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Quit crying, it won't change a thing... Bottom line, U.S.A. won the 2011 MXDN, again...
BMan-
2009 - If they'd have gotten better starts, it's not an issue, is it? Those crashes were caused by THEM getting bad starts.
2010 - Technical problem the team should've been able to sort out and didn't. Bad for Team France, but preventable.
2011 - See 2010.
And yes, the same goes for Dungey at Freestone. Championships aren't won by riders alone. People sign up to race for Pro Circuit for less money than other teams because they want the best chance to win. Winning requires a good program. Programs include bike and team, training (trainer), diet, and everything else in your life.
It's all part of it, and it's all the choice of the rider when push comes to shove.
BMan-
The Shop
BMan-
1. The best country (the original and officially the only thing to be won)
2. Best individual rider in each class (typically the most debated issue with the event.)
To my knowledge there is little to debate as to who has the best team. The US hasn´t been defeated since what, 99? (excluding the no-shows of 01, 02 and 04) That isn´t luck. The team includes the riders and the infrastructure around them down to bikes and parts. I can´t remember a mechanical by the US, so if my memory serves me right there have been no DNF´s from 2005 - 2011 at least. And on top of this I´d like to add that the US teams have to make their bikes FIM legal before the event, unlike GP riders who have raced bikes in compliance with FIM rules all season. So basically the GP bikes should in theory hold up better in terms of motors and exhaust systems at least. Another factor are the tracks which usually are used for GP´s. They have a different style, layout and surface than most US national tracks.
The second aspect of the MXDN´s are the individual class winners. It´s an unofficial victory which I guess hardcore fans enjoy just as much as the overall because it gives us a chance (the only chance...?) to asess the speed of AMA vs GP riders from all the classes (excluding MX3 for all countries except teams with no chance of contending for a win, unless you want to call the B-final a win that is). Its the aspect which brings the most discussion and trolling. The US usually brings the national champ in both classes + whatever American is the second best option for either 250s or 450s. It tends to be a second 450 rider as the 250s are littered with foreigners. If you compare the teams, no other country can show up with the talent that the US has. Assuming the GP´s and AMA series are evenly matched in speed, there are still no countries with 2-3 reigning champs on it. The best candidates for 2nd might have one champ + one GP winner, but they never have 2 champs, much less 3 (counting the possibility of having 2 different champs for SX and MX) But the whole point here is that people confuse the individual class wins and the whole AMA vs GP debate with the actual trophy - the best nation. It doesn´t matter if the US has 310 million people and Belgium has less than 10% of that. The US still gets the overall because they have the best team. I also think this is another reason why GP fans tend to look at the individual class results because that is the only way for anyone to beat the US at the MXDN´s. Its like a win when you´re still losing. And I´m guilty of it too. I was swearing like a mad man when CPs tire fell apart, and I cheered like man possessed when Cairoli passed both Tedesco and Villopoto at MAtterly basin. BUT, the US still won. Had Strijbos not crashed Belgium might have won that day. But guess what, Tedesco - a last minute fill in for RC, just coming back from an injury himself, kept it on two wheels both races. He didn´t win any races, but he certainly didn´t crash. And his bike didn´t DNF either. And it´s like that EVERY year. Regardless if James was passed fair and square by Everts (I´d like to think so, because it makes me happy), The US still walked away with the Chamberlain trophy yet again. Maybe they didn´t have the best riders or rides that day, but that doesn´t matter in terms of the MXDN´s. We need to stop making excuses. I´m sure CP would have proved to the world and his home crowd why he is the weird legend that he is. But yet again a Euro team loses. Sure it was a DNF, but how many DNF´s did the US team have? None!
Before the race the US needed to go 1-2. France had to get in between them. The gate dropped and the US put themselves in 1st and 2nd. Pourcel did his job, but Paulin was in 6th and finished in 8th (CP out might have had someehting to do with his lack of aggressiveness in moto two, but so what). Thats´s the difference. The US rode across the finishline toghether, and France lost by what became a huge margin - on home ground. It was a shame, but it is also reality.
http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/Americans-are-heros,12248…
"What do you do when you feel like the world has fallen? What do you do when you feel like all you ever worked for, aimed for, thought about, doesn't really matter? When you feel like there's no real reason to wake up to see tomorrow?"
1 :Learn to accept who you are. It's one of the hardest things to follow through on, but it's definitely most rewarding. It's so easy to look in the mirror and point out your insecurities about the MXON
2. "Realize your imperfections and then let go. Are you too bossy? Are you too critical of yourself? You're lazy, right? " You will be able to see you are on the boards trying to bend reality to your will because you are insecure.
3. "Be honest with yourself." Admit the American keep winning the MXON year after year
4. "Remember that you can't fix it until you can admit there is a problem" believing the Euros are better when reality states otherwise.
5." Avoid the common "Do-overs" It's your life and your reality. What happened in the past, happened in the past. You just can't change history." The Americans keep winning because they are the best.
6. "Learn that life is the way it is." The Americans are just better and faster riders.
Once you admit you have a problem accepting reality, you will feel better about yourself. You will no longer feel the need to try to change history to match your beliefs (Often called (borderline disorder) Once you are honest with yourself, accept that you can't change history, accept reality and that life is the way it is. You will be on your way to be a mentally healthy person.
If you find yourself wavering, come back here and we will remind you of reality that the Americans are better faster riders over the Euros, and you will feel better about life. LOL
Every one of Americas victories is thoroughly deserved and Im not trying to take that away from them. Its simply the ludicrous suggestion that these victories are so easy to come by that riles me and the refusal to even acknowledge that many of the events in recent years have ultimately been decided by unbelievably bad luck, not a huge gulf in skill level that some deluded people seem to revel in believing.
With comparably limited resources and often countless injury woes most of the other nations competing at the MXdN face a massive task in beating the US every year. Yet year after year they push them all the way until a freak incident invariably happens over which they have very little if not no control whatsoever.
There are maybe 4 MX1 GP riders who have the measure of (not necessarily beating) Villopoto & Dungey;
Cairoli
Desalle
Frossard
Pourcel
Two of those were out injured before the event even started, one of them crashed in the sludge in first corner of the first race and then ruined his weekend trying to make up for it and the other guys mousse popped off the rim while lying in second place in the last race... and how many times does that happen?
Its not sour grapes, its simply disappointment that these things inevitably seem to happen at the MXdN. The phrase 'Handed to on a plate' springs to mind.
- In '08, Boissiere just had to finish the last few laps of the last moto in order for France to win but he was running (the only) tubeless tires in the field, which were known by then to suffer those kind of flats occasionally, the bad part being that once the tubeless is flat, you just can't continue as it pops out of the rim;
- Last sunday, the (different) tire manufacturer's crew, under pressure from the busy MXDN motos schedule and the weird track conditions of the day, changed the tire on CP's replacement bike (he used his replacement bike in moto 3) but kept the (new) mousse which was there (which is a no-no, by their own standards, once a mousse has been mounted before, you don't re-mount it, whether it has actually been used or not, that means if Pourcel had brought his moto 1 bike for the tire service, they would definitely have changed the mousse and maybe nothing would have happened) and, to make things worse, that mousse was not compatible with the tire that CP choosed for that moto. Both Desalle and Nagl (the latter during a GP moto) had experienced the same problem with the same mousse/tire brand earlier this season, triggering strict choices and procedures to be applied from the mounting crew, procedures which were unfortunately not applied this time on Pourcel's rear wheel. We hear someone has been fired on the site by the manufacturer over this.
For the conspiracy theory's supporters, it has to be noted that both tire manufacturers in '08 and '11 were italian!... Just kidding.
So overall, yes, Team France was pretty unlucky in the sense that, in each occasion, their rider was using product and service beyond anyone's control within the Team.
But one must admit this kind of stuff never happens to Team USA (which, somehow, proves something) hence its record at that event.
So USA were the best AND France had (real) bad luck.
Especially if you consider the fact that CP's goggle problem in moto 1 has been officially diagnosed as a defective lens which broke like "they had not seen before", resulting in debris being stuck between the goggles and CP's face for 5 laps before the rain started pouring, forcing him to pull them off and pit stop.
If conspiracy theorists still read this, the goggle manufacturer in question is... American !
Team USA deserve to win because they do what they have to do, but at the same time France were unlucky to lose, and it happens every year. Both Belgium and Germany had a massive chance too if their top riders hadn't got injured. They don't win because their riders are individually better than the rest of the worlds, they win because they have a strong team every single year, compared to other nations. It would be the same in reverse if the US states competed against the three best European riders.
The main problem is Americans think that winning the MXDN is prove they are better than Europe, which is a ridiculous arguement lol Somehow they see it as Europe v USA or GPs v AMA based soley on the team nations results... that logic is nuts!
America won the Nations race, that is all. All the rest of the presumption of AMA being superior to GPs etc is idiotic and false. The Nations race is nothing like a GP series, and cannot be compared, a lot of top GP riders were not even there!
America took advantage of other teams bad luck and lack of riders. That is not their fault and they did what they have to do they are great at doing that... like I thought before the event, their starts and mental stength would prove vital, but I didn't think France would be so unucky. CP was on it in that moto passing Dungey and catching RV who knows what would have happened, he also had a lens pop out in race one from a rock which cost him positions as well.
I think individually the US riders are not any better than the GP riders ... that was proven yet again.... Herlings beat RV stuck in third gear, Roczen passed both Ryans on a 250f, and CP was on his way to doing the same, all riders at the top of either series are very close in speed regardless of nationality.... that is the important thing to take away as well as saying well done to the USA for taking advantage of other teams bad luck and doing what they need to do to win, and being the best mx country for another year.
It's fair observation as long as you use it consistently, as in you can't judge two individual riders when one has a team in contention and another doesn't, and both ride accordingly.
In the end the event is a team event, and its object is team results. It's "idiotic and false" to elevate individual riders' wins to too much importance relative to other riders if that rider isn't in it for a team win.
By the way, never argue with Nerd, and especially never argue with Nerd about luck. Just sip your tea and nod.
I get a kick out of the comment "..passed both ryans..." and "..Herlings beat them stuck in 3rd gear....." how did he do when he could shift and use all his gears(25 secs back?) and how many times did RV pass Ken and how far back did he catch him from? Amazing!!!
pourcel was very unlucky, i think he would have won that last race- he was definitely onit! We will never know, but there was definitely alot of bad luck for CP that day!!!
Tommy searle rode great- bring on the des nations next year!!! I will definitely be there (and will tie it in with a weeks riding trip again)- I hope USA turn up, but i dont think they will!!! If they do show up- you will be amazed at the speed jeffrey herlings can get round that track!!!! he is something else in the sand
cairoli is due a good mx des nations aswell!! He has had a few good motos (his moto win at matterly 06 and his moto win in 09 for example) but seems to have bad luck pretty much every year!
Pit Row
That said, when a team is in contention the riders go at it differently until it's make or break or the event is in the bag. The event is about that, not a test of performance by guys with no holds barred because they lack talented co-riders to make their team competitive. No one with half a brain denies that.
This was a hard fought year for the US team, especially with Bagget's results (which both hindered the team and made the difference because of how he came back). The French had enough go wrong to outweigh what went right. As Xavier explains, that was in large part due to non-rider human mistakes. That's not luck, that's a bummer.
As far as luck, Cairolli may be the unluckiest guy ever over the last few years.
What I mean to say is bad luck and breakdowns can happen to the best. After all, an EFI failure = bad prep? Be reasonable ffs.
Riders are in, or they are out for MXdN. RC was out for 2006, and the US Team went and won. I was bummed to see Desalle out and other riders too, but that is the way it went. Move on.
Please point out all of the "luck" issues. A rock in the goggles, that has never happened before in MX. Roost is a new thing? That is when a rider is tested. Toss the goggles and go for it. Or, choose to pull over, loose time, and race with clean goggles. CP's choice.
As far as the tire/tube/mousse deal, it does seem like the team wasn't prepped and had the right setup. The other 39 riders finished. I don't see that Bib Mousse has taken over the tube business. Maybe its a risk in MX and a tube would have been a safer bet. I wouldn't call that luck, just a bad choice and preparation. Either way, move on.
I hope Eli isn't on the same lites coast as Ken and Dean, for your sanity.
And to think Pourcel could go the speed of Villo or Dungey for more than 4 or 5 laps is laughable............
2. Marc de Reuver-a sand specialist from the Netherlands-said he was-and I quote-"shocked" at how fast James Stewart was in the sand. Where is Stewart from? Florida. Where do both Ryans spend a large amount of time? Florida. Just an FYI, all the GP fans going on and on about Herlings in the sand started sounding stupid some time ago. He's fast in the sand. We got it. Move on. Really. Please.
3. I was wondering how long it would take McCread to get on here and start in on how the AMA riders are no better than the GP riders, how you can't compare the 2 series, yada yada yada. Turns out it was not long. Of the riders on the top 3 teams, 7 of 9 were are are AMA riders: Villopoto, Dungey, Baggett, Pourcel, Musquin, Reed, and Metcalf.
On Saturday, with no rain and straight 450 vs 450 and 250 vs 250, the U.S. went 1-1-1. 2 of the 3 individual class winners on Sunday were AMA (and American) riders. Roczen will be AMA next year. The fact is that McCread is simply wrong when he says AMA riders are no faster than the GP riders. They are. They have to be. The pace is faster in the U.S. right out of the gate. GP rider after GP rider comes over here and says so-including NUMEROUS world champs. The U.S. has also has 16 rounds of supercross, which are 18 minute sprints over insane jumps and whoops that requires near perfect starting technique. Roczen pretty much sucked when he started racing them but then began to learn and adapt to the technique and pace and then WON in Vegas. Racers here do not have to learn different cultures, food, languages, etc. and those things have nothing whatsoever to do with going fast on a motorcycle. AMA racers focus on 1 thing-going as fast as they possibly can. If they lose focus on that, someone else who doesn't lose focus will probably beat them.
The fact that the occasional GP rider is able to come over and adapt to the faster pace and even succeed shows that it not a domain that is owned by where you are born. If you are willing to come over and pay the price, you can succeed as well. But you'd better be one tough mother, like the South Africans (Albertyne, Langston, Ratray) and the Australians (Reed, Metcalfe, Byrne), if you hope to do well here.
Pilotdude, just a reminder, those quali races dont count...well unless the US doesnt win them, then that is all we would be hearing about
Post a reply to: What sets Team USA apart? Luck? Not even close.