Why are 2 stroke motors not rubber mounted?

Markee
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Edited Date/Time 9/25/2014 11:13pm
I see all these AL frame 2 stroke builds to modern 250/300 motors putting out a lot of vibration. You see rubber mounted handlebar products stock and not stock to curve the issue, but I have never seen a rubber mount that would reduce the issue at the source, the MOTOR.

Another motor that vibrates terrible is a V-Twin harley-davidson, they experimented in the 80s on a few models and went full on rubber mount on softails in 97, and most bike from 02 04 on..

I'm not talking about a mount with the durometer hardness rating as a tennis ball, but more of a boot sole rating.

I guess I'm more curious of the disadvantages? Thoughts?
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roost251
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9/23/2014 6:50am
Well some Harley engines are rubber mounted, others are solid mounted and "internal balanced" so the factory feels its ok not to rubber mount.

#1 reason, its a competition motorcycle, the frame attachment points are a key part to frame flex and stiffness. couldn't achieve the same results if you rubber mounted it, just like you will never see a road race bike with a rubber mounted engine.
Homey55
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9/23/2014 9:40am
JGR experamented with it...



macz400
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9/23/2014 10:27am
I could definitely use some vibration help with my 12 250sx. That thing is bad!

The Shop

4stroke4DWIN
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9/23/2014 10:31am
I had my engine mount bolts come loose on my 125 a few months back, aside from the vibration what tipped me off was the bike felt like it was losing power. I was like WTF is going on with this thing. Went into the pits and checked them, tightened everything and all was good. Maybe they don't use rubber mounts because of a loss in torque? I don't know really, might of been all in my head, prolly was.....Laughing
IWreckALot
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9/23/2014 10:42am
I had my engine mount bolts come loose on my 125 a few months back, aside from the vibration what tipped me off was the bike...
I had my engine mount bolts come loose on my 125 a few months back, aside from the vibration what tipped me off was the bike felt like it was losing power. I was like WTF is going on with this thing. Went into the pits and checked them, tightened everything and all was good. Maybe they don't use rubber mounts because of a loss in torque? I don't know really, might of been all in my head, prolly was.....Laughing
This is my first concern but with rubber mounts, it shouldn't be losing much power. I could see it losing a little power but not much. I'm no engineer and I could be wrong. All I know is my 250 about rattles my chiclets loose. Been having problems with my hands lately too.
smrscott
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9/23/2014 1:08pm
Pull your engine apart and check the crank - it might be out of true - or shim the engine mounts - you might have the frame bound up when you tighten everything. if there are small gaps - use thin shims (sometimes even suspension shims) to make sure you are not binding up the frame when you tighten everything. This is an old trick that used to help two-strokes - all of the OEM (especially Kawasaki) used to shim the engines and make sure the cranks were true on most of the magazine test bikes before they were given out.
mark_swart
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9/23/2014 1:30pm
smrscott wrote:
Pull your engine apart and check the crank - it might be out of true - or shim the engine mounts - you might have the...
Pull your engine apart and check the crank - it might be out of true - or shim the engine mounts - you might have the frame bound up when you tighten everything. if there are small gaps - use thin shims (sometimes even suspension shims) to make sure you are not binding up the frame when you tighten everything. This is an old trick that used to help two-strokes - all of the OEM (especially Kawasaki) used to shim the engines and make sure the cranks were true on most of the magazine test bikes before they were given out.
How do you do this -- loosen motor mounts and install shims anywhere there is a gap?
smrscott
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9/23/2014 1:34pm
Yes - at the motor mounts and at the frame/swingarm union - need to get a bunch of very thin shims. If there is a huge gap - at least split the difference so you are putting less of a bind on the frame when you tighten everything down.
BobbyM
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9/23/2014 1:38pm
I had my engine mount bolts come loose on my 125 a few months back, aside from the vibration what tipped me off was the bike...
I had my engine mount bolts come loose on my 125 a few months back, aside from the vibration what tipped me off was the bike felt like it was losing power. I was like WTF is going on with this thing. Went into the pits and checked them, tightened everything and all was good. Maybe they don't use rubber mounts because of a loss in torque? I don't know really, might of been all in my head, prolly was.....Laughing
Bingo... Wasted energy
philG
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9/23/2014 1:41pm
Simple answer is stiffness.... rubber mounted motor means its no part of the chassis properly , and that will induce flex.

When Zach Osborne was on Bike It Yamaha here in the UK i was told that not only was he very hard on motors (think a set of cases were shot after 3 meetings) , he could also feel the bike go 'off' if the motor mounts and swingarm loosened off. Wasnt unusual for him to come in and get them redone , and go back out with out changing anything else.

I cant remember who told me that , but i was commentating on him at the time , and it was someone who was in the box with me .
Flip109
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9/23/2014 3:34pm
The number one reason I don't ride a 2 stroke 250 currently is the vibration issue. It's like instant arm pump. I don't get to ride enough to keep my arms in shape to battle it. Always wondered about rubber mounts.
BobPA
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9/23/2014 3:43pm
I don't buy the loss in torque for one second. It would change the flex characteristics of the frame for sure, enough for us normals to feel? Who knows.
JBernard_401
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9/23/2014 3:53pm
my guess is that if the engine wasnt hardmounted to the frame at multiple places it would create a shearing action on impact = catastrophic frame failure
Mtek
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9/23/2014 3:56pm
Using carbon fiber engine hangers/mounts could help, Desalle uses them. They wouldn't cut down as much as rubber mounted, but if anyone has ever ridden a carbon bike vs an aluminum one, the diff is noticeable with harshness.
Markee
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9/24/2014 5:35am
The chassis stiffness seems like a logical reason, to gain the right chassis stiffness with the motors vibration isolated would lead to a heavier frame I assume.
IWreckALot
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9/24/2014 6:03am
I'm bad at understanding how metals work so this might be a stupid question.

Could you weld metal engine mounts to an aluminum frame? And would that make any difference?
Markee
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9/24/2014 6:22am
IWreckALot wrote:
I'm bad at understanding how metals work so this might be a stupid question. Could you weld metal engine mounts to an aluminum frame? And would...
I'm bad at understanding how metals work so this might be a stupid question.

Could you weld metal engine mounts to an aluminum frame? And would that make any difference?
Metal is a term to describe materials that are hard, malleable, electrical and thermal conductivity, in short.

But i'm assuming by metal you are referring to steel? If so you can not weld aluminum to steel. Just for fun, if you welded say a aluminum case to a aluminum chassis, the weld it self becomes hard/brittle by the welding process, so a heat treat process to "normalize" the entire frame and case would be in order, in other words not worth it, plus getting around the motor assembly problem after Wink
9/24/2014 6:25am
IWreckALot wrote:
I'm bad at understanding how metals work so this might be a stupid question. Could you weld metal engine mounts to an aluminum frame? And would...
I'm bad at understanding how metals work so this might be a stupid question.

Could you weld metal engine mounts to an aluminum frame? And would that make any difference?
Aluminum is a metal. If you mean steel engine mounts, then no, you can't weld steel to aluminum.

You wouldn't lose any torque, but would definitely lose chassis stiffness.
Moto75
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9/24/2014 9:55am
I believe primarily due to handling traits... I remember talking to one of the Honda guys years back. He was telling me they were experimenting with different headstays & eventually Windham tried one that was night and day better than what they had. It became the production mount the following year. Most people would probably never notice the difference, but the top level guys feel every little change. Chassis stiffness / handling are put above reducing some vibration.
9/24/2014 3:21pm
macz400 wrote:
I could definitely use some vibration help with my 12 250sx. That thing is bad!
Damn right! After 15 mins my hands are numb from the vibration on mine.

Cheers
Simon
philG
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9/24/2014 3:27pm
macz400 wrote:
I could definitely use some vibration help with my 12 250sx. That thing is bad!
Damn right! After 15 mins my hands are numb from the vibration on mine.

Cheers
Simon
Make sure everything is PROPER tight... we had some motor work done on our 300 TM , thing was unrideable after 3 laps , went through it all , nothing was loose , but a few went up a bit... instant cure. plus filling the bars with sikaflex can help.
41NDT
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9/24/2014 3:34pm
Listen to you 2ST pussies oh my hands hurt blah blah blah I thought just by reading the 2ST posts on here u were all hard as fuck. That's what happens when you ride dinosaurs.
Good question though I've wondered that as well.
I like dinosaurs
malachi177
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9/24/2014 4:21pm
Aluminum is a metal. If you mean steel engine mounts, then no, you can't weld steel to aluminum. You wouldn't lose any torque, but would definitely...
Aluminum is a metal. If you mean steel engine mounts, then no, you can't weld steel to aluminum.

You wouldn't lose any torque, but would definitely lose chassis stiffness.
No it's not. Aluminum is an alloy.
Markee
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9/24/2014 5:38pm
41NDT wrote:
Listen to you 2ST pussies oh my hands hurt blah blah blah I thought just by reading the 2ST posts on here u were all hard...
Listen to you 2ST pussies oh my hands hurt blah blah blah I thought just by reading the 2ST posts on here u were all hard as fuck. That's what happens when you ride dinosaurs.
Good question though I've wondered that as well.
I like dinosaurs
I ride a 300 2 stroke, it vibrates but I don't think of it when I ride at all, but I do believe my hands tell a different story after 3-4 20min motos on a ride day, no rubber mounted anything, straight fire son
Suns_PSD
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9/24/2014 6:45pm
Balance the crank on your 2 stroke and it'll vibrate less than a 4 stroke. It sure helped my ktm.
Katoomey
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9/24/2014 6:45pm Edited Date/Time 9/24/2014 6:53pm
I thought all you regulars were "core". There's a ton of noobsauce on this burrito.

first of all, stiffness and power losses ARE absolutely the reason you don't rubber mount ANYTHING! There is not a racecar or a racebike on the planet with rubber between the powertrain and you. Formula 1 cars have the motor bolted right to the main chassis bulkhead (the drivers back rests right against that, with nothing but a thin carbon seat between them) and racecars made from passenger cars have every single rubber mounting point replaced with solid mounts.

Now, for the vibration issue. Just be thankful your not riding air-cooled open classers...they'll rattle your teeth out. Fortunately, there are many things that can be done to reduce the vibes. Most of them individually will not make huge improvements, but all of them in conjunction will. I hate vibration, I mean I really hate it, so over the years I've always been on the lookout for ways to improve vibration. . But just remember, you need a counterbalancer or multiple cylinders to rid all vibration. Things that only exist on quads, so...one more reason quads are for pussies. Laughing

Here is a list of things that will reduce vibrations

1. dynamic balance of the reciprocating assembly (crank, rod, piston) - unfortunately there are only a handful of places that can do this for single cylinder engines, one of them is The Crank Shop. This will eliminate more vibration than anything else. most knuckleheads think that truing your crank is balancing it. it is not. ..and static (mathematical) balancing is ok, but why mess with it? it doesn't cost anymore to have it dynamically balanced.

2. true your crankshaft. -assuming your crank has measurable run-out. Then weld the crank pin in place, which will require a fairly competent crankshaft guy, depending on how much clearance you have in the primary compression chamber, i.e. crankcase. This should be done even if your crank has been dynamically balanced or even if it is "true"

3. anti-vibration handlebar inserts. these work. plain and simple

4. rubber mounted handlebar mounts/clamps - obviously, this is why they exist.

5. as stated above- properly shim your engine AND your swingarm.

6. Fatbar type handlebars, Flexx bars, or any other bars with engineered flex.

7. cushy-style grips like ProTaper's pillow top.

8. loosen your white-knuckle-death-grip on the bars...there's no need.

9. race fuel...i'm not going to go into the why, but all you have to know is that it has nothing to do with detonation, which obviously makes things vibrate.

10. adding cushy insoles to your riding boots. no brainer there, although not all bikes and all people will feel vibes through their footpegs.

BobPA
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9/24/2014 8:11pm Edited Date/Time 9/24/2014 8:12pm
Katoomey wrote:
I thought all you regulars were "core". There's a ton of noobsauce on this burrito. first of all, stiffness and power losses ARE absolutely the reason...
I thought all you regulars were "core". There's a ton of noobsauce on this burrito.

first of all, stiffness and power losses ARE absolutely the reason you don't rubber mount ANYTHING! There is not a racecar or a racebike on the planet with rubber between the powertrain and you. Formula 1 cars have the motor bolted right to the main chassis bulkhead (the drivers back rests right against that, with nothing but a thin carbon seat between them) and racecars made from passenger cars have every single rubber mounting point replaced with solid mounts.

Now, for the vibration issue. Just be thankful your not riding air-cooled open classers...they'll rattle your teeth out. Fortunately, there are many things that can be done to reduce the vibes. Most of them individually will not make huge improvements, but all of them in conjunction will. I hate vibration, I mean I really hate it, so over the years I've always been on the lookout for ways to improve vibration. . But just remember, you need a counterbalancer or multiple cylinders to rid all vibration. Things that only exist on quads, so...one more reason quads are for pussies. Laughing

Here is a list of things that will reduce vibrations

1. dynamic balance of the reciprocating assembly (crank, rod, piston) - unfortunately there are only a handful of places that can do this for single cylinder engines, one of them is The Crank Shop. This will eliminate more vibration than anything else. most knuckleheads think that truing your crank is balancing it. it is not. ..and static (mathematical) balancing is ok, but why mess with it? it doesn't cost anymore to have it dynamically balanced.

2. true your crankshaft. -assuming your crank has measurable run-out. Then weld the crank pin in place, which will require a fairly competent crankshaft guy, depending on how much clearance you have in the primary compression chamber, i.e. crankcase. This should be done even if your crank has been dynamically balanced or even if it is "true"

3. anti-vibration handlebar inserts. these work. plain and simple

4. rubber mounted handlebar mounts/clamps - obviously, this is why they exist.

5. as stated above- properly shim your engine AND your swingarm.

6. Fatbar type handlebars, Flexx bars, or any other bars with engineered flex.

7. cushy-style grips like ProTaper's pillow top.

8. loosen your white-knuckle-death-grip on the bars...there's no need.

9. race fuel...i'm not going to go into the why, but all you have to know is that it has nothing to do with detonation, which obviously makes things vibrate.

10. adding cushy insoles to your riding boots. no brainer there, although not all bikes and all people will feel vibes through their footpegs.

Actually some race cars (small open wheel, many scca classes, etc.) are required to run some sort of rubber engine mount. A solid mounted engine would not allow a vehicle to crumple as easy during a crash...thus it is done for safety reasons.
Cancerman
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9/24/2014 11:25pm
I changed the top clamp on my RM125 to install rubber clamps, not that it really needed it, and now it feels like an electric motor, it's so smooth. I also did this to my 87 CR500 when I put 46mm USD KYB's on it. Man did it need it, my hands were numb after 20-30 min. Rubber mounting a mx bike's engine would also create chain/drive issues, and most modern frames are designed to flex a certain amount around a solid mounted motor.....

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