moto guys in gncc

doofy
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Edited Date/Time 7/5/2017 6:10am
Ive been a woods bro and everytime im at a xc race i always wonder how a top mx guy would fare at a gncc. Quad guys do it usually at te ironman, ive seen Natalie, brown and weinen but they dont have a factory team to tell them no.

My friend who also races woods but is primarily a moto guy swears up and down that if a top tier rider like rv or rd came out they'd yard the field with no woods prep under their belt. I dont buy it. Im not trying to start a passing match about which discipline is harder so let's not take it there.

Sipes and osbourne hsve both done well, and not knocking them ay all but im talking championship caliber rider. I wonder about the difference in fitness level also, i used to think wopds guys had to pace themselves but after seeing kr's monitor pic, i wouldnt call that holding back, pkus I've listened to many interviews and lately xc guys are saying they cant afford to pace themselves that its pretty much sll out to win in today's game
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Ryan598
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3/16/2017 6:16pm
Doug Henry answered this back in 05.



doofy
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3/16/2017 6:19pm
^ true, that was the performance of s lifetime too. Left that place in an ambulance. Juha absolutely decimated the competition the rest of the season too... makes you wonder. Id like to see on in the first and not the sand tho

Pastrana did a couple but dnf go figure.
agn5009
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3/16/2017 6:28pm
Ryan598 wrote:
Doug Henry answered this back in 05. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/03/16/181738/s1200_IMG_2482.jpg[/img]
Doug Henry answered this back in 05.



If you think the GNCC in Florida is comparative of the majority of tracks you're nuts.

Here's what I think. The cream rises to the top. If Ryan Dungey would have raced offroad he would have won a lot of titles. I honestly believe if Kaliub Russell had focused on mx he would have done the same. They're the best at their discipline for a reason. They have the heart, desire and drive to be the best.
Ryan598
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3/16/2017 6:35pm Edited Date/Time 3/16/2017 6:37pm
Ryan598 wrote:
Doug Henry answered this back in 05. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/03/16/181738/s1200_IMG_2482.jpg[/img]
Doug Henry answered this back in 05.



agn5009 wrote:
If you think the GNCC in Florida is comparative of the majority of tracks you're nuts. Here's what I think. The cream rises to the top...
If you think the GNCC in Florida is comparative of the majority of tracks you're nuts.

Here's what I think. The cream rises to the top. If Ryan Dungey would have raced offroad he would have won a lot of titles. I honestly believe if Kaliub Russell had focused on mx he would have done the same. They're the best at their discipline for a reason. They have the heart, desire and drive to be the best.
I have raced a hand full of them. I have also seen Juha race in person. If you can beat him on any track, you can win gncc's.

The Shop

doofy
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3/16/2017 6:55pm
Juha was a sand specialist also, being from Finland . I stood next to him and he seems about 5 foot 3...

Oh yeah forgot mike brown also raced some gncc. He podium in florda in 2011 i think. Dungey, musquin and kailub are all buddies now after kailub spent the summer at bakers place training.

I always wanted to see david knight run some mx. That guy had a jamds stewart-esque style in the woods, so explosive and aggressive. He would jump any jump in any conditions also. Hes probably the biggest pro rider i can think of
Plugga
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3/16/2017 7:57pm Edited Date/Time 3/16/2017 10:08pm
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-daily-post/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503438&objectid=11476999

"Townley won the event on debut in 2013, successfully defended it in 2014 and is now a three-time winner of the race.

Third overall was Reporoa 18-year-old Hadleigh Knight (Husqvarna TC250), with Pahiatua's national cross-country champion Paul Whibley (Yamaha YZ450F), Rotorua's Scott Birch (Honda CRF450) and Waitakere's Ethan Martens (Yamaha YZ450F) rounding out the top six finishers."

My answer would be yes.
endurox
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3/16/2017 8:11pm
Knight was pumped when he beat Everts in a big sand race in France 10 years ago.
rmoto003
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3/16/2017 9:37pm Edited Date/Time 3/16/2017 9:40pm
Didnt Ryan Sipes own the field in some form of off-road racing for a while? He was a top level mx rider but nowhere near the RV, Stew, Carmichael, Reed, Dungey, Roczen, etc level.

From what Ive seen, most top mx pro riders would go out and do pretty well in an off road race. They are all in very very good shape so that isn't really a concern.

Also seems like moto skills translate pretty easy over to off road stuff, but not the other way around. I dont hear too much about GNCC guys racing the off round of supercross, although I know some of them definitely have the skills... Haaker, etc
fins227
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3/16/2017 9:39pm
When this debate comes up not many will mention that Russell, Thad, Baylor boys etc. have been racing these same tracks for ten plus years, and the layouts don't change all that much. Top MX riders would not beat the top XC guys without putting in the time. Let's be real.
rhargrave431
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3/16/2017 9:43pm
I'd be more interested to see how Colton Haaker would do on a supercross track!
swvaripper
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3/16/2017 9:51pm
Aaron Plessinger came from an off-road back ground I think. He won an xc2 round at Steele creek a few years back before his SX and MX debut.
GuyB
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3/16/2017 10:11pm
I asked that question with some GNCC guys a couple years ago...(when Sipes was first trying it). The answer I got was that most of them are really good for the first two hours before of a three-hour race.

I'd think these would be as tough mentally as they are physically. There's an awful lot of info to process in that amount of time.
montesagold
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3/16/2017 11:00pm
I've attended at least one GNCC per year since 96' and have raced many tracks several times and all of them at least once. With that said they're is a huge difference in terrain at different locations. Henry winning in Florida (I was there) can't be compared to a full season. The track in okeechobee those years was 10 foot wide. I've seen many guys cross over and show unbelievable speed but they have a lot of trouble putting a full race together. What Sipes did at the ISDE was huge but that event has turned into sprint racing for the most part. Brownie did finish second toMullins in 2011 but under team managers order, mechanics lead him through a slow line on purpose to give their premier guy the win, whole other story all together. I think what he has done in the off-road world has been more impressive than any cross over ever. Competing in EnduroX against a field of riders with trials backgrounds is hard to believe. As for all out speed or endurance, many MX guys can do it but there is no substitute for a specialized background in the technical stuff. I would agree that Colton Haaker has the most all around talent on a dirt bike in the world right now. It's interesting that he was a MX kid and didn't ride off-road until his mid teens. I also think the two demographics re a lot closer than ever before which is a great trend.
3/17/2017 4:16am Edited Date/Time 3/17/2017 5:34am
rmoto003 wrote:
Didnt Ryan Sipes own the field in some form of off-road racing for a while? He was a top level mx rider but nowhere near the...
Didnt Ryan Sipes own the field in some form of off-road racing for a while? He was a top level mx rider but nowhere near the RV, Stew, Carmichael, Reed, Dungey, Roczen, etc level.

From what Ive seen, most top mx pro riders would go out and do pretty well in an off road race. They are all in very very good shape so that isn't really a concern.

Also seems like moto skills translate pretty easy over to off road stuff, but not the other way around. I dont hear too much about GNCC guys racing the off round of supercross, although I know some of them definitely have the skills... Haaker, etc
Ricky Dietrich did pretty well in I think it was 2009 outdoors? He had a lot of speed.
Pollock580
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3/17/2017 4:17am
Visa versa. Josh Strang qualified and ran 20-25th at at a few MX Nationals in the states a few years back. Most of the Mx guys would be fine in GNCC/WEC/ISDE events. Most of the current WEC guys are ex Europeans MX guys, very few are hardcore Enduro guys. Even Matty Phillips and Toby Price both had MX backgrounds. Hardcore off-road only guys like Watts, Salminen, Daniel Milner are pretty rare these days (not sure of all the US off-road guys background) That said, we had a young Aussie guy who is really off-road only kinda of guy, a top Aussie off-road guy, posting quicker times at the ISDE than Osbourne, as said before the cream will always rise to the top.
montesagold
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3/17/2017 6:53am
Pollock580 wrote:
Visa versa. Josh Strang qualified and ran 20-25th at at a few MX Nationals in the states a few years back. Most of the Mx guys...
Visa versa. Josh Strang qualified and ran 20-25th at at a few MX Nationals in the states a few years back. Most of the Mx guys would be fine in GNCC/WEC/ISDE events. Most of the current WEC guys are ex Europeans MX guys, very few are hardcore Enduro guys. Even Matty Phillips and Toby Price both had MX backgrounds. Hardcore off-road only guys like Watts, Salminen, Daniel Milner are pretty rare these days (not sure of all the US off-road guys background) That said, we had a young Aussie guy who is really off-road only kinda of guy, a top Aussie off-road guy, posting quicker times at the ISDE than Osbourne, as said before the cream will always rise to the top.
You're exactly right, the talent will rise to the top. Realistically years of dedicated training in particular discipline will be the ultimate factor. The original question was if one of the top MX guys crossed over, would they dominate. No way. I would love to see a event that riders raced in multiple events from MX to Offroad, it would be very had to determine the overall guy.
3/17/2017 7:03am
Fast riders are fast, no matter where you put them. But a 3 hour GNCC is generally brutal.

The fitness factor would be a major component, as would the idea of riding that blistering pace for 3 hours as opposed to 30min + 2 laps; not to say a majority of national motos aren't a challenge themselves.

Remember Pastrana tried one year; lead for the first hour, then dropped like a rock. Wacko Zacho same thing; blinding speed the first 2 hours, then struggled near the end. Not to say if a guy like a Blake Baggett or Jeremy Martin, two outstanding outdoors riders, couldn't figure it out and win races. To assume they would show up and win all the time? Bit of a stretch.

Sprint enduros would be a better comparison, IMO.
3/17/2017 7:09am Edited Date/Time 3/17/2017 7:09am
Ricky Dietrich did pretty well in I think it was 2009 outdoors? He had a lot of speed.
Finished 8th in second moto at GH on a "practice bike" in 09, then rode for Factory Kawi as a fill in; finished 6th overall twice as RedBud and High Point.

Then rode for Valli-Motorsports in 2011 in 11 rounds, finished as high as 5th @ Freestone. He never rode well in 1st motos, but always put on good rides on 2nd-tier equipment in 2nd motos.
DYE
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3/17/2017 7:21am Edited Date/Time 3/17/2017 9:06am
You're exactly right, the talent will rise to the top. Realistically years of dedicated training in particular discipline will be the ultimate factor. The original question...
You're exactly right, the talent will rise to the top. Realistically years of dedicated training in particular discipline will be the ultimate factor. The original question was if one of the top MX guys crossed over, would they dominate. No way. I would love to see a event that riders raced in multiple events from MX to Offroad, it would be very had to determine the overall guy.
^This!

I was actually thinking about making a thread over this after seeing the KR heart rate monitor topic but I know it would have went off the rails quick. So I'll slip the scenario in here. What if...

You take the reigning champs Dungey vs Russell. Put them on a neutral mx track and have them do a 30 min moto (what Dungey trains for). Then take the results and multiply them by 6 to equal the amount for a 3 hour race. Then the following day put them on a neutral off-road course and turn in a 3 hour race (what Russell trains for). Take the difference in times. Who wins?

(I know this is not a perfect scenario having to multiply the mx times but there are a few reasons I thought of it this way. For one Dungey doesn't train for a 3hr race so that would be unfair. Also it would be unsafe to go full speed for 3hrs on a mx track. Finally the reason to multiply the results is again fairness as it would be a huge advantage for KR to get 3hrs at his discipline and Dungey only 30min)

How awesome of a 2 day event would that be if you took the top 5 mx guys vs the top 5 xc guys and combine their times to see who wins, mx or xc?

Edit: Ooops! just saw similar scenarios have been suggested later on in the original KR heart rate thread.
agn5009
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3/17/2017 7:32am
You're exactly right, the talent will rise to the top. Realistically years of dedicated training in particular discipline will be the ultimate factor. The original question...
You're exactly right, the talent will rise to the top. Realistically years of dedicated training in particular discipline will be the ultimate factor. The original question was if one of the top MX guys crossed over, would they dominate. No way. I would love to see a event that riders raced in multiple events from MX to Offroad, it would be very had to determine the overall guy.
DYE wrote:
^This! I was actually thinking about making a thread over this after seeing the KR heart rate monitor topic but I know it would have went...
^This!

I was actually thinking about making a thread over this after seeing the KR heart rate monitor topic but I know it would have went off the rails quick. So I'll slip the scenario in here. What if...

You take the reigning champs Dungey vs Russell. Put them on a neutral mx track and have them do a 30 min moto (what Dungey trains for). Then take the results and multiply them by 6 to equal the amount for a 3 hour race. Then the following day put them on a neutral off-road course and turn in a 3 hour race (what Russell trains for). Take the difference in times. Who wins?

(I know this is not a perfect scenario having to multiply the mx times but there are a few reasons I thought of it this way. For one Dungey doesn't train for a 3hr race so that would be unfair. Also it would be unsafe to go full speed for 3hrs on a mx track. Finally the reason to multiply the results is again fairness as it would be a huge advantage for KR to get 3hrs at his discipline and Dungey only 30min)

How awesome of a 2 day event would that be if you took the top 5 mx guys vs the top 5 xc guys and combine their times to see who wins, mx or xc?

Edit: Ooops! just saw similar scenarios have been suggested later on in the original KR heart rate thread.
This is simple. Dungey would win the MX race and Russell would win the offroad race.
Titan1
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3/17/2017 7:34am
If RV, Dungey, Stewart, Cairoli, Herlings, Reed, RC focused on and Off road discipline they'd do the same there that they did/do in MX/SX...win a lot of races and championships. Because the same things that made them great at MX would make them great at Off road (talent, focus, drive, hard work, discipline).

Could they cross over with no training, no experience and dominate races and win a championship their first try? Doubtful...but they are freaks of nature in the talent and drive and focus department...so they'd absolutely figure it out.

There are several genres of off road...GNCC is just one of them...what if they tried National Hare and Hound? Totally different (it's takes a different mentality to hold it wide, in the dust, and over terrain you've never seen before). What about an enduro? Could they maintain their sprint speed while staying on their minute over a three or four hour day on the bike?
DYE
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3/17/2017 7:38am Edited Date/Time 3/17/2017 7:39am
You're exactly right, the talent will rise to the top. Realistically years of dedicated training in particular discipline will be the ultimate factor. The original question...
You're exactly right, the talent will rise to the top. Realistically years of dedicated training in particular discipline will be the ultimate factor. The original question was if one of the top MX guys crossed over, would they dominate. No way. I would love to see a event that riders raced in multiple events from MX to Offroad, it would be very had to determine the overall guy.
DYE wrote:
^This! I was actually thinking about making a thread over this after seeing the KR heart rate monitor topic but I know it would have went...
^This!

I was actually thinking about making a thread over this after seeing the KR heart rate monitor topic but I know it would have went off the rails quick. So I'll slip the scenario in here. What if...

You take the reigning champs Dungey vs Russell. Put them on a neutral mx track and have them do a 30 min moto (what Dungey trains for). Then take the results and multiply them by 6 to equal the amount for a 3 hour race. Then the following day put them on a neutral off-road course and turn in a 3 hour race (what Russell trains for). Take the difference in times. Who wins?

(I know this is not a perfect scenario having to multiply the mx times but there are a few reasons I thought of it this way. For one Dungey doesn't train for a 3hr race so that would be unfair. Also it would be unsafe to go full speed for 3hrs on a mx track. Finally the reason to multiply the results is again fairness as it would be a huge advantage for KR to get 3hrs at his discipline and Dungey only 30min)

How awesome of a 2 day event would that be if you took the top 5 mx guys vs the top 5 xc guys and combine their times to see who wins, mx or xc?

Edit: Ooops! just saw similar scenarios have been suggested later on in the original KR heart rate thread.
agn5009 wrote:
This is simple. Dungey would win the MX race and Russell would win the offroad race.
Of course they would always win at their own discipline. The scenario I laid out is not that simple, did you read it?
Monk
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3/17/2017 7:48am
GNCC isn't 'really' offroad... Yes it's in the trees, but not on single track but mostly on quad trails... Any Moto guy will do half decent in a GNCC. But throw them to something like a true offroad race such as the Blackwater (back when it was still going) and a Moto guy probably wouldn't finish...
StretchASU
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3/17/2017 7:55am
Monk wrote:
GNCC isn't 'really' offroad... Yes it's in the trees, but not on single track but mostly on quad trails... Any Moto guy will do half decent...
GNCC isn't 'really' offroad... Yes it's in the trees, but not on single track but mostly on quad trails... Any Moto guy will do half decent in a GNCC. But throw them to something like a true offroad race such as the Blackwater (back when it was still going) and a Moto guy probably wouldn't finish...
ge217
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3/17/2017 8:03am
Monk wrote:
GNCC isn't 'really' offroad... Yes it's in the trees, but not on single track but mostly on quad trails... Any Moto guy will do half decent...
GNCC isn't 'really' offroad... Yes it's in the trees, but not on single track but mostly on quad trails... Any Moto guy will do half decent in a GNCC. But throw them to something like a true offroad race such as the Blackwater (back when it was still going) and a Moto guy probably wouldn't finish...
So what you're saying is in the US we don't have a national off-road series in your eyes? Did you ever race the blackwater? I didn't so I can't say for sure. I don't think there was to much single track going on....
Titan1
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3/17/2017 9:01am
Monk wrote:
GNCC isn't 'really' offroad... Yes it's in the trees, but not on single track but mostly on quad trails... Any Moto guy will do half decent...
GNCC isn't 'really' offroad... Yes it's in the trees, but not on single track but mostly on quad trails... Any Moto guy will do half decent in a GNCC. But throw them to something like a true offroad race such as the Blackwater (back when it was still going) and a Moto guy probably wouldn't finish...
ge217 wrote:
So what you're saying is in the US we don't have a national off-road series in your eyes? Did you ever race the blackwater? I didn't...
So what you're saying is in the US we don't have a national off-road series in your eyes? Did you ever race the blackwater? I didn't so I can't say for sure. I don't think there was to much single track going on....
Off road is far more diverse than moto is...the GNCC's are far different from the Hare and Hounds which are far different from the Enduro series which is different from WORC's...East Hare scrambles are far different from West Hare Scrambles...and on and on and on.

The West based off road riders have a different skill set from the East based off road riders. West is desert and dust and rocks (for the most part) and the East coast is trees and roots and mud.

And I think its hard to call any one off road series a true "national" series...GNCC is most east coast...WORC and NHHA are West Coast, and there is very little rider cross over. There isn't really an off road series that has rounds in all corners of this country. (Reasons? much smaller budgets in off road...teams can't afford to criss cross the country...land use issues...it would be hard to find enough land on the east coast to run a 100 mile hare and hound, for example).
Titan1
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3/17/2017 9:07am
Monk wrote:
GNCC isn't 'really' offroad... Yes it's in the trees, but not on single track but mostly on quad trails... Any Moto guy will do half decent...
GNCC isn't 'really' offroad... Yes it's in the trees, but not on single track but mostly on quad trails... Any Moto guy will do half decent in a GNCC. But throw them to something like a true offroad race such as the Blackwater (back when it was still going) and a Moto guy probably wouldn't finish...
Moto guys wouldn't finish? Come on dude...
RyanD797
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3/17/2017 9:27am
Rodney Smith and Mike Kiedrowski come to mind.
ge217
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3/17/2017 9:39am
Belive me I understand what it takes to do both moto and off-road. I did both growing up and still ride both. Name is even is the results above. Also have raced a few races on the west coast. Done some desert riding in AZ, been on some killer trails in UT as well. You are partially right about different skill sets. A good off road rider will adapt in any conditions and rise to the top. I've been on 24 hr teams with Destry, Southerlin, Bell, Argubright, and a few others. Do they all ride well on the east? You bet. East coast guy could go out west and do the same thing. If a east coast guy goes out west he would need to have a little more moto skill he if wanted to do WORC's, for the other west coast series it would just take some adapting like it does for the guys I mentioned early come to the east.

It is hard to call any one off-road series a true national series, we do though. If factory support has an effort at the races I think the promoter has a right to call it a national series. WORC's, GNCC NHHA any series of these nature. The small budgets do hurt, kinda good though that the factory's offer support to multiple series and riders instead of one national series with only 2-3 rider on the teams going to each round. Land issue, yes west coast has way way more open land to use.
Titan1
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3/17/2017 10:05am
ge217 wrote:
Belive me I understand what it takes to do both moto and off-road. I did both growing up and still ride both. Name is even is...
Belive me I understand what it takes to do both moto and off-road. I did both growing up and still ride both. Name is even is the results above. Also have raced a few races on the west coast. Done some desert riding in AZ, been on some killer trails in UT as well. You are partially right about different skill sets. A good off road rider will adapt in any conditions and rise to the top. I've been on 24 hr teams with Destry, Southerlin, Bell, Argubright, and a few others. Do they all ride well on the east? You bet. East coast guy could go out west and do the same thing. If a east coast guy goes out west he would need to have a little more moto skill he if wanted to do WORC's, for the other west coast series it would just take some adapting like it does for the guys I mentioned early come to the east.

It is hard to call any one off-road series a true national series, we do though. If factory support has an effort at the races I think the promoter has a right to call it a national series. WORC's, GNCC NHHA any series of these nature. The small budgets do hurt, kinda good though that the factory's offer support to multiple series and riders instead of one national series with only 2-3 rider on the teams going to each round. Land issue, yes west coast has way way more open land to use.
Hey man...you've got more experience than I do (I've never ridden on the east coast at all)...so I absolutely respect your opinion. And I hope you didn't take what I said as a knock on any one rider or series. I'm an off road guy...I love off road...I probably get to defensive when people try to knock the riders or the series's. So, honestly, I meant no disrespect to anyone.

I understand why they call those series' national series...and I agree that they are. National caliber riders, national caliber promoters, and national caliber competition. They are national championships. Again, my only point was that because the terrain in America is so diverse, its impossible for a off road series to truly compete in every corner of the country (which, usually denotes a national title...why 250 SX are regional series while the 450's are national).



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