hey asshole why don't you spit out my gun nut, it's getting sore. What kind of stupid comment is this?

"Can we move on to how this crime is an argument for less gun control and standards?"

Simple answer, gun control laws punish honest law abiding citizens. Holy Jesus karate muffin.


This is a failure of brain activity on every level. This is why I go after religion so viciously...it's the mentality that takes over when people are put into a defensive position. It's a knee jerk reaction. How dare somebody ask a question. You lose all focus on truth and resort to complete and utter irrationality.

You quote a question that was asked, and don't even bother to answer. You simply answer a question in your head that you think is threatening. Whatever it was, it wasn't the same honest question that I asked.



the_wood109
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7/19/2014 9:12pm
Mr. G, I see problems with that document right at the beginning, but my post really isn't about that at all. I concede that I don't...
Mr. G, I see problems with that document right at the beginning, but my post really isn't about that at all. I concede that I don't know anything about trade shows and just added it into my post, unsubstantiated.

Can we move on to how this crime is an argument for less gun control and standards?
Mr. G wrote:
It as usual comes down to the fact that criminals don't follow laws. This is why the debates continues on and on. If there were zero...
It as usual comes down to the fact that criminals don't follow laws. This is why the debates continues on and on. If there were zero gun laws and I had say 500 hundred guns and you were my neighbor and if you were attacked I would do everything possible to help you. I am not a murdering criminal and think highly of other people, hence my urge to make things better.
It as usual comes down to the fact that criminals don't follow laws. This is why the debates continues on and on.

Right, the criminals do not follow laws, something that we are all in agreement with. The debate actually isn't about that fact at all. That is a fact and I am agreeing with you that criminals don't follow laws.

If there were zero gun laws and I had say 500 hundred guns and you were my neighbor and if you were attacked I would do everything possible to help you.


This is where I make a case for some regulation. What if it were the police raiding your neighbors house and you thought he was being attacked? What if your neighbor stole one gun..you thought you had 500 guns but you really only have 499? There are so many instances where a simple gun registration program helps the issue.

I am not a murdering criminal and think highly of other people, hence my urge to make things better.


I'm not saying you or any other gun owners here are murdering criminals. If your urge is to make things better, than consider which laws would be helpful and which ones harmful. The goal is to minimize crime with as little impact on lawful owners as possible. This idea of it "has to but all guns or none," is simply false.

Even after it all, I still don't see how this particular case could be an argument for less gun control. We basically have two sides here...the cops and robbers. They had a shootout that killed some innocent people. The fact of the matter is the cops could have killed the hostages.

Now, add another party (Civilian) into this very chaotic gun battle and you have chaos. A potential crossfire from every gun guy that wants to be a hero, and cops that don't know who the good guy and the bad guys are.
Mr. G
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7/19/2014 10:44pm
If my neighbor was being raided by the cops I would leave the cops the hell alone. The rest of your post is certainly possible. Correct me if I am wrong but I think once the cops are there civilians are supposed to not interfere. A shootout if it is anything it is chaotic. That is for sure. Unless you are watching an episode of "The Rifleman". Now if there are laws that could be enacted that would lessen crime and not lessen honest peoples rights I don't know what they are.
jtomasik
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7/25/2014 8:58am
Check this one out. This guy not only stopped this lady from robbing anyone ever again, but he also prevented her from passing that behavior along to her children!

Man shoots robber.


Now that's being proactive!
MR. X
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7/25/2014 9:34am
SEEMEFIRST wrote:
What is "Bullet Button"?
The button on the side for dropping the mag gets replaced with a housing that has a hole in it , to drop the mag you have to push something in the hole to release the mag , a small punch or the tip of a round or bullet ,hence the name bullet button. Another feel good knee jerk reaction by the dictators .
RM127
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7/25/2014 5:48pm Edited Date/Time 7/25/2014 5:52pm
Jon_Haynes wrote:
The gun show loop hole that everybody says need fixed. Do you know that all dealers are required to do a 4473.thats the paper work and...
The gun show loop hole that everybody says need fixed. Do you know that all dealers are required to do a 4473.thats the paper work and phone call to the ATF.There is no loop hole.well the one the news wants you think is there. lets drink the kool aid
RM127 wrote:
This is CA. There is no gun show loop hole here. Plus we have the useless bullet button law and the 10 round mags.... Here's my...
This is CA. There is no gun show loop hole here.

Plus we have the useless bullet button law and the 10 round mags....


Here's my solutions:

-Mental Illness database
-Open carry allowed
-2 year gun permit (Stricter testing but no wait period for buying)(renewal every 2 years)
-More gun rights (30 round mag, no bullet button, and shorter barrels)
SEEMEFIRST wrote:
What is "Bullet Button"?


In simple terms:

-Instead of being able to press the whole magazine release button. You have to press the smaller button inside the magazine release with a tool or tip of a bullet. Hence the name "bullet button".



The problem is that anyone "serious" about using the rifle can buy the "illegal" magazine release for $5 online and takes only a minute to switch. Or they make magnetics or gloves that byplass the bullet button.

I can pretty much guarantee that no criminals in CA will obey this law.


Post a reply to: California bank robbery.

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