Would the 450 class be better if replaced with 350?

logan_140
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Edited Date/Time 7/21/2016 7:52am
Smaller cc's usually equate to better racing, probably less injuries too. Although I have heard 350's are just as fast as a 450. Just a thought?
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MR. X
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7/21/2016 7:50am
Yes ! More changes !
7/21/2016 8:01am
I don't get why it would equal better racing, roczen would still be dominating on a 350.
Bearuno
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7/21/2016 8:29am
It wouldn't make a bloody bit of difference.

I'd be surprised to see much difference in injury rates between any class - in any era.

Leave the Premier class alone - well, equivalency is the only thing I want to see come about, that, and the return of a 125 class at the highest levels of racing

The Shop

avidchimp
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7/21/2016 8:32am
Ah, the ghost of Steve Whitelock appears again.
RG1
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7/21/2016 8:34am
Guiseppe?
ga_pike
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7/21/2016 8:39am
I'd be in favor of that move... but, they would have to leave the 2T displacement at 250 and not reduce it. We already know they won't increase 2T displacement.

IMO, the racing at the 250 level has been better the past couple of years. It seems that as displacement goes yo, you will see less guys fighting for wins.
ATKpilot99
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7/21/2016 8:40am
Throughout the history of motocross there has been great racing and boring racing regardless of engine size . It really doesn't matter.
yak651
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7/21/2016 8:43am
IMO the less HP the better the racing, just seems that people are closer together. Maybe it's because elite talents like Kenny aren't in the class, but even when he was on 250s seemed that more people were closer to his speed. Just seems like more people that are able to go WFO the better.
ATKpilot99
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7/21/2016 8:47am
yak651 wrote:
IMO the less HP the better the racing, just seems that people are closer together. Maybe it's because elite talents like Kenny aren't in the class...
IMO the less HP the better the racing, just seems that people are closer together. Maybe it's because elite talents like Kenny aren't in the class, but even when he was on 250s seemed that more people were closer to his speed. Just seems like more people that are able to go WFO the better.
It's more about who's racing . RC and Barnett were capable of providing some very boring 125 races.
ga_pike
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7/21/2016 8:48am
Kx125rider wrote:
I don't get why it would equal better racing, roczen would still be dominating on a 350.
Did Roczen dominate on 250's? It seems that as displacement increases, there are less guys willing/able to push the bike "to the limit".

Roczen, Tomac, Dungey... they are on another level right now. Barcia is close... I'm not sure if he has dropped off from last summer or if KR/ET progressed more. What I do know is guys like Baggett who were cream of the crop are now fighting just to make the podium. Again, I dont know exactly why, but there are more guys fighting for the win at the 250 level the last few years.

It also seems like we see more injuries that we used to see on 250 2 strokes. That may not be true and I haven't seen any data either way, it's just an observation.
fpandjic
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7/21/2016 8:50am
I doubt switch to 350 would result in less injuries. Just the opposite, they would have to be more aggressive with 350 IMO
7/21/2016 8:52am
Basically we have no data available to show empirically in this era what displacement adjustments would do given the current level of competition because it's been a 2 horse show for sometime of 250 four strokes and 450 four strokes.

In many other forms of racing LESS HP equals tighter racing. Many of these forms include racecars with roll cages and even RC cars where fear is not an issue. Yet the slower the vehicle the closer the racing.

Excitement can come in many forms, and maybe 68 mph down a hill looks more interesting than 58 mph, but I think 48mph with the body english required in the 1990s and prior, combined with 3 competitors bar to bar would always be the most exciting.
rclmx159
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7/21/2016 8:53am
I would change the format for Supercross to 20 laps in the 250 class and 25 laps in the 450 class. The races are over too fast.
VRR7
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7/21/2016 8:56am
MOTOGP went to 800 cc and it was a failure ! It became overly expensive the factories had to make more power from less cc = big $$$ - Racing go boring because there was less overtaking as it was harder to overtake. Suzuki and Kawasaki where forced pulled out and MOTOGP lost TV priority over SBK. Then they went back to 1000 cc - Totally FUBAR. Now they had to re tool rebuild another sized bike.

As any racer know the cost of just changing brands is huge - All the spares and rnd one gained is lost and one has to build up new spares and knowledge for the new manufacturer. It not just a simple change brands.

Given that the 450 cc is now the standard size for all - The cost involved in the whim does not make sense given economics and all considered ? 450 is a good size why would they change at all. A better consideration is how to bring back 2 T which made it easier for the consumer to enter into to MX and grow the sport economically speaking. Its all about will it Grow the Sport - Making it more expensive to race does not grow the sport of MX much - Making the premier class 350 will cost more as the engines will be more stressed and more built etc etc - Not a good growth concept. Will the racing be more exiting ? IMO the 450 class is more exiting than the 250 class at the moment - One can argue they are equal in spectacle so no grow on that front.

Moving Dakar to 450 max was a good idea as it has grown the Rally because most manufacturers have a 450 and the standard and so it opened up the Rally for more competition. Messing with the industry standards is big ( Any industry )
mx836
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7/21/2016 9:01am Edited Date/Time 7/21/2016 9:02am
Kx125rider wrote:
I don't get why it would equal better racing, roczen would still be dominating on a 350.
Not necessarily. Tomac`s style lends itself to a more balls out type of racing which would benefit him on a smaller bike like it did on 250s. Might not make for better racing (although it probably would) but it would definitely shake things up. Oh, and possibly less people sawing themselves off.
colintrax
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7/21/2016 9:57am
VRR7 wrote:
MOTOGP went to 800 cc and it was a failure ! It became overly expensive the factories had to make more power from less cc =...
MOTOGP went to 800 cc and it was a failure ! It became overly expensive the factories had to make more power from less cc = big $$$ - Racing go boring because there was less overtaking as it was harder to overtake. Suzuki and Kawasaki where forced pulled out and MOTOGP lost TV priority over SBK. Then they went back to 1000 cc - Totally FUBAR. Now they had to re tool rebuild another sized bike.

As any racer know the cost of just changing brands is huge - All the spares and rnd one gained is lost and one has to build up new spares and knowledge for the new manufacturer. It not just a simple change brands.

Given that the 450 cc is now the standard size for all - The cost involved in the whim does not make sense given economics and all considered ? 450 is a good size why would they change at all. A better consideration is how to bring back 2 T which made it easier for the consumer to enter into to MX and grow the sport economically speaking. Its all about will it Grow the Sport - Making it more expensive to race does not grow the sport of MX much - Making the premier class 350 will cost more as the engines will be more stressed and more built etc etc - Not a good growth concept. Will the racing be more exiting ? IMO the 450 class is more exiting than the 250 class at the moment - One can argue they are equal in spectacle so no grow on that front.

Moving Dakar to 450 max was a good idea as it has grown the Rally because most manufacturers have a 450 and the standard and so it opened up the Rally for more competition. Messing with the industry standards is big ( Any industry )
You can't really compare motogp.
Beast666
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7/21/2016 10:06am
You could put everyone on Strider bikes and it would still result in a few riders runing away with the race because they have the desire to win and the fitness.
motomike137
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7/21/2016 10:12am Edited Date/Time 7/21/2016 10:13am
Nope, the cream will still rise and devastate ala Kenny and the injuries will still take guys out diluting the comp.

You will get more broken motors though.
hillbilly
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7/21/2016 10:30am
They should race 900cc v twins with a naked stripper on the back.
Phillip_Lamb
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7/21/2016 10:31am
logan_140 wrote:
Smaller cc's usually equate to better racing, probably less injuries too. Although I have heard 350's are just as fast as a 450. Just a thought?
its not necessarily a 350 that would make better racing, in fact a 250 2t would as well.

I lies in the nature of a 450, with the extra weight and power, guys have to be easy on the throttle and in some cases guys have them DEtuned, ala Pourcels and even RC's rmz was rumored to have around 55hp, all in the name of being able to ride harder.

on a 350 or a 250 the bikes can be ridden more aggressively. I actually just got off a 450 for this reason. it had so much power and weight i couldnt ride it hard, so diving to insides or railing outside had to be done with more finess
Eddie_E
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7/21/2016 10:55am
Just limit the CDI to 10K rpm and a max of 11:1 compression for the 450's.
slowgti
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7/21/2016 10:55am
Inlet restrictors on the 450's? The Ama/fim could pick a supplier and a price point. Make the penalties so severe that it would be stupid to cheat.

Just an idea
logan_140
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7/21/2016 11:17am
VRR7 wrote:
MOTOGP went to 800 cc and it was a failure ! It became overly expensive the factories had to make more power from less cc =...
MOTOGP went to 800 cc and it was a failure ! It became overly expensive the factories had to make more power from less cc = big $$$ - Racing go boring because there was less overtaking as it was harder to overtake. Suzuki and Kawasaki where forced pulled out and MOTOGP lost TV priority over SBK. Then they went back to 1000 cc - Totally FUBAR. Now they had to re tool rebuild another sized bike.

As any racer know the cost of just changing brands is huge - All the spares and rnd one gained is lost and one has to build up new spares and knowledge for the new manufacturer. It not just a simple change brands.

Given that the 450 cc is now the standard size for all - The cost involved in the whim does not make sense given economics and all considered ? 450 is a good size why would they change at all. A better consideration is how to bring back 2 T which made it easier for the consumer to enter into to MX and grow the sport economically speaking. Its all about will it Grow the Sport - Making it more expensive to race does not grow the sport of MX much - Making the premier class 350 will cost more as the engines will be more stressed and more built etc etc - Not a good growth concept. Will the racing be more exiting ? IMO the 450 class is more exiting than the 250 class at the moment - One can argue they are equal in spectacle so no grow on that front.

Moving Dakar to 450 max was a good idea as it has grown the Rally because most manufacturers have a 450 and the standard and so it opened up the Rally for more competition. Messing with the industry standards is big ( Any industry )
The 300cc moto gp or what ever the lowest cc is they race is INSANE racing bar to bar start to finish
Robgvx
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7/21/2016 11:24am
Cairoli is back on the 350 this weekend.
hillbilly
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7/21/2016 11:47am
Robgvx wrote:
Cairoli is back on the 350 this weekend.
Desperado,why don't you come to your senses
Speeder757
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7/21/2016 1:06pm
Classes should be

400cc 4 Stroke
300cc 2 Stroke

250cc 4 Stroke
200cc 2 Stroke
colintrax
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7/21/2016 1:12pm
slowgti wrote:
Inlet restrictors on the 450's? The Ama/fim could pick a supplier and a price point. Make the penalties so severe that it would be stupid to...
Inlet restrictors on the 450's? The Ama/fim could pick a supplier and a price point. Make the penalties so severe that it would be stupid to cheat.

Just an idea
No. God no. Please don't turn Moto into Nascar where everything is overly regulated.

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