Posts
29071
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA
US
Edited Date/Time
3/23/2015 9:53am
Yesterday, while out riding, I had a talk with a young man that's an accomplished rider, tester, photographer and writer. He IS a fan of 2-Strokes. As am I. I've got a KX500SR stashed in my office that is simply Awesome and I have a '78-'79 CR250R (FIM-RC conversion) that's kinda silly cool, too (Thanks Newman!).
We were talking about New Bikes, Homologation, the Rules for the Nationals & SX...etc.
We got back to the discussion of 2-storkes and the people responsible for/promoting/making them at the OEM's... namely the ones that make current 2-strokes...and how the sales aren't in tune with what is "said" on the forums.
The most notable issue: The number of units sold and the needs for homologation (400). You know those "$1000 off KTM 2-Strokes"? Those hold-over YZ's standing right next to the New '15s on the showroom floor? Well, those are indicative of the simple fact that they AREN'T moving in the numbers that some people think.
That means people AREN'T BUYING THEM.
So, to revisit the obvious:
1. You can't homologate without a certain number of units.
2. You can't get the company to allow you to import a bunch of '15s when there's still plenty of '14s in Inventory (The dilemma for the guys at Yamaha and KTM, USA that're fighting for YOUR cause)
3. 4-Strokes are winning; because, that's what people ARE BUYING.
4. Better sales would fund MORE R&D. Period.
5. Where's all the "I put my money where my mouth is!"?
If you're going to scream about some sort of conspiracy?
If you're going to blame the OEMS?
If you've got a point?
PROVE IT. Buy SOMETHING.
Bring'em Back!
* "Vital 2 Stroke Community " is utilized due to the simple fact that this is the home of the Vital 2-Stroke crowd, you know: The guys that've thrown everyone and everything UNDER THE BUS...from the AMA, MX Sports, Honda to the companies that're still making the bikes in question.
We were talking about New Bikes, Homologation, the Rules for the Nationals & SX...etc.
We got back to the discussion of 2-storkes and the people responsible for/promoting/making them at the OEM's... namely the ones that make current 2-strokes...and how the sales aren't in tune with what is "said" on the forums.
The most notable issue: The number of units sold and the needs for homologation (400). You know those "$1000 off KTM 2-Strokes"? Those hold-over YZ's standing right next to the New '15s on the showroom floor? Well, those are indicative of the simple fact that they AREN'T moving in the numbers that some people think.
That means people AREN'T BUYING THEM.
So, to revisit the obvious:
1. You can't homologate without a certain number of units.
2. You can't get the company to allow you to import a bunch of '15s when there's still plenty of '14s in Inventory (The dilemma for the guys at Yamaha and KTM, USA that're fighting for YOUR cause)
3. 4-Strokes are winning; because, that's what people ARE BUYING.
4. Better sales would fund MORE R&D. Period.
5. Where's all the "I put my money where my mouth is!"?
If you're going to scream about some sort of conspiracy?
If you're going to blame the OEMS?
If you've got a point?
PROVE IT. Buy SOMETHING.
Bring'em Back!
* "Vital 2 Stroke Community " is utilized due to the simple fact that this is the home of the Vital 2-Stroke crowd, you know: The guys that've thrown everyone and everything UNDER THE BUS...from the AMA, MX Sports, Honda to the companies that're still making the bikes in question.
Vital is an enthusiast forum so it's going to lean 2 stroke, but a poll that simply asked how many new mx bikes you have bought in the last 4 years and how many were 2 or 4 strokes would tell us a lot. I'm sure the 4 strokes way outnumber the 2 strokes by a huge amount.
Had to laugh at that one.
What is happening , is that guys that dont have $7k to lay out on a new bike are buying old stuff and putting money in when they can.... making it affordable.
The Shop
This isn't a simple sales number issue. It runs deeper since pro sanctioned races went the direction of giving 4-strokes an advantage which in turn made teams spend more and people spend more (since they want to emulate the pros, or they are an up and coming rider who won't be taken seriously unless they are on a 4-stroke to some day go "pro")
Take a look at the snowmobile industry? Polaris used to make fourstroke sleds but abandoned the technology because they got their two-stroke fuel-injected motors to the point where it was as fast, as environmentally friendly, as reliable, and as fuel efficient as the four-strokes. And they weigh 50 pounds less! The two-stroke 800cc motor is still the engine of choice for people looking for sleds, so it's not out of the question that the two-stroke technology could make a comeback in this industry as well.
Like the OP said, all it takes is more people asking for two-strokes than are asking for fours. Unfortunately, just like you'll never talk some people into driving a stick-shift car (or vice-versa), you'll never talk some people into buying a two-stroke.
I remember for the 2013 model, the SX250 was sold out in the US by october 2012 or something like that. Some people paid 8k+ happily and drove halfway around your country just to get one of these bikes. Since then, KTM has upped the production and yeah, now you will see the odd leftover 2-stroke sitting at a dealer floor, especially now because there are Husky's available as well. But please don't kid yourselves, the amount of unsold 4-strokes has no comparison to that of the 2-strokes.
As much as people can say they want them, or even sales reps and other managers ask for updates, you're dealing with number guys at manufactures that decide where budget does. This how they look at it:
R&D "We want more money to make upgrades to this 2-stroke"
Budget guys "How many are we selling vs our other models?"
Some analytic guy "For the 250 2-stroke, we made XXX amount and we still have X amount leftover at the end of the year. For the 450 4-stroke, we made XXXXX amount and had X amount leftover."
Budget guys "Hmmm, what happened to people asking for more 2-strokes?"
Analytic guy "They're buying them from Craigslist"
Budget guys "Okay, budget for 4-stroke development will be XXXXXXX, 2-stroke will be X."
KTM is of course more updated, but it seems they started from behind. I've never heard anything about the new KTMs blowing away the YZ.
"Is this another "buy a brand new 2-stroke every 6 months or shut the fuck up" thread?"
"So only people who are in the new bike market are allowed to have an opinion on rules in pro racing?"
"Yes because only those with massive amounts of disposable income are allowed to have an opinion."
The usual snide and "us-n-them" crap we hear from you guys. Better, yet, is the personal implications of my intent, thanks, to which you guys are welcome to "EABOBOD".
Address the point; if, you will: There are OEM's that're fulfilling the need AND are still developing, albeit -slowly-, new 2T technology. Better sales would incentivize better development.
Pit Row
He get's it.
I don't know about the yellow spokes...but...
I'll bet it's really easy to spot your bike on the track!
Really nice scoot!
There are a lot of Sherco 300 2T's getting around ATM as well. I don't think we even have a local dealer for those.
Are you going to answer my question or just use it to build your strawman? I'll go a step further, what about the thousands of fans who don't even ride (anymore)?
Others have made the point about the KTM 2T "off-road" bikes...and. it's true: They're are A LOT of them!
Note: 2T Models that're homologated for 2015, as I understand it, are just "barely" making it in by the number. Husky knows they could have sold quite a bit more; but, didn't have the capacity to get them done on time...so...to be fair...
So, There's always that!
Btw, the guy that runs Husky, in Europe, you know...The Company? He's very Moto and he's been known to walk out on a GNCC course and "take it all in". Saw him in Florida during Daytona Bike Week...the dude is all about the bikes...from MX to Enduro to Desert...From Dual-Sport to Adventure...
My smoker is a 2007. It's a 2007 because
1. it cost me $2500 and is as good as any other 250 2 stroke available new for 6k.
2. other than cheap to rebuild the motor, it's not a better bike to race.
- it's harder to ride
- less forgiving
- harder to jump
- not as competitive in a class full of 4 stroke as another 4 stroke which is easier to ride fast in more situations
I love 2 strokes as much as anyone else as they are super fun and such, but I must admit technology has moved forward. 4 strokes are so much more tractable and so much easier to ride with such broad power.
The only way 2 strokes will come back main stream in MX and SX is if a sanctioning body forces it. And I don't see them doing that, because why would they? The sport is bigger than it ever has been. I'm not going to stop racing until 2 strokes come back and neither is anyone else. We are all going to buy a 4 stroke because it's what is most effective against other 4 strokes and life will go on. Period, end of discussion.
Darryl :p
Sales enables Homologation (See the rules on this/qty's req'd; hence, the implication)
Sales empowers the OEM's to secure R&D, the point made above by ML512.
A strong market creates demand.
Demand breeds competition among the OEMs.
Build Demand.
Again, you guys and your Debbie Downer Negativity "ain't helping".
So, this is where you come in with your "a 250 is a 250! No matter what kind of 250 it is!"
Good
Luck
With
That
When I bought my bike last spring, I had remembered how hard it was to find a 2013 250SX anywhere, KTM must have upped the production volume to reflect this, because when I bought my bike, my dealer had sold 25 2014 250SXs alone...
Oh and BTW, the sales thing isn't as instantaneous of a number as you would think. After KTM ships it to a dealer, to the KTM company, that is a sale. Dealers order what they think they can sell pre model year. The act of retail selling, and KTM selling are two different things.
Post a reply to: (*)Vital 2 Stroke Community ain't helping the cause...