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Forgive my ignorance, but I would think after many years of data gathering the suspension manufacturers would have figured out what works and what doesnt. Physics are physics and at the end of the day the suspension just needs to maintain a certain compression/rebound speed in various scenarios. So what makes A-Kit suspension so much better than, say, a simple revalve and respring of the stock components? Doesn't it just come down to suspension speed at various force levels? Does A Kit suspension just offer more fine tuning/adjustment than a high speed and low speed valving stack? Is there variable speed stacks? Doesn't it just all come down to spring force curves and damping forces?
Many will tell you it is the coatings and tolerances but it is more than that. I have a pre-A kit Showa works fork and we took it apart to compare with a stock Showa fork and it was hard to see any major physical differences. The internals were kashima coated and all, but one would expect to see more of a difference to account for the better performance.. the performance I speak if is a plush fork that just doesnt bottom as hard or as easily as most stock forks. It is harder to get both in a stock fork and the coatings dont account for it.
I once heard an explanation that the A-kits's bigger valves allow for bigger diameter shims which help make the stroke smoother with less spike when the shims begin to lift. This suspension guy said that an important goal in suspension tuning is tuning out this spike when the shims begin to lift. Larger diameter dampers with softer shims equals a more variable and better feel than a smaller diameter damper with stiffer shim stacks. This relates to what suspension tuners talk about when they tell you that an A-kit offers more “tunining options” because of the bigger dampers.
He went on to say that “float gap” is another critical setting. “Too tight and it’s harsh, too wide and you “waste stroke” before the dampening kicks in. With bigger shims, you can keep the gap on the tighter side, but the edges somewhat softer, and still have ample surface for progressive and smooth high speed dampening".
The above explanation was the best explanation I have ever gotten on why the A-kit can work better than a production fork.
mike
But tbh its internals, size, and quality of them.
1 click can be felt in some setups by whomever. Factory's stuff very well might be 1/4 of a click in 1 versus what I just said
or 2 1/4 in 1 against the non factory stuff.
depending on the shock body, bladder, size, and valving of it. It's the little things, and unlimited budget is where they win.
Everything ran on a 250F in the pro ranks can be bought in America. It even can't cost more than I think $$8k?? Good luck finding decent triple clamps. That's usually the hardest part. But boy do the fork lugs look purrtttty. But with 3D printing CNC machines billet isn't that rare or expensive to produce hopefully stock oem stuff will get them soon PC showa kit and you're in business. Along with the clamps, and when it's time to service them only they can do it. They won't sell the bigger internals to anyone but their team and support riders. I remember reading a while back that FCHonda runs stock tubes but internals off their shelf that they sell and offer. But tbh everyone says that the YZ's are basically factory suspension stock, and that could be wrong they may actually be better than factory stuff because of valving depending on person and riding type. TM's come with an identical fork and they get trashed on. Why?? Valving it's simply setup and valving. Yamaha has a deal with KYB that allows them to get exclusive rights to that valving setup on all their bikes and no one else. They did offer a ti shock spring there for a while too. Saved weight but was quit touchy and didn't exactly break in.
I also do agree that 10-15 year old fine statement. Best bike I've ever owned out of the box suspension and just overall was an 06 YZ 125. Best bike after setting it up would be a 06 RM 250.
And best four stroke I've ever ridden was an 08 Honda with true b kit on it. Very very very well balanced bike and above average on nearly every measurable trait.
250f class doesn't matter it's all about hp. But just remember on your style and know two turn while two others don't but they're stable
I believe everything he said is pretty much correct. But like I said not familiar with air stuff. I'm just as ex racer who was fortunate enough to ride and race with most this stuff we are discussing, but didn't know what or where anything went but the "gas and water" till after I stopped riding
The Shop
Edit- I when I posted this, I wasn't doubting you. I just wanted to clarify that, in case you perceived it that way... I had never heard of Cashima internals, but by no means do I know much about the specifics of the internals. I drop my stuff off and pick it up when's it's ready to go. I wish I knew more and could at least service them myself, but I never had the time or desire to learn. I did see the inside of a set of Cone Valve forks that I had last year and their was no Cashima in there, but I believe they have some sort of hard Annodizing or maybe a type of DLC on some of the internals. The Showa stuff I've owned or the KYB stuff my son has now might have Cashima coatings inside ?
The A-Kit suspension is only as good as the setup. If it's not set up properly for YOU, it's not going to work properly and you're wasting your money buying them. I've only purchased 2 sets of brand new SHOWA kit suspension and they were for my son, who could benefit from them at the time. We got a couple a B-Kit sets for him in the past as well and they were set up by RG3('06 RMZ250). These were all very good and were a big help for my son, who was racing the A class at the time. The following year, the bikes changed and the shock wouldn't fit the new bikes. I sold the A-Kit sets and returned the B-Kits to the team and I had Enzo valve and spring the stock forks/ shock until I could get some new kit stuff for the new model ('07 RMZ250) I was shocked when he came in after his first Moto on the bike. He told me that they felt every bit as good as the RG3 A-Kit and B-Kit stuff that he had been racing with all year. I figured it was just the new bike feel and he was just satisfied with them, which was great and all, but I couldn't wait to get the new A-Kit stuff on the bike to see how he felt then. I bought another set of slightly used forks and a new shock and had them set up from the guy I bought them from, who worked at Factory Connection. When we went riding for the first time, we were messing with them all day to try and find the right settings for him. We had gotten 4 more bikes from Suzuki and I put the forks that Enzo had already done, onto one of the new bikes. We took that bike along with the bike that he had with the A-Kit on it and after riding back to back on a rough day at Glen Helen, he said he wanted to race with the stuff that Enzo had revalved. It really is all about the suspension being properly setup for the person riding it.
This is the first time I have ever had A-Kit stuff and after having it I will never go back.
Hell first time I rode new suspension it wasn't even broken in and it was 100 times better. Had a huge smile on my face!
Buy A-Kit stuff if you can make it happen.
After trying his bike (set up similar weight) out at the Sacramento Hangtown track it didn't feel much better than the stock oem KYB stuff set up by FC. I couldn't justify the $6K he was asking for the forks, shock & triple clamps.
Also comparing it to a 2007 CR250r Showa FC B-kit (with some A-kit internals) currently owned I didn't feel the A-kit was any better as well.
If your not riding at the top level I don't believe the A-kit (unless it's a ktm with WP) will be an improvement over the newer gen suspension set up by a good reputable suspension company. The suspension on modern production bikes started getting much better in 2005. Again with the WP components being the exception.
The wtf is this would be pretty funny.
DLC, Ti Nitride , and superfinishing on the components will help them work better .
As for the feet, 3D printing is not billet, as someone else said,, 3D printed feet exist , but the practicalities of validating the build quality , plus the cost,mean billet fork bottoms will be factory for a long while to come.
I'm not a machinist philg... But I used autocad once in wood shop
Sounds like you have a good suspension setup though. Run what works for you, but make sure you get the bushing and seals serviced because they will begin to loosen up and get sloppy just as fast as the oem stuff.
The stuff the PC bikes or anyone for that matter doesn't cost more than this in the 125/250 class
Pit Row
Why so many like the 04 yami. It's a very tacky and gripping bike. The 05 has a rigid feeling causing the front end to push.
Ever ridden a kawi that felt like you were always looking for somewhere to put the front tire to finally pivot in a corner but there is no where to put it till you finally slide into a berm???
Or your Honda where the rear end coming out, in or at any point of them feels like a salmon side swapping back and forth on deck of your boat?
Total opposite machines. 10 Honda is a point and turn bike. kawi is a twist and lean bike. One you ride over the tank and Twist your hips while leaning the body. The other you point the hip and twist your shoulder. Think of RV hitting a corner then picture Dungey hitting a corner of you don't quite get my meaning. the other you ride in the saddle can do it however suits the situation.
10 Hondas aren't very good in the chop TBH. Not much you can do there. But they corner inside 180 flat hard corners or ruts like MF'er. If you put a oversized forks on it it. You would just lose that tacky flex that makes it so great in the flat corners or anything that you turn turn in the bars not out. But willl give you opportunity to a higher fork tube height which will give means more sag and won't feel like your backs parallel with the fender while coming into corner at times.
I recommend what i jokingly saying in the first post. Tighten up the steering stem. You'd be very very surprised just how tight some people run theirs. I've always had Kawis and can't stand it. I run my bikes very stink bugged like stew in a way. But the red bikes of 09 and up require the opposite. And that's what I believe Eli doesn't like about his green machine. He has to learn to ride the bike completely opposite of what he knows. Because it's an incorrect form that he is struggling with from a bench racing standpoint, and stew is always washing out cause he still has his bike stink bugged like he's on a kawi. Needs to balance it out as does Eli just in opposite directions.
But in reality I'm no technician and no mechanical engineer just a 25 year old kid who's ridden for way to many years. I Am just able to explain the reactions and input I learned and utilized since I was 2 years old in words these days.
What made the motorcycle more effective to you was a combination of manipulating that spectrum. But when you move the bar it doesn't change the median. That's always consistent. You just rode it in the ideal conditions in which it was suited. I gave you the characteristics and why they do it despite situation or motorcycle.
Yeah I bet it was I'm not denying that either! I had b kit kyb stuff on my last YZ 250 which basically means a kit but same size components. And I rode a friends with some oversized stuff that was same speed and weight as me and loved it on a high speed clay but hard pack track that gets ripped real deep in the am but is blue groove by evening. You're able to throw it right through the shit, and in general 2 strokes can be driven deeeeep into a corner and brake much later and turn quicker than any 4 banger.
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