Why we need more "Low tech" bikes...

WORCSRacer
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 12:24pm
This is not about two vs four, its about what riders really need...

Q. How come there seems to be no push to improve the mini's?

A. Why bother no one wants it and because the racing doesn't need it and isn't improved by it.

Seems these size bikes are all about the $$$ or lack there of , which could be what saves this sport. Good news is there seems to be no shortage of competition or fun in the 50 through supermini and Schoolboy racing and yet its all low tech and by in large "old" designs. No FI, and pretty low tech. In some cases, I won't mention any companies by name (KMC) are running a twenty year old product, yet it seems the racing is as good as ever. The biggest loser I see is Honda. Hello... I think this sport could benefit from just rolling out the 2005's models again in all cc sizes and strokes...

Whatever keeps the purchase price down to get more people into the sport. No complaint however if the OEM's don't join in. In fact I don't think it matters if the Japanese OEM's get it or not. I was noticing today at my local MX track people are riding just about anything they want these days with very little concern for having the "it" bike and for the first time in my memory KTM's were the most popular bike at the MX track today. Note to the Japanese OEM's (in case you haven't noticed) the sport and the customers are leaving you.

Now if we could just get these guys to start racing instead of practice riding that be a really cool thing.
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EvanR127
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8/7/2011 8:06pm
You are talking about kids bikes not adult size. But for adults a 125 is about as cheap you can go.
JB 19
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8/7/2011 8:11pm
In another thread I suggested 125 B and C and 250 B and C classes at the local level. A step further would even call for carburetors with a mechanical float. These classes are 2 stroke only of course.
Bruce372
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8/7/2011 8:11pm
its not about the bike

the best way to get more people into the sport is having more places to ride.

if you want more people racing, it might be worth simplifying the classes so you dont spend 12 hours at the track to ride 2 x 3 lap motos.
shmoo
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Bruce372 wrote:
its not about the bike the best way to get more people into the sport is having more places to ride. if you want more people...
its not about the bike

the best way to get more people into the sport is having more places to ride.

if you want more people racing, it might be worth simplifying the classes so you dont spend 12 hours at the track to ride 2 x 3 lap motos.
Bingo!

The Shop

Bruce372
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newmann wrote:
The Japanese mfgs. have lost sight of who the customers are and should be ashamed of what they've done to the motocross market. A step back...
The Japanese mfgs. have lost sight of who the customers are and should be ashamed of what they've done to the motocross market. A step back would be a step forward.

http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/How-is-the-pit-bike-marke…
dude, you can sell all the bikes you want, but its moot if there is nowhere to ride them.
CamP
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8/7/2011 8:57pm Edited Date/Time 8/7/2011 9:01pm
newmann wrote:
The Japanese mfgs. have lost sight of who the customers are and should be ashamed of what they've done to the motocross market. A step back...
The Japanese mfgs. have lost sight of who the customers are and should be ashamed of what they've done to the motocross market. A step back would be a step forward.

http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/How-is-the-pit-bike-marke…
Bruce372 wrote:
dude, you can sell all the bikes you want, but its moot if there is nowhere to ride them.
You must live in the wrong place. There are over 20 tracks within 100 miles of my house.

The modern mx bike is great but it's developed into something the average Joe can't afford. The sanctioning bodies need to put a lid on it. Outlawing fuel injection would be a good start.
Jake-247
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8/7/2011 9:21pm
Bruce372 wrote:
its not about the bike the best way to get more people into the sport is having more places to ride. if you want more people...
its not about the bike

the best way to get more people into the sport is having more places to ride.

if you want more people racing, it might be worth simplifying the classes so you dont spend 12 hours at the track to ride 2 x 3 lap motos.
shmoo wrote:
Bingo!
X3.
WORCSRacer
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8/7/2011 9:22pm Edited Date/Time 8/7/2011 9:24pm
newmann wrote:
The Japanese mfgs. have lost sight of who the customers are and should be ashamed of what they've done to the motocross market. A step back...
The Japanese mfgs. have lost sight of who the customers are and should be ashamed of what they've done to the motocross market. A step back would be a step forward.

http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/How-is-the-pit-bike-marke…
Bruce372 wrote:
dude, you can sell all the bikes you want, but its moot if there is nowhere to ride them.
CamP wrote:
You must live in the wrong place. There are over 20 tracks within 100 miles of my house. The modern mx bike is great but it's...
You must live in the wrong place. There are over 20 tracks within 100 miles of my house.

The modern mx bike is great but it's developed into something the average Joe can't afford. The sanctioning bodies need to put a lid on it. Outlawing fuel injection would be a good start.
Lots of tracks to ride here too. IDK about outlawing FI, I kinda think that FI probably isn't a ton more expensive than and FCR carb. Who cares anyway? Really did it make you any faster? I've been riding a 450SX all week and haven't missed it. What Japan seems to be missing is the ground swell to simpler bikes and not just by the newbies. I have two friends that are racing older bikes. One is on a completely rebuilt 05 CR250 and one is on a bitchin 07 KX250 between them they have way less than a new four fifty invested but they are having a great time and unfortunately they are freakin just as fast as before!! This is not to mention another friend that just keeps pounding away on his 07 YZ450. Simply put, It's just not the bike. If you think because the Ryan's win on their respective bikes and that has ANY relation to what normal people need to win or can ride is just nuts.

Its the rider at every level below the top 40 AMA Pro's

The big issue is cost we need 5 to 6K bikes. If that means two strokes then so be it if they can do it with an oh five spec fourstroke that is just dandy with me too. I want to see more racers and more racing. As pointed out above simpler formating and longer motos are needed to pull people back to the races. People love to bag on REM Sat MX but that is how MX should be.
user760a
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8/7/2011 9:33pm
Bruce372 wrote:
its not about the bike the best way to get more people into the sport is having more places to ride. if you want more people...
its not about the bike

the best way to get more people into the sport is having more places to ride.

if you want more people racing, it might be worth simplifying the classes so you dont spend 12 hours at the track to ride 2 x 3 lap motos.
exactly
I have not raced MX in years because I was sick of spending an entire day sitting on my ass for 8 laps. I race off road now, ride practice tracks and open practice days for my moto fix

as far as having more places to ride goes....that is a no brainer. hate to say it but noise kiled many long time ride spots i used to have.....this happened (coincidentally) roughly about the same time loud four strokes took over.... so now I have a bad ass 55 HP fuel injected 450 that in my opinion kicks ass in every way.....and nowhere to ride it
machine
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8/8/2011 3:58am
WORCSRacer wrote:
Lots of tracks to ride here too. IDK about outlawing FI, I kinda think that FI probably isn't a ton more expensive than and FCR carb...
Lots of tracks to ride here too. IDK about outlawing FI, I kinda think that FI probably isn't a ton more expensive than and FCR carb. Who cares anyway? Really did it make you any faster? I've been riding a 450SX all week and haven't missed it. What Japan seems to be missing is the ground swell to simpler bikes and not just by the newbies. I have two friends that are racing older bikes. One is on a completely rebuilt 05 CR250 and one is on a bitchin 07 KX250 between them they have way less than a new four fifty invested but they are having a great time and unfortunately they are freakin just as fast as before!! This is not to mention another friend that just keeps pounding away on his 07 YZ450. Simply put, It's just not the bike. If you think because the Ryan's win on their respective bikes and that has ANY relation to what normal people need to win or can ride is just nuts.

Its the rider at every level below the top 40 AMA Pro's

The big issue is cost we need 5 to 6K bikes. If that means two strokes then so be it if they can do it with an oh five spec fourstroke that is just dandy with me too. I want to see more racers and more racing. As pointed out above simpler formating and longer motos are needed to pull people back to the races. People love to bag on REM Sat MX but that is how MX should be.
Your kind of sending different messages here, on one hand your post says "low tech", but then your saying 4-strokes are okay. We all know 4-strokes are not "low tech" machines, FI or carb models.

I'm now 44 and have just recently figured out that more HP or a certain model of bike isn't going to make me any faster. All my buddies and myself in the past have thought we could get the advantage over each other if we had this bike or that bike, but it never seems to make much difference, our riding ability always trumps the bike. Smile
machine
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8/8/2011 4:11am
One more thought.......

I also think that the Japs have painted themselves into a corner with the "high tech" 4-stroke bikes. They have advertised the technology as the greatest thing in the world, now it would be hard for them to go back to a simple, cheaper, low tech bike.
newmann
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8/8/2011 4:46am
machine wrote:
One more thought....... I also think that the Japs have painted themselves into a corner with the "high tech" 4-stroke bikes. They have advertised the technology...
One more thought.......

I also think that the Japs have painted themselves into a corner with the "high tech" 4-stroke bikes. They have advertised the technology as the greatest thing in the world, now it would be hard for them to go back to a simple, cheaper, low tech bike.
But the price gap has gotten so far out of whack that it would make perfect sense to offer a realistic less expensive alternative. Think 1974, Yamaha, YZ and MX lines. There were more bike sales back then with no internet, no mx on the tele and not a dozen mx specific magazines. The so called entry level dirt bikes (wouldn't make the mistake of referring to them as MX ) offered by the Japanese mfgs. are pathetic at best.
chase383
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8/8/2011 8:12am
WORCSRacer wrote:
Lots of tracks to ride here too. IDK about outlawing FI, I kinda think that FI probably isn't a ton more expensive than and FCR carb...
Lots of tracks to ride here too. IDK about outlawing FI, I kinda think that FI probably isn't a ton more expensive than and FCR carb. Who cares anyway? Really did it make you any faster? I've been riding a 450SX all week and haven't missed it. What Japan seems to be missing is the ground swell to simpler bikes and not just by the newbies. I have two friends that are racing older bikes. One is on a completely rebuilt 05 CR250 and one is on a bitchin 07 KX250 between them they have way less than a new four fifty invested but they are having a great time and unfortunately they are freakin just as fast as before!! This is not to mention another friend that just keeps pounding away on his 07 YZ450. Simply put, It's just not the bike. If you think because the Ryan's win on their respective bikes and that has ANY relation to what normal people need to win or can ride is just nuts.

Its the rider at every level below the top 40 AMA Pro's

The big issue is cost we need 5 to 6K bikes. If that means two strokes then so be it if they can do it with an oh five spec fourstroke that is just dandy with me too. I want to see more racers and more racing. As pointed out above simpler formating and longer motos are needed to pull people back to the races. People love to bag on REM Sat MX but that is how MX should be.
Your last paragraph is about as valid as it gets.
You should be able to buy a new 125 for roughly $5000. Especially a YZ which hasn't changed in years. I don't think Suzuki would have a hard time bringing the RM125 back either. Simplified classes with longer moto's woud also help.
Track design (and I think this has gotten better lately) would also help. New riders don't want to show up somewhere and see an 85 foot triple. I know people say.. "Well you don't have to jump it".. but I think it still gets in their heads.

Last point, I really like racing on Saturdays. I realize this may not be feasible for everyone but I love coming home from a race on a Satuday night, knowing that I have all day Sunday to recover before starting the work week.
Wandell
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8/8/2011 10:08am
Yeah, it would be great if Yamaha would continue producing the YZ125 and YZ250 as they are, but just cut the price.
thatdad
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8/8/2011 10:46am
The bikes have gotten faster, but that hasn't made it better. There was no more exciting racing than watching the old 125 class. There is nothing more boring than watching the 450s tractor around the track.

Granted, it is easier to ride a four stroke faster, but when everyone has the same equipment, there is no advantage.
CamP
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8/8/2011 11:01am Edited Date/Time 8/8/2011 11:07am
Wandell wrote:
Yeah, it would be great if Yamaha would continue producing the YZ125 and YZ250 as they are, but just cut the price.
Yamaha is selling the same YZ250 today that they sold in 2005 for $6,000. The only real difference is Yamaha has reduced the number of units produced to keep demand up enough to raise the MSRP $1,000. That really sucks because we should be able to go down to the local Yamaha dealer and buy a new YZ250 for $6k, but Yamaha is raping those of us that want a new 2-stroke by keeping supply low and prices high.
TeamGreen
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8/8/2011 11:34am
I've brought it up before; but...

If you built a "KD" type bike (From the Kawi nomenclature system"...)

KDX 220 motor (Torquey, Dependable, CHEAP!)

KX125 chassis (Cicrca 2006-2009. Better than the last KDX chassis; yet, identical build cost)

Suspension Components: Forks and Shock from KLX250 (2011) 9-10" of travel.

Body-work: Mix of current KX/KLX

Add-ons: Kick-Stand, KDX type lighting, Spark Arrestor (KD & KE variant would make sense. Like KTM's XC v. EXC)

Price: $3999 ALL-DAY.

All the Toolings paid for!
Make it in Thailand.
The Build cost would be LESS than a KLX140L ($3249).

Caveats: California Green Sticker v. Red Sticker...gonna have to give them a version with the boat-anchor KLX250/300 motor. C.A.R.B. killed the 2T!
Btw, KLX250S already cert'd in Cali and sells for $4999 w/all the electronics and liabilities (An assigned "charge-off" to the fckn lawyers!)
EastFlorida
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8/8/2011 11:55am Edited Date/Time 8/8/2011 11:57am
Why does Suzuki choose not to import their RM125 & RM250 into the US but does so elsewhere? I would believe they would follow Yamaha. Does it cost more to import into the US or GBR?
mxrose3
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8/8/2011 12:17pm
Why does Suzuki choose not to import their RM125 & RM250 into the US but does so elsewhere? I would believe they would follow Yamaha. Does...
Why does Suzuki choose not to import their RM125 & RM250 into the US but does so elsewhere? I would believe they would follow Yamaha. Does it cost more to import into the US or GBR?
It would cut into their sales of 4 strokes. Which already is hurting.
Hank_Thrill
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8/8/2011 12:22pm
The bikes are fine - it's the economy that's messed up! Wadges have stagnated, the middle class is vanishing, jobs are being shipped overseas, and the cost of living is skyrocketing.
EastFlorida
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8/8/2011 12:27pm
Why does Suzuki choose not to import their RM125 & RM250 into the US but does so elsewhere? I would believe they would follow Yamaha. Does...
Why does Suzuki choose not to import their RM125 & RM250 into the US but does so elsewhere? I would believe they would follow Yamaha. Does it cost more to import into the US or GBR?
mxrose3 wrote:
It would cut into their sales of 4 strokes. Which already is hurting.
If that's true, then why import them to GBR? Wouldn't it hurt their 4 stroke sales there as well?
8/8/2011 12:49pm
newmann wrote:
The Japanese mfgs. have lost sight of who the customers are and should be ashamed of what they've done to the motocross market. A step back...
The Japanese mfgs. have lost sight of who the customers are and should be ashamed of what they've done to the motocross market. A step back would be a step forward.

http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/How-is-the-pit-bike-marke…
Bruce372 wrote:
dude, you can sell all the bikes you want, but its moot if there is nowhere to ride them.
Lack of tracks is mostly due to NOISE and the lack of anyone (besides Rock) being dedicated to fixing such an easy problem
burn1986
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8/8/2011 1:32pm
No one is listening, and no one (OEMs, Promoters, AMA) really cares enough to do something. Like I said before, the Japs don't care if racing dries up in the US, they will simply pull out of dirt bikes altogether. No one in the AMA will buck this either.
WORCSRacer
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8/8/2011 2:18pm
burn1986 wrote:
No one is listening, and no one (OEMs, Promoters, AMA) really cares enough to do something. Like I said before, the Japs don't care if racing...
No one is listening, and no one (OEMs, Promoters, AMA) really cares enough to do something. Like I said before, the Japs don't care if racing dries up in the US, they will simply pull out of dirt bikes altogether. No one in the AMA will buck this either.
All the Japanese OEM's invested in four stroke technology. Everything 2011 being sold today started development prior to 2008. They made the choice to go to four strokes based on the market demand and projections from 2006. They are stuck and fucked. My point to them is stop digging deeper in the hole they find themselves. Produce something they can sell for 5 to 6 grand. If that means recycling their oh five model two stroke lines FINE!!!! Just put affordable metal in the showroom.

Layoff the promoters dude! They just put on the races people want. Do you actually think they want to put on races no one wants to race?? You want to why there are thirty classes and a lack of even displacement racing? It's because of contingency!! Now that the OEM's have dropped almost all contingency screw it pair the classes down and let's have longer Motos. Just don't complain that you have to race against twenty five other guys and it's harder to win...

Finally if the OEM's pull out don't worry so much. it will simply expand what going on now, people riding what they already have and figuring out it is not the bike holding them back...
JB 19
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8/8/2011 2:31pm
The bikes are fine - it's the economy that's messed up! Wadges have stagnated, the middle class is vanishing, jobs are being shipped overseas, and the...
The bikes are fine - it's the economy that's messed up! Wadges have stagnated, the middle class is vanishing, jobs are being shipped overseas, and the cost of living is skyrocketing.
I've seen this unfold in Ohio in the last 10 years and have talked about it with friends. There used to be so many good paying factory jobs in Ohio that let a guy buy his boys dirt bikes and go racing.

Thousands and thousands of those jobs are gone and with the jobs go the money and with the money goes the toys.
CamP
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8/8/2011 4:24pm
The bikes are fine - it's the economy that's messed up! Wadges have stagnated, the middle class is vanishing, jobs are being shipped overseas, and the...
The bikes are fine - it's the economy that's messed up! Wadges have stagnated, the middle class is vanishing, jobs are being shipped overseas, and the cost of living is skyrocketing.
The bikes aren't fine. They cost substantially more compared to the bikes of the past. For example, I paid $3,500 for a new 1993 KX250. Using the consumer price index, that's $5,467.31 in today's money. The economy may be crap right now but the sport would be doing a hell of a lot better if you could go to your local dealer and buy a new KX250 for $5,500.
reded
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8/8/2011 4:30pm
CamP wrote:
The bikes aren't fine. They cost substantially more compared to the bikes of the past. For example, I paid $3,500 for a new 1993 KX250. Using...
The bikes aren't fine. They cost substantially more compared to the bikes of the past. For example, I paid $3,500 for a new 1993 KX250. Using the consumer price index, that's $5,467.31 in today's money. The economy may be crap right now but the sport would be doing a hell of a lot better if you could go to your local dealer and buy a new KX250 for $5,500.
This is the smartest post I've read all day, probably all week.
haydos25
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8/8/2011 4:54pm
How many weekend warriors need launch control?
None of them NEED it. But im sure a few of them WANT it.

I cant help but laugh when i hear Americans complain about wanting more Low Tech bikes. America is the land of the aftermarket MX accesory. Nearly every bike i've ever seen on US forums and at US tracks is done up to the nines with aftermarket pipes, clamps, rims, graphics etc. etc. How many weekend warriors need all of these things?

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