What sets Team USA apart? Luck? Not even close.

Robgvx
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9/21/2011 3:06pm
You said "refusal to even acknowledge that many of the events in recent years have ultimately been decided " These are called excuses because you still...
You said "refusal to even acknowledge that many of the events in recent years have ultimately been decided "

These are called excuses because you still not have accepted the Americans are faster and better riders. Lets list them.


The Euros did not win because...

1. "comparably limited resources "
2. "countless injury woes "
3. "face a massive task " (too hard)
4. "unbelievably bad luck"
5. "freak incident invariably happens"
6."two of those were out injured before the event even started"
7. "crashed in the sludge in first corner"
8. "guys mousse popped off the rim"
9. ACs handbars broke

Lets see the top reasons why the Americans won.

1. Blake Bagget crashed into AC in the first corner.
2. Blake crashed several other times.
3. The Americans never rode on this track before.
4. The American had jet lag and were tired
5. The bikes are different from the American bikes.
6. RV got a bad holeshot in his first moto
7. Blake got another bad holeshot.

The undeniable truth... You make your own luck.
The use of the phrase 'bad holeshot' tells me everything I need to know about your knowledge of the sport.
kongols
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9/21/2011 3:07pm
Robgvx wrote:
The use of the phrase 'bad holeshot' tells me everything I need to know about your knowledge of the sport.
LaughingLaughingLaughing
Nerd
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9/21/2011 3:15pm
ayearinmx wrote:
this is how you win an event, despite losing: # STEFAN EVERTS: "... This is an incredible day and it has been an amazing year...
this is how you win an event, despite losing:

# STEFAN EVERTS: "... This is an incredible day and it has been an amazing year .. To win the Motocross des Nations, in Belgium and in front of the king is a dream come true. I didn’t have any problems with my riding in the final. I made the holeshot and rode at my own pace. I’m so happy, but maybe a little bit of me is disappointed that I didn’t win the race. It has been great to have the Americans here today. They bring prestige to the event and that is important for European motocross. Ricky (Carmichael) was faster than me today – hopefully he will return for a rematch next year

so no, he wasn't riding for the team.... and he's big enough to admit it, wish he'd get more credit for that quote than his performance in 2006, but apparently Stewart would've beaten him anyway so it's a moot point

"I took exception, not as an American, but as a motocross fan."... are you arguing as an American now, or as a motocross fan?
I love Stefan Everts.

Did I say that enough in this thread? Because it's true. The guy is just all class. Just a great dude.

But I don't think anyone here said "Stewart would've beaten him anyway". I know I didn't. I said that Stewart would've tried harder to beat him, but may have crashed trying to do it. Or he may have beaten Everts.

What's for sure, though, is that Stewart that day was NOT the Stewart that had raced all year in America. Period.
Titan1
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9/21/2011 3:16pm
Nerd wrote:
I could show you guys the email I sent (but I won't) immediately after the MX1 qualifier on Saturday when I said, "Cairoli looked really good...
I could show you guys the email I sent (but I won't) immediately after the MX1 qualifier on Saturday when I said, "Cairoli looked really good. But he always looks good on Qualifying day. On Sunday, usually, not so much..."

It's like I'm psychic.

How about this:

Despite the fact that there are way more GP racers in the MXoN than AMA racers, this is how the classes broke down in the three motos:

MX1, three of the top five were AMA racers overall.

MX2, three of the top five were AMA racers overall (and that's counting Roczen as a GP guy, even though he raced in the AMA in 2011 and will be racing in the AMA full-time in 2012, so really you could say four of the five...).

MX3, there were only 3 AMA racers in the class, but they all finished in the top 8.

Of the racers on the three teams on the podium, EIGHT out of the nine of them have raced in the AMA, while only four have raced in the GPs. Currently, of the nine, six of the nine race in the AMA, and SEVEN out of the nine raced in the AMA in 2011.

Scoreboard.

And this is on tracks they're not used to. AMA tracks are a lot different, and it's not because they're faster or smoother. They're disked deeper, for one thing, and there is much more top-soil before you get to the hardpack stuff underneath. On top of that, it rained in all three motos, some worse than others, and it's no secret that GP racers are notoriously better at mud riding than AMA racers, because they do it more.

Can we stop arguing now?

Or should we look at the scores when the GP guys have come to US tracks in recent years and compare/contrast?

MX1/MX2 moto in 2007 at Budds Creek: Top three, all AMA guys.

MX2/MX3 moto same event: Two of the five (including the winner) were AMA guys.

MX1/MX3 moto same event: Top three, all AMA guys.

Team USA won all three classes overall.

Seems pretty consistent.

Also consistent at that event, Cairoli did terribly, which is almost a given nowadays. He's very fast, but something almost always happens on Sunday.
That is what I pointed out a couple days ago.

http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/AMA-vs-GPs,1224753

The Shop

neverwas
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9/21/2011 3:18pm
Robgvx wrote:
The use of the phrase 'bad holeshot' tells me everything I need to know about your knowledge of the sport.
kongols wrote:
LaughingLaughingLaughing
+1
Never heard of a bad holeshot,but I have heard of a bad start.
pilotdude
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9/21/2011 3:41pm
kongols wrote:
I was just stopping by to see if everybody`s OK. DryBlush
Laughing
jgmxdad251
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9/21/2011 4:20pm
JB 19 wrote:
Villopoto won moto 3 by 16 seconds.......after falling down......and second place was Dungey. Where was third? And to think Pourcel could go the speed of Villo...
Villopoto won moto 3 by 16 seconds.......after falling down......and second place was Dungey. Where was third?

And to think Pourcel could go the speed of Villo or Dungey for more than 4 or 5 laps is laughable............ Laughing
Exactly!

The first two motos were slick and snotty, no way our guys were going to take chances in those motos they just needed to finish with a good result. The third moto RV&RD knew what they had to do and they did it. Great job team USA.

IMHO. Rv is the fastest MXer in the world. RD is a super close second (faster than he was last year) with carolli third.
FreshTopEnd
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9/21/2011 4:32pm
ayearinmx wrote:
this is how you win an event, despite losing: # STEFAN EVERTS: "... This is an incredible day and it has been an amazing year...
this is how you win an event, despite losing:

# STEFAN EVERTS: "... This is an incredible day and it has been an amazing year .. To win the Motocross des Nations, in Belgium and in front of the king is a dream come true. I didn’t have any problems with my riding in the final. I made the holeshot and rode at my own pace. I’m so happy, but maybe a little bit of me is disappointed that I didn’t win the race. It has been great to have the Americans here today. They bring prestige to the event and that is important for European motocross. Ricky (Carmichael) was faster than me today – hopefully he will return for a rematch next year

so no, he wasn't riding for the team.... and he's big enough to admit it, wish he'd get more credit for that quote than his performance in 2006, but apparently Stewart would've beaten him anyway so it's a moot point

"I took exception, not as an American, but as a motocross fan."... are you arguing as an American now, or as a motocross fan?
So, your problem with Stewart isn't that "he rode his pace" in 2006 - as Everts did in 03 - it's that Stewart didn't concede Everts was faster than him before Everts starting talking trash at the press conference, is that it?

What would people have said about RC if in 2003 he had said "it's a pity Stefan didn't race for the individual win?"
jamma10
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9/21/2011 4:42pm
Nerd wrote:
I could show you guys the email I sent (but I won't) immediately after the MX1 qualifier on Saturday when I said, "Cairoli looked really good...
I could show you guys the email I sent (but I won't) immediately after the MX1 qualifier on Saturday when I said, "Cairoli looked really good. But he always looks good on Qualifying day. On Sunday, usually, not so much..."

It's like I'm psychic.

How about this:

Despite the fact that there are way more GP racers in the MXoN than AMA racers, this is how the classes broke down in the three motos:

MX1, three of the top five were AMA racers overall.

MX2, three of the top five were AMA racers overall (and that's counting Roczen as a GP guy, even though he raced in the AMA in 2011 and will be racing in the AMA full-time in 2012, so really you could say four of the five...).

MX3, there were only 3 AMA racers in the class, but they all finished in the top 8.

Of the racers on the three teams on the podium, EIGHT out of the nine of them have raced in the AMA, while only four have raced in the GPs. Currently, of the nine, six of the nine race in the AMA, and SEVEN out of the nine raced in the AMA in 2011.

Scoreboard.

And this is on tracks they're not used to. AMA tracks are a lot different, and it's not because they're faster or smoother. They're disked deeper, for one thing, and there is much more top-soil before you get to the hardpack stuff underneath. On top of that, it rained in all three motos, some worse than others, and it's no secret that GP racers are notoriously better at mud riding than AMA racers, because they do it more.

Can we stop arguing now?

Or should we look at the scores when the GP guys have come to US tracks in recent years and compare/contrast?

MX1/MX2 moto in 2007 at Budds Creek: Top three, all AMA guys.

MX2/MX3 moto same event: Two of the five (including the winner) were AMA guys.

MX1/MX3 moto same event: Top three, all AMA guys.

Team USA won all three classes overall.

Seems pretty consistent.

Also consistent at that event, Cairoli did terribly, which is almost a given nowadays. He's very fast, but something almost always happens on Sunday.
You need to do a bit more background research.
Nerd
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9/21/2011 4:51pm
Nerd wrote:
I could show you guys the email I sent (but I won't) immediately after the MX1 qualifier on Saturday when I said, "Cairoli looked really good...
I could show you guys the email I sent (but I won't) immediately after the MX1 qualifier on Saturday when I said, "Cairoli looked really good. But he always looks good on Qualifying day. On Sunday, usually, not so much..."

It's like I'm psychic.

How about this:

Despite the fact that there are way more GP racers in the MXoN than AMA racers, this is how the classes broke down in the three motos:

MX1, three of the top five were AMA racers overall.

MX2, three of the top five were AMA racers overall (and that's counting Roczen as a GP guy, even though he raced in the AMA in 2011 and will be racing in the AMA full-time in 2012, so really you could say four of the five...).

MX3, there were only 3 AMA racers in the class, but they all finished in the top 8.

Of the racers on the three teams on the podium, EIGHT out of the nine of them have raced in the AMA, while only four have raced in the GPs. Currently, of the nine, six of the nine race in the AMA, and SEVEN out of the nine raced in the AMA in 2011.

Scoreboard.

And this is on tracks they're not used to. AMA tracks are a lot different, and it's not because they're faster or smoother. They're disked deeper, for one thing, and there is much more top-soil before you get to the hardpack stuff underneath. On top of that, it rained in all three motos, some worse than others, and it's no secret that GP racers are notoriously better at mud riding than AMA racers, because they do it more.

Can we stop arguing now?

Or should we look at the scores when the GP guys have come to US tracks in recent years and compare/contrast?

MX1/MX2 moto in 2007 at Budds Creek: Top three, all AMA guys.

MX2/MX3 moto same event: Two of the five (including the winner) were AMA guys.

MX1/MX3 moto same event: Top three, all AMA guys.

Team USA won all three classes overall.

Seems pretty consistent.

Also consistent at that event, Cairoli did terribly, which is almost a given nowadays. He's very fast, but something almost always happens on Sunday.
jamma10 wrote:
You need to do a bit more background research.
On what? Fill me in.
jamma10
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9/21/2011 5:38pm
Nerd wrote:
I could show you guys the email I sent (but I won't) immediately after the MX1 qualifier on Saturday when I said, "Cairoli looked really good...
I could show you guys the email I sent (but I won't) immediately after the MX1 qualifier on Saturday when I said, "Cairoli looked really good. But he always looks good on Qualifying day. On Sunday, usually, not so much..."

It's like I'm psychic.

How about this:

Despite the fact that there are way more GP racers in the MXoN than AMA racers, this is how the classes broke down in the three motos:

MX1, three of the top five were AMA racers overall.

MX2, three of the top five were AMA racers overall (and that's counting Roczen as a GP guy, even though he raced in the AMA in 2011 and will be racing in the AMA full-time in 2012, so really you could say four of the five...).

MX3, there were only 3 AMA racers in the class, but they all finished in the top 8.

Of the racers on the three teams on the podium, EIGHT out of the nine of them have raced in the AMA, while only four have raced in the GPs. Currently, of the nine, six of the nine race in the AMA, and SEVEN out of the nine raced in the AMA in 2011.

Scoreboard.

And this is on tracks they're not used to. AMA tracks are a lot different, and it's not because they're faster or smoother. They're disked deeper, for one thing, and there is much more top-soil before you get to the hardpack stuff underneath. On top of that, it rained in all three motos, some worse than others, and it's no secret that GP racers are notoriously better at mud riding than AMA racers, because they do it more.

Can we stop arguing now?

Or should we look at the scores when the GP guys have come to US tracks in recent years and compare/contrast?

MX1/MX2 moto in 2007 at Budds Creek: Top three, all AMA guys.

MX2/MX3 moto same event: Two of the five (including the winner) were AMA guys.

MX1/MX3 moto same event: Top three, all AMA guys.

Team USA won all three classes overall.

Seems pretty consistent.

Also consistent at that event, Cairoli did terribly, which is almost a given nowadays. He's very fast, but something almost always happens on Sunday.
jamma10 wrote:
You need to do a bit more background research.
Nerd wrote:
On what? Fill me in.
Well you could start by considering that four of the top five AMA 450 riders were in attendance, whereas only two of top five MX1 GP riders were racing (in total only 4 of the top 10). You should probably also take into account the fact that four of the top five MX2 GP riders were riding either MX1 or MX2.

Though Im not really sure why you wanted to try and make AMA vs GP comparisons anyway, consider that many of the AMA riders in question came from the GP's.
9/21/2011 5:54pm
Mate, no one with half a brain denies that Ken is an incredible talent. In my mind he's a favorite in the US Pro series next...
Mate, no one with half a brain denies that Ken is an incredible talent. In my mind he's a favorite in the US Pro series next year, along with a Scot and two-three Yanks.

That said, when a team is in contention the riders go at it differently until it's make or break or the event is in the bag. The event is about that, not a test of performance by guys with no holds barred because they lack talented co-riders to make their team competitive. No one with half a brain denies that.

This was a hard fought year for the US team, especially with Bagget's results (which both hindered the team and made the difference because of how he came back). The French had enough go wrong to outweigh what went right. As Xavier explains, that was in large part due to non-rider human mistakes. That's not luck, that's a bummer.

As far as luck, Cairolli may be the unluckiest guy ever over the last few years.
Actually in that 2nd Moto the USA needed as much as they could get as Baggett had 2 races that probably would have had to be thrown away,Dungey would of known that,he had the fastest time, he was definitely going for it

As for qualifiers,AC won his ok last year beating Dungey on home soil,and as for coming through the pack etc,he did that too,a 7th place start to catching up to Dungey and trying to pass the guy,he was slamming that triple and eased it off

All this talk of going flat out as they have nothing to lose is Crap,they can't win as a team either so sometimes there's not much to gain by going balls out

Again its always guys like Roczen,then Herlings no doubt going over to America to do their series,but if Baggett is the fastest American,how would he do if he did the exact same thing in parallel and raced a whole GP season with tracks like that,indifferent weather and conditions and in 12 diferrent countries,not all his own?
Yeah,yeah it probably won't happen but its a very fair way to test an American,just like the Euros are always tested

At the end of the day the Americans were great,but didn't over impress me,afterall they were 1 hiccup away from going down in the last moto

,
9/21/2011 5:58pm
jamma10 wrote:
You need to do a bit more background research.
I agree,trying to claim guys like Roczen are AMA,Musquin raced about 4 times last year,to me he's still a Euro until another year or 2,that's how they'll look at Roczen in next years nationals too,
morning_stiffy
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9/21/2011 6:21pm
What people need to understand, is that it's not America's fault Desalle and Frossard crashed themselves out... Cairoli made his own luck, he crashed at the start, and stalled one of our riders in the process. Cairoli then got back up and couldn't keep it on 2 wheels (again, his problem)

Here's an explanation:
Cairoli - Got beat by Ryan Dungey in the qualifiers, they both got good starts, and Dungey won, on a track he has never raced on. At the same time, Cairoli has raced multiple times on this track. In the first moto, crashed on the start, his own fault, and took Bagget with him. Cairoli then got up, rode over his head, and crashed himself out of contention, and breaking his hand in the process. In the third race, he tried to come back out, but had nothing for the Americans, who would eventually go on and take it with a 1-2 finish. (Just like last year, when Desalle, Frossard, etc were all there)

Desalle - Crashed himself out of contention, but as Jamma likes to make comparisons, talking about how Desalle beat Stewart last year. REMEMBER, Desalle got beat by Dungey last year, by a large margin. Desalle beat Stewart yes, but it was Stewart's first race back that year. Not taking anything away from Desalle, but he still didn't beat Dungey. At the Motocross of nations 2010, Desalle got beat by Dungey and Short both in the final moto (Short isn't nearly as fast as Villopoto, therefore if Desalle would have raced this year, he most likely would have gotten beat by Villopoto, if you want to keep making comparisons Jamma, I can go all day.) Short was also ahead of Desalle in the 2nd moto last year before being taken out by Townley.

Frossard - Same as Desalle, crashed himself out of contention before the event even started!

Pourcel - Got beat by Dungey in the qualifiers, in moto 1 he pulled off the track for more goggles, giving up valuable points. He could have, and should have sucked it up and raced without goggles... Reed and Dungey both did, and so did Roczen in the 2nd moto, when a rock hit his roll off canister and forced him to race without goggles. Reed, Dungey, and Roczen did it without goggles, so therefore, Pourcel could have done the same. In the 3rd moto of the day, Pourcel's tire had problems, again this is not America's fault, like Jamma is trying to make it seem. It is Pourcel's mechanics... Jamma said himself "how often does that happen?" My answer? NEVER. Lots of GP riders ride with the same style tire and had no problems. So it must mean his mechanic didn't do something right.

America won. For the 7th year straight. Quit with the "ifs ands and buts", we won, we have the most wins, and we also started attending the motocross of nations much later than any other country. Yet we still have the most wins, that should tell you something.

Try harder next year Europe, because out of the other 12 countries that line up against the US, not one of you can beat us. It's America vs the World every year, and we continue to come out on top, again and again and again.

GO AMERICA!
morning_stiffy
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9/21/2011 6:26pm
jamma10 wrote:
You need to do a bit more background research.
Nerd wrote:
On what? Fill me in.
jamma10 wrote:
Well you could start by considering that four of the top five AMA 450 riders were in attendance, whereas only two of top five MX1 GP...
Well you could start by considering that four of the top five AMA 450 riders were in attendance, whereas only two of top five MX1 GP riders were racing (in total only 4 of the top 10). You should probably also take into account the fact that four of the top five MX2 GP riders were riding either MX1 or MX2.

Though Im not really sure why you wanted to try and make AMA vs GP comparisons anyway, consider that many of the AMA riders in question came from the GP's.
"many of the AMA riders in question came from the GP's."

Those are the key words, they come over here for a reason. Again, as in my previous post, it's not America's nor the AMAs fault that 2 of your GP riders crashed themselves out.

America did just fine last year when Villopoto was out, and Stewart wasn't racing, that's 2 of our fastest guys, and we still managed to win.

Canard and Stewart weren't at the event this year (since we can only field a 3 man team) So that makes it even, we didn't have 2 of our riders, you didn't have 2 of yours. Yours weren't there because they crashed themselves out.

Again, AMERICA WON GET OVER IT. Damn you just ramble on every year, and say "wait til' next year" And next year, same thing happens. just SHUT UP ALREADY, we get that you hate that the Americans win every year.
morning_stiffy
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9/21/2011 6:30pm Edited Date/Time 9/21/2011 6:31pm
ocscottie wrote:
[i]"On Saturday, with no rain and straight 450 vs 450 and 250 vs 250, the U.S. went 1-1-1."[/i] Pilotdude, just a reminder, those quali races dont...
"On Saturday, with no rain and straight 450 vs 450 and 250 vs 250, the U.S. went 1-1-1."

Pilotdude, just a reminder, those quali races dont count...well unless the US doesnt win them, then that is all we would be hearing about Cool
pilotdude wrote:
True. An excellent and well made point.
jamma10 wrote:
And funnily enough thats exactly what we heard in 2009 when GP riders swept the qualifying races and Cairoli beat Dungey last year in the Qualifiers...
And funnily enough thats exactly what we heard in 2009 when GP riders swept the qualifying races and Cairoli beat Dungey last year in the Qualifiers.

This place is so hypocritical.
The problem is, when we sweep the qualifiers, or Dungey beats Cairoli in the qualifiers, we actually back it up by winning the next day...

Also, there is a big difference between America sweeping the podium (which only has 3 riders) vs GP riders sweeping the podium (which is MUCH more than 3 riders, last time I checked, GP was not a country)

Comparing "GP riders" (which is probably close to 20 riders) to American riders (which is 3) is completely stupid.
The 3 GP riders in 2009 to sweep the podium were not all from the same country. America's riders that swept it this year, were all from the same country. So there goes your stupid little arguement.
Nerd
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9/21/2011 7:20pm
Here's the funny part:

Remember when, in 2009, we sent TWO Lites guys, because the 450 guys were all hurt or didn't want to go?

Team USA sent this 250F racer Ryan Dungey and put him on a 450 for the first time, because we had no other choice. Then sent the second-best American 250F racer, Jake Weimer, to race MX2. And Team USA sent Ivan Tedesco mainly because he was an MXdN veteran and the other two were rookies.

USA had a lot of injuries.

AND THEY WON.
carlosmacho
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9/21/2011 9:22pm
You said "refusal to even acknowledge that many of the events in recent years have ultimately been decided " These are called excuses because you still...
You said "refusal to even acknowledge that many of the events in recent years have ultimately been decided "

These are called excuses because you still not have accepted the Americans are faster and better riders. Lets list them.


The Euros did not win because...

1. "comparably limited resources "
2. "countless injury woes "
3. "face a massive task " (too hard)
4. "unbelievably bad luck"
5. "freak incident invariably happens"
6."two of those were out injured before the event even started"
7. "crashed in the sludge in first corner"
8. "guys mousse popped off the rim"
9. ACs handbars broke

Lets see the top reasons why the Americans won.

1. Blake Bagget crashed into AC in the first corner.
2. Blake crashed several other times.
3. The Americans never rode on this track before.
4. The American had jet lag and were tired
5. The bikes are different from the American bikes.
6. RV got a bad holeshot in his first moto
7. Blake got another bad holeshot.

The undeniable truth... You make your own luck.
Robgvx wrote:
The use of the phrase 'bad holeshot' tells me everything I need to know about your knowledge of the sport.
Do I even need to know english or how to type to know the Americans won yet again and also were fastest in qualifying. Isn't that what we are talking about here?

I do not have to be a rocket scientist to know the Americans won, and because they win year after year, they dominate. Come back and talk to me when the Euros win.
carlosmacho
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9/21/2011 9:32pm Edited Date/Time 9/21/2011 9:34pm
Robgvx wrote:
The use of the phrase 'bad holeshot' tells me everything I need to know about your knowledge of the sport.
kongols wrote:
LaughingLaughingLaughing
neverwas wrote:
+1
Never heard of a bad holeshot,but I have heard of a bad start.
Well you heard a bunch of stuff but the real definition of holeshot from my understanding came from drag racing and motocrossers took the term and it is jump of the start. Read the definition.

Holeshot

"Once a driver commits a red-light foul (also known as ‘redlighting’), the other driver can also commit a foul start by leaving the line too early but still win, having left later. Should both drivers leave after the green light illuminates, the one leaving first is said to have a "holeshot advantage".

Holeshot win

The winner is the first vehicle to cross the finish line (and therefore the driver with the lowest total reaction time + elapsed time). The elapsed time is a measure of performance only; it does not necessarily determine the winner. Because elapsed time does not include reaction time and each lane is timed individually, a car with a slower elapsed time can actually win if that driver's holeshot advantage exceeds the elapsed time difference. This is known as a "holeshot win".

It is not some line or to the first turn as AMA SX would have us to believe, it is the jump of the gate.
But the Euros don't need to know this, what they need to know that Americans won. They dominate the MXON, they dominate the sport in general and they are the fastests riders. And if you are figuring the AMA, then we have the fastest riders world wide.
9/22/2011 2:36am
Robgvx wrote:
The use of the phrase 'bad holeshot' tells me everything I need to know about your knowledge of the sport.
Yes in MX the holeshot line is at or after the 1st turn,maybe these red lights are in the start girls hootersGrinning

This is from a guy who says he went to the USGP and didn't know who anyone was riding,the USA won as we saw and if anyone didn't they can take a look on here and be told again,again and again,but everyone predicted that anyhow,except many predicted them to go 1-2 every race on Sunday,many said they just couldn't see anyone getting anywhere near them at all,winning by a mile as they do in the AMA,but as we saw,they didn't,their 2 fastest guys that absolutely destroy the competition back home got beat by some up and coming kids,and from what I saw they all started on the same start line.Maybe some are frustrated a little knowing that a whole bunch of fast guys who were eligeble for the race were not there and some others that were had problems and had DNFs for whatever reasons.

Yes a lot of the good AMA guys do come from GP racing,in fact they are only in the AMA by virtue of racing in Europe,how many would have gone straight to the Nationals from their home series,not many Aussies,French,or South Africans etc

One underestimate for me was RV when he made a bad start in the 2nd Moto,he went from 15th to 2nd which was pretty good except,with all due respect,he raced the 250s and MX3 boys (who a lot were on 450s for the first time too),there were no MX1 boys there at all,Roczen still finished only 2 seconds behind him too,as for 8 seconds a lap faster? even in that race I didn't see a domination,far from it

How many times have we seen guys like Desalle and AC come from bad starts in the GP feild,except the feild is way more stacked with fast guys look at the laptimes,the too 10 can be within a few seconds of each other,and that's why it throws up more winners,its harder to push through,like RV found out and that feild definitely wasn't stacked at all,though,but take nothing away from him it was a great ride all the same,even Bobby gave the Ryans more trouble than they get back home when they battled

There was definitely a realization that the GP boys are way faster than some people though,a wake up call,those guys who put 8 seconds a lap at home and win by over a minute wouldn't be doing that in a GP series,as awesome as they are

Before the race,if Euros would have said the Dungey would have been beaten by Roczen on a 250 and RV beaten by Smile Paulin and Herlings on a 350,they'd have been flamed to high heaven and told it would never happen in a million yearsLaughing
jamma10
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9/22/2011 2:59am
Nerd wrote:
Here's the funny part: Remember when, in 2009, we sent TWO Lites guys, because the 450 guys were all hurt or didn't want to go? Team...
Here's the funny part:

Remember when, in 2009, we sent TWO Lites guys, because the 450 guys were all hurt or didn't want to go?

Team USA sent this 250F racer Ryan Dungey and put him on a 450 for the first time, because we had no other choice. Then sent the second-best American 250F racer, Jake Weimer, to race MX2. And Team USA sent Ivan Tedesco mainly because he was an MXdN veteran and the other two were rookies.

USA had a lot of injuries.

AND THEY WON.
You're trying to make an entirely different point now. Initially you were trying to make a point about the breakdown of AMA and GP riders in each individual classes at the weekend, I gave you the reason why those results are a somewhat misleading barometer of the quality of each series, if indeed that was indeed your intention...

But moving on to you're new statement....

Paulin - also a Lites rider - also won his first race riding a 450 at the 2009 MXdN... and was then taken out on the 2nd or third corner of the last race.

I referred earlier to the incidents in that race that almost certainly helped to pave the way for TeamUSA's successes. Weimer, Tedesco & Dungey were lucky enough not to have been in the firing line of any kamikaze riders on the track in 2009, that was the difference. If Tedesco or Dungey been taken out in the same way Paulin or Cairoli were would they have still won with a 25th place and a DNF? I don't think so. Likewise this weekend and a reversal of fortunes regarding a tire malfunction.

Its a lot of 'ifs and buts' I know, but when your team wins its easy to ignore or forget the contributing factors as inconsequential, which they're simply not, they have a huge impact. Americans don't debate these things the way they debate the 2011 450 championship for example, because their guys won. Its surplus to what they need to concern themselves with, which is simply that their team won.

If you were impartial you might be able to recognise this.
jamma10
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9/22/2011 3:05am
pilotdude wrote:
True. An excellent and well made point.
jamma10 wrote:
And funnily enough thats exactly what we heard in 2009 when GP riders swept the qualifying races and Cairoli beat Dungey last year in the Qualifiers...
And funnily enough thats exactly what we heard in 2009 when GP riders swept the qualifying races and Cairoli beat Dungey last year in the Qualifiers.

This place is so hypocritical.
The problem is, when we sweep the qualifiers, or Dungey beats Cairoli in the qualifiers, we actually back it up by winning the next day... Also...
The problem is, when we sweep the qualifiers, or Dungey beats Cairoli in the qualifiers, we actually back it up by winning the next day...

Also, there is a big difference between America sweeping the podium (which only has 3 riders) vs GP riders sweeping the podium (which is MUCH more than 3 riders, last time I checked, GP was not a country)

Comparing "GP riders" (which is probably close to 20 riders) to American riders (which is 3) is completely stupid.
The 3 GP riders in 2009 to sweep the podium were not all from the same country. America's riders that swept it this year, were all from the same country. So there goes your stupid little arguement.
I cant be bothered to correct the holes in that post. You're both confusing and contradicting yourself.
9/22/2011 3:12am
Hey, jamma, don't let the Yanks get under yer skin. So, do ya follow a football team - and I'm referring to "real" football.
jamma10
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9/22/2011 3:14am
Nerd wrote:
On what? Fill me in.
jamma10 wrote:
Well you could start by considering that four of the top five AMA 450 riders were in attendance, whereas only two of top five MX1 GP...
Well you could start by considering that four of the top five AMA 450 riders were in attendance, whereas only two of top five MX1 GP riders were racing (in total only 4 of the top 10). You should probably also take into account the fact that four of the top five MX2 GP riders were riding either MX1 or MX2.

Though Im not really sure why you wanted to try and make AMA vs GP comparisons anyway, consider that many of the AMA riders in question came from the GP's.
[b]"many of the AMA riders in question came from the GP's."[/b] Those are the key words, they come over here for a reason. Again, as in...
"many of the AMA riders in question came from the GP's."

Those are the key words, they come over here for a reason. Again, as in my previous post, it's not America's nor the AMAs fault that 2 of your GP riders crashed themselves out.

America did just fine last year when Villopoto was out, and Stewart wasn't racing, that's 2 of our fastest guys, and we still managed to win.

Canard and Stewart weren't at the event this year (since we can only field a 3 man team) So that makes it even, we didn't have 2 of our riders, you didn't have 2 of yours. Yours weren't there because they crashed themselves out.

Again, AMERICA WON GET OVER IT. Damn you just ramble on every year, and say "wait til' next year" And next year, same thing happens. just SHUT UP ALREADY, we get that you hate that the Americans win every year.
Laughing

Where have I said "Wait till next year"?
Where have I said "I hate the Americans"?
Where have I suggested the AMA is an inferior series?

Im discussing some of the incidents that have contributed towards the results in recent years, and in a perfectly reasonable fashion too thanks!

It seems you're the one getting all irate and worked up. I love American riders, I love the AMA and I love watching TeamUSA. I made sure I went and applauded them on the podium on Sunday. I have nothing but absolute admiration for those guys.

(Canard crashed himself out of contention too, just like 'ours' did, if you remember...)
9/22/2011 3:19am Edited Date/Time 9/22/2011 3:20am
I repeat, hey, jamma, don't let the Yanks get under yer skin. So, do ya follow a football team - and I'm referring to "real" football, again.
jamma10
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9/22/2011 3:27am Edited Date/Time 9/22/2011 3:28am
What people need to understand, is that it's not America's fault Desalle and Frossard crashed themselves out... Cairoli made his own luck, he crashed at the...
What people need to understand, is that it's not America's fault Desalle and Frossard crashed themselves out... Cairoli made his own luck, he crashed at the start, and stalled one of our riders in the process. Cairoli then got back up and couldn't keep it on 2 wheels (again, his problem)

Here's an explanation:
Cairoli - Got beat by Ryan Dungey in the qualifiers, they both got good starts, and Dungey won, on a track he has never raced on. At the same time, Cairoli has raced multiple times on this track. In the first moto, crashed on the start, his own fault, and took Bagget with him. Cairoli then got up, rode over his head, and crashed himself out of contention, and breaking his hand in the process. In the third race, he tried to come back out, but had nothing for the Americans, who would eventually go on and take it with a 1-2 finish. (Just like last year, when Desalle, Frossard, etc were all there)

Desalle - Crashed himself out of contention, but as Jamma likes to make comparisons, talking about how Desalle beat Stewart last year. REMEMBER, Desalle got beat by Dungey last year, by a large margin. Desalle beat Stewart yes, but it was Stewart's first race back that year. Not taking anything away from Desalle, but he still didn't beat Dungey. At the Motocross of nations 2010, Desalle got beat by Dungey and Short both in the final moto (Short isn't nearly as fast as Villopoto, therefore if Desalle would have raced this year, he most likely would have gotten beat by Villopoto, if you want to keep making comparisons Jamma, I can go all day.) Short was also ahead of Desalle in the 2nd moto last year before being taken out by Townley.

Frossard - Same as Desalle, crashed himself out of contention before the event even started!

Pourcel - Got beat by Dungey in the qualifiers, in moto 1 he pulled off the track for more goggles, giving up valuable points. He could have, and should have sucked it up and raced without goggles... Reed and Dungey both did, and so did Roczen in the 2nd moto, when a rock hit his roll off canister and forced him to race without goggles. Reed, Dungey, and Roczen did it without goggles, so therefore, Pourcel could have done the same. In the 3rd moto of the day, Pourcel's tire had problems, again this is not America's fault, like Jamma is trying to make it seem. It is Pourcel's mechanics... Jamma said himself "how often does that happen?" My answer? NEVER. Lots of GP riders ride with the same style tire and had no problems. So it must mean his mechanic didn't do something right.

America won. For the 7th year straight. Quit with the "ifs ands and buts", we won, we have the most wins, and we also started attending the motocross of nations much later than any other country. Yet we still have the most wins, that should tell you something.

Try harder next year Europe, because out of the other 12 countries that line up against the US, not one of you can beat us. It's America vs the World every year, and we continue to come out on top, again and again and again.

GO AMERICA!
But as Jamma likes to make comparisons, talking about how Desalle beat Stewart last year.
I made one fleeting comment in response to a post regarding Stewart. It wasn't a grand statement and believe if Stewart was still riding outdoors and in top form I doubt anyone could beat him unless he crashed.

At the Motocross of nations 2010, Desalle got beat by Dungey and Short both in the final moto
Desalle had only just returned from injury a week prior to the event. He did quiet well considering.

Pourcel's tire had problems, again this is not America's fault, like Jamma is trying to make it seem. It is Pourcel's mechanics... Jamma said himself "how often does that happen?" My answer? NEVER. Lots of GP riders ride with the same style tire and had no problems. So it must mean his mechanic didn't do something right.
Pourcels tire was fitted by Pirrelli, as all their tires are, not his mechanic and if you read Xaviers post in this thread you'll realise both the possible reason for the malfunction and the severity of the situation.

America won. For the 7th year straight.
Congratulations Team USA.
jamma10
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9/22/2011 3:34am
Antipodean wrote:
Hey, jamma, don't let the Yanks get under yer skin. So, do ya follow a football team - and I'm referring to "real" football.
I follow football but don't really support anyone in particular.

Much like motocross really, I don't have much of an allegiance to anyone. But don't tell the Americans that, they think I hate them because I occasionally discuss the finer points... Smile
9/22/2011 3:43am Edited Date/Time 9/22/2011 3:44am
No worries, mate. I love the Americans myself; however, I've found that they don't take any type of criticism very well. Despite all of their achievements - and damn, they've got some pretty impressive achievements - it sometimes feels like, as a nation, they're still in that awkward, uncertain, early-teenage phase where they don't quite know how to act and often say some incredibly dumb stuff. And yes, I do appreciate the irony (if that's what it is) that these observations are coming from an Aussie, whose country is some two hundred years younger than America.
jamma10
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9/22/2011 4:05am
Antipodean wrote:
No worries, mate. I love the Americans myself; however, I've found that they don't take any type of criticism very well. Despite all of their achievements...
No worries, mate. I love the Americans myself; however, I've found that they don't take any type of criticism very well. Despite all of their achievements - and damn, they've got some pretty impressive achievements - it sometimes feels like, as a nation, they're still in that awkward, uncertain, early-teenage phase where they don't quite know how to act and often say some incredibly dumb stuff. And yes, I do appreciate the irony (if that's what it is) that these observations are coming from an Aussie, whose country is some two hundred years younger than America.
Cant tell you how pleased I was for the Aussies and particularly Reed on Sunday - even though it was at the expense of GB. It was only a matter of time before you guys finally got your podium (after all their bad luck in previous years... if Im allowed to mention that?) and you could tell it meant a great deal to Chad standing up there, they did Sharkey proud.
jemcee
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9/22/2011 5:11am Edited Date/Time 9/22/2011 5:12am
The problem with saying that you make you're own luck, in motocross so much can go wrong.. and the fact that stuff doesn't go wrong more often is lucky in itself.. it's such a knife edge especially when teams are pushing for any advantage so I do consider a problem that hasn't happened all year going wrong at the worst time, unlucky like pourcels tyre, sorry tire or Cairoli breaking his clamps
it just seems that, that stuff doesn't happen to the US (yeah yeah preparation shut up) and happens to everyone else always some little (or big) stupid problem that never happens will happen.. or what IF one of the Ryans got injured and I'm stoked that neither were but IF, you guys would have sent who? Alessi? Weimer again still a strong team and would still be a favourite (obviously) but it would've definately slimmed the chances of a 1-2 in moto 3
I say that you don't have good luck in MX but you can definately have bad

but all that said it doesn't effect me one bit who wins or loses I'm happy Aus got on the podium and annoyed me a little that US won again haha but only cause it happens every year and I knew what this place would be like (granted it's only one or two tools that are over the top) but that's as far as it goes with me
I wonder what some of you get out of it like it somehow improves your life that 3 kids from your country beat 3 kids from another country
what does my sig say....

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