Those flaggers don't know how to flag

pbody
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6/5/2017 12:39pm
DC wrote:
For what it's worth, I just got off the phone with the MX Sports flagger at the top of the hill, Jimmi De, and he gave...
For what it's worth, I just got off the phone with the MX Sports flagger at the top of the hill, Jimmi De, and he gave me much more insight to what was going on and what he and the other flaggers were trying to do. He did not see where AP went at first because while he saw the crash coming and was literally pulling out his yellow as Aaron was doing his Superman, he didn't see that AP rolled under the banner and out of sight at first.

Jimmi also explained that he got hit at Glen Helen while stepping out in a different type of situation. Flagging is not easy, and while it's easy for any of us to come on here and discuss what we would have done, we may not understand the whole situation, the whole lay of the land, and what is being said in the radios and around the other officials.

He also said only two or three guys really slowed down, and while he's been around racing his whole life, he had never met Nick Wey before and didn't realize that was him who came to help. Like all of us, he's just glad everyone was okay and wants to help learn from this and try to prevent it from happening again.

DC
Racer X
Since there was two flaggers if one had ran down towards the beginning of the corner and begun flagging and directing the riders would have been...
Since there was two flaggers if one had ran down towards the beginning of the corner and begun flagging and directing the riders would have been aware of the situation. Two flaggers right next to each other just trying to wave the flags faster than each other wasn't helping anything.
Agree 100% and my thought exactly. Wanted to post this but I couldn't think of a concise way to say it. Thanks motokawi818!

Always be ahead of the incident and use hand/arm motions to direct so riders have time to adjust.
TDeath21
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6/5/2017 12:54pm
TDeath21 wrote:
Apparently I'm in the minority here because I don't think it was the flagger's fault. He couldn't get out onto the track with the entire pack...
Apparently I'm in the minority here because I don't think it was the flagger's fault. He couldn't get out onto the track with the entire pack coming. Langston was telling them to get on the track and tell the riders where to go. Impossible to do with no break in the action. Theoretically, if Plessinger has a 10 second lead, the flagger can easily step out there and direct the riders left. To compound the situation, the riders coming see the yellow flags and then they see Plessinger on their left. Logic says that's what the flags are for and all hazards are on the left side. Plessinger wasn't helping the situation at all. People are making Wey out to be a hero and he didn't even step in until the pack had cleared and there was a break in the oncoming riders. Wey wouldn't have been able to step into the pack any earlier than he did even if he himself had been the flagger. Blaming the flagger is focusing on 10% of the problem and ignoring the 90%. Most of that 90% were things that couldn't have been controlled anyway.
Possibly. It's not NASCAR though. There's not a pack of 40 guys bump drafting nose to tail. There were natural breaks in traffic to step out...
Possibly. It's not NASCAR though. There's not a pack of 40 guys bump drafting nose to tail. There were natural breaks in traffic to step out a foot. Then another foot. Then another foot. It's not like we're saying the guy should have just leapt in to the middle of the roller in a split second and played chicken. If you see debris in your lane on the highway and you're the first to arrive its a surprise. If you're the 15th car to get to it you see everyone in front of you avoiding it and act accordingly. If no one swerves in front of you you keep going straight.

Plessinger didn't help though. He wasn't necessarily on the edge of the track so it's also dangerous to push traffic towards him. There was maybe a 3-4 foot gap between him and the bike and then another 3-4 feet between the bike and the far edge of the track.Small window to thread when you can't see the land mine on the other side.

I agree there might have been a little bit more they could have done. Plessinger's result would have been the same either way so I'm not sure why he was so mad. He would have had to wait for the entire pack to go between him and his bike regardless. The only person that has a right to be mad is the rider who went down because of it. And we can't be sure the flaggers could have prevented that anyway.
DC
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6/5/2017 1:31pm Edited Date/Time 6/5/2017 1:31pm
"How is passing allowed under a yellow? That seems so counterproductive if you want the riders to "exercise caution" as the rule states, or if you want them to do a better job slowing down, as DC states."

The reason you allow passing on just a yellow is that otherwise, if a bike is down or broken along the track, on a long straight or hill, and the rider needs time to get restarted, or can't get started, as long as the yellow is out, no one could pass in that whole section. That's why WOG flags and medical flags mean absolute things, and yellow advises to exercise caution. It's the last bit that's more of a problem than the passing -- how do we get the riders to exercise more caution?

In this case, the bike fell and stayed in the middle of the track, early in the race, at a blind and fast spot that was hard to direct. If this were Saturday morning and we could have a do-over I would have called Colorado with the suggestion of making that a WOG obstacle because if the blind nature of the hill's crest, even if it wasn't really a big jump or double like we normally assign the WOG flags to. But that's hindsight being 20/20...

DC
Racer X
dboivin
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6/5/2017 1:55pm
i wondered why this was 6 pages so i went and watched the video again. How anyone can be critical of what Nick did is crazy. he did what the flagger should of. And i completely understand why the flagger didn't do it, hes told not to risk injury or make things worse. This was bad situation...probably amplified by Aaron standing where he did.

i've flagged pro events. I woulda done exactly as nick did. I will push myself out in effort to make the guys see how important their line is. The riders self preservation should kick in and realize colliding with me would = DNF. Smile

Flagger also needs to get some animation of how dangerous it is...just simply flapping it doesn't work.

props to nick for doing what was right...on the spot. and others who think Davey isn't trying to make this better, you guys really suck.

The Shop

6/5/2017 1:56pm
Ladies, shake yourselves and calm down. I understand both sides of the argument and I've found the solution.....using one of these, the flagger can extend the flag and everyone is safe! Who do I send my invoice to for the consult?




MXMattii
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6/5/2017 3:17pm
Plessinger is part of the problem too by the way. Look how the stands on the track... The on coming riders need to jump on his bike because he's fooling around on the "escape route". Can the AMA maybe implant some lessons: What to do after a crash and how to react to flags? Because that would solve a lot of things.
TDeath21
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6/5/2017 3:24pm
Someone on this site had an idea a few years back of paying riders who don't make the 40 rider gate to be flaggers. Even just a few in the important blind jumps and the rest being as they are would help tremendously. Someone who is obviously an experienced rider and has ridden that track recently flagging would be great. That way they don't make the drive for nothing if they don't make the 40 rider gate. Or maybe have some guys from the 125 dream race do it? Like DC said, in practice you can throw out the WOG flag here and it won't be an issue. Like I said, you might only need 3-5 riders to do it. Just in the blind dangerous areas such as the one Plessinger was in here and the rest of the flaggers can be the normal crew.
6/5/2017 3:32pm
MXMattii wrote:
Plessinger is part of the problem too by the way. Look how the stands on the track... The on coming riders need to jump on his...
Plessinger is part of the problem too by the way. Look how the stands on the track... The on coming riders need to jump on his bike because he's fooling around on the "escape route". Can the AMA maybe implant some lessons: What to do after a crash and how to react to flags? Because that would solve a lot of things.
Yeah but had the flagger done his job Plessinger would have never had to be in the middle of the track like that. Hard to put the blame on Plessinger, he crashed in the lead and wanted to get back on the bike as quick as possible and flagger was doing him no favours.
JustMX
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6/5/2017 4:33pm
There seems to be a belief that because someone has raced they will automatically make a great flagger. that is incorrect.

That is even more true when you are talking about a rider dealing with disappointment from not qualifying, facing a drive home, and feeling the affects of trying to qualify.

Some of the best flaggers I have seen in 30 years in the sport as a rider and promoter have never thrown a leg over a motorcycle. The story family at LL's come to mind, along with many others.

So many of you are so critical of flaggers all the time, and it is almost cliche on moto boards to say that if you have never flagged you should just stfu,

I will say if you have never put up with the heat/dust/mud/rain/noise/wind/boredom/heart stopping situations/and getting bitched at/about by people that are so happy to tell you that you screwed up no matter what you do, why not give it a shot. I promise you it will change your perspective.
kkawboy14
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6/5/2017 4:37pm
Ladies, shake yourselves and calm down. I understand both sides of the argument and I've found the solution.....using one of these, the flagger can extend the...
Ladies, shake yourselves and calm down. I understand both sides of the argument and I've found the solution.....using one of these, the flagger can extend the flag and everyone is safe! Who do I send my invoice to for the consult?




Dude Bro.....that's pure genius!
kkawboy14
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6/5/2017 4:41pm
TDeath21 wrote:
Apparently I'm in the minority here because I don't think it was the flagger's fault. He couldn't get out onto the track with the entire pack...
Apparently I'm in the minority here because I don't think it was the flagger's fault. He couldn't get out onto the track with the entire pack coming. Langston was telling them to get on the track and tell the riders where to go. Impossible to do with no break in the action. Theoretically, if Plessinger has a 10 second lead, the flagger can easily step out there and direct the riders left. To compound the situation, the riders coming see the yellow flags and then they see Plessinger on their left. Logic says that's what the flags are for and all hazards are on the left side. Plessinger wasn't helping the situation at all. People are making Wey out to be a hero and he didn't even step in until the pack had cleared and there was a break in the oncoming riders. Wey wouldn't have been able to step into the pack any earlier than he did even if he himself had been the flagger. Blaming the flagger is focusing on 10% of the problem and ignoring the 90%. Most of that 90% were things that couldn't have been controlled anyway.
The entire pack wasn't coming, they were trickling by!
stantdm
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6/5/2017 4:45pm
Plessinger was wrong to stand where he did. During the first part of the crash there was no way that any flagger could get out on the track given where they were standing. There were two of them on top of the jump. The best suggestion was by the fellow who mentioned having one flagger move up the track and signal them to the left but they then would have run over Plessinger. Not an easy thing to deal with in this case.

Having flagged a number of Nationals and one SX I will tell you from my experience that the riders pay little attention to yellow flags. They will take a hand signal if they see it, perhaps. They are committed to a line and unless you are way back from the crash site it won't do a lot of good. I thought it was just luck that more riders didn't pile up going over that jump.

Nick Wey needs to stay off the track. By the time he got there the problem was over.
JustMX
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6/5/2017 4:53pm
Yeah but had the flagger done his job Plessinger would have never had to be in the middle of the track like that. Hard to put...
Yeah but had the flagger done his job Plessinger would have never had to be in the middle of the track like that. Hard to put the blame on Plessinger, he crashed in the lead and wanted to get back on the bike as quick as possible and flagger was doing him no favours.
What could the flagger have done differently to keep ap from getting in the middle of the track?

It never looks like ap is trying to keep people from hitting his bike. As good a guy as he might be, he most likely was concerned more about getting back to the bike so he could get back going.

If the flaggers were in the track directing the riders to go to their left it would only make that harder for ap, and actually might have put him at more risk.
captmoto
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6/5/2017 5:14pm
lostboy819 wrote:
I am glad you are supporting the flaggers and I have stated from the start of the thread that they were doing a good job. I...
I am glad you are supporting the flaggers and I have stated from the start of the thread that they were doing a good job. I do think it will be tough to even find flaggers willing to subject themselves to the abuse they get from the peanut gallery here at Vital and TV commentators laying the blame at the flaggers. Make the yellow flag mean something and it will solve some problems and it will also create different problems but those problems like penalties could be addressed after the race and with cool heads and video reference.
I am hearing a lot of volunteers here. They just need to put their hands up.
lostboy819
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6/5/2017 5:24pm
lostboy819 wrote:
I am glad you are supporting the flaggers and I have stated from the start of the thread that they were doing a good job. I...
I am glad you are supporting the flaggers and I have stated from the start of the thread that they were doing a good job. I do think it will be tough to even find flaggers willing to subject themselves to the abuse they get from the peanut gallery here at Vital and TV commentators laying the blame at the flaggers. Make the yellow flag mean something and it will solve some problems and it will also create different problems but those problems like penalties could be addressed after the race and with cool heads and video reference.
captmoto wrote:
I am hearing a lot of volunteers here. They just need to put their hands up.
Yep but most of them are too "core" to flag they just want to tell how the real flaggers are doing everything wrong. Wink
KennyT
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6/5/2017 5:55pm Edited Date/Time 6/5/2017 5:56pm
No offense to the riders but I have found around 99.99% of professional motor sports riders/drivers are completely oblivious to anyone's safety but their own. Just watch a clip of trophy trucks flying within inches of spectators at Baja, or MX riders flying around a track when a yellow flag is displayed. Wey may have had the balls to get a little further onto the track to direct riders but there is no way a low paid or no paid flagger should risk his life by getting any closer to the riders than he was instructed to. If Plessinger lost out on points it is his fault for eating shit in the first place.

Maybe the solution should be to have more "wheels on the ground flags" and use them more often
6/5/2017 6:05pm
If you have never flagged an outdoor national, you have no idea what little regard the riders give to the yellow flag. Trust me, neither Nick Wey, Chuck Norris, or Connor McGregor is stepping out into the track in that situation when the leader goes down and the whole field is coming. The riders do not slow down, even a little on the yellow flag. You cant edge out because they give you no room. There is less than a couple of seconds between riders who are coming at you sometimes three wide. The worst is when the bike is in the middle. If you look at the video, the riders who slowed up a bit had no trouble missing the bike. When you launch off a blind jump, under yellow, with no idea what is under you, you reap what you sow.

I agree with Davey, in hindsight, that would have been a good place for a WOG flag.
6/5/2017 6:14pm
JustMX wrote:
What could the flagger have done differently to keep ap from getting in the middle of the track? It never looks like ap is trying to...
What could the flagger have done differently to keep ap from getting in the middle of the track?

It never looks like ap is trying to keep people from hitting his bike. As good a guy as he might be, he most likely was concerned more about getting back to the bike so he could get back going.

If the flaggers were in the track directing the riders to go to their left it would only make that harder for ap, and actually might have put him at more risk.
The flagger could have done exactly what you said, get in the track and direct the riders to go to where it's safe. There were big enough breaks in the pack that AP could have ran to his bike but he never risked it because he more than likely would have got landed on while he was trying to start it back up or get it off the track.
JustMX
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6/5/2017 8:31pm
JustMX wrote:
What could the flagger have done differently to keep ap from getting in the middle of the track? It never looks like ap is trying to...
What could the flagger have done differently to keep ap from getting in the middle of the track?

It never looks like ap is trying to keep people from hitting his bike. As good a guy as he might be, he most likely was concerned more about getting back to the bike so he could get back going.

If the flaggers were in the track directing the riders to go to their left it would only make that harder for ap, and actually might have put him at more risk.
The flagger could have done exactly what you said, get in the track and direct the riders to go to where it's safe. There were big...
The flagger could have done exactly what you said, get in the track and direct the riders to go to where it's safe. There were big enough breaks in the pack that AP could have ran to his bike but he never risked it because he more than likely would have got landed on while he was trying to start it back up or get it off the track.
So a waving yellow flag is good enough to keep a flagger safe when he steps out into the track in pretty heavy traffic but 3 highly visible waving flags that could be seen by the approaching riders were not enough that AP felt comfortable crossing?

And he was wearing protective gear.

I guess AP knows what most of us know. The riders have very little regard for a yellow flag unless they are the one for whom it is waving
6/6/2017 11:16pm Edited Date/Time 6/6/2017 11:18pm
DC wrote:
"How is passing allowed under a yellow? That seems so counterproductive if you want the riders to "exercise caution" as the rule states, or if you...
"How is passing allowed under a yellow? That seems so counterproductive if you want the riders to "exercise caution" as the rule states, or if you want them to do a better job slowing down, as DC states."

The reason you allow passing on just a yellow is that otherwise, if a bike is down or broken along the track, on a long straight or hill, and the rider needs time to get restarted, or can't get started, as long as the yellow is out, no one could pass in that whole section. That's why WOG flags and medical flags mean absolute things, and yellow advises to exercise caution. It's the last bit that's more of a problem than the passing -- how do we get the riders to exercise more caution?

In this case, the bike fell and stayed in the middle of the track, early in the race, at a blind and fast spot that was hard to direct. If this were Saturday morning and we could have a do-over I would have called Colorado with the suggestion of making that a WOG obstacle because if the blind nature of the hill's crest, even if it wasn't really a big jump or double like we normally assign the WOG flags to. But that's hindsight being 20/20...

DC
Racer X
Plessinger WAS NOT GETTING BACK TO HIS BIKE regardless of flaggers actions in this case. Sometimes you go down in a spot where your good position is totally long gone and you cant get back to the bike. It happens and making it never happen is probably impossible. The flaggers would have had to have been on the side of the track in which AP was standing in order to push the riders to the outside edge. Although at least one guy further up track from the spot AP crashed may have helped, riders still wouldn't have been able to tell where to go. WOG may have slowed riders, but only bunched them up more IMO, making their direction changes last minute more of a problem for each other. Being able to better direct an oncoming line of riders as to which side of the track to steer towards should be one goal. Afterall, we could be talking about a downed rider with injuries getting hit instead of a bike.

One possible solution is if you had one flagger on each side of every blind obstacle, then in the event that the flaggers wanted the riders to go to the oncoming rider's right for example then the flagger on the oncoming rider's left wood run "up track" along side the course waving their flag in a certain fashion letting the Riders know to move themselves in the direction of the opposite flagger who would be waving their flag in a different fashion. If this or similar system was understood and recognized it might be effective. Maybe the flaggers had a certain color light in the end of the flag stick bright enough to see that indicated say Red for blocked side of track vs, Green for clear side of track. They each flip a switch, have comms with each other, and i think I see slight improvements in safety already. Time needs to be spent here.

Now on to my cover letter for an employment opportunity. Lol!
I could make this work better than the current system and have a lifetime of experience dodging riders coming at me after crashing so I have given this plenty of thought. Id say not enough thought can be given to this and if MX Sports would like a guy to apply himself in this area I would be willing to consider. We can sit down at Loretta's this year and discuss ideas on a plan going forward specific to the National tracks while providing assistance to local tracks to help protect the amatuer members of our sport as well. I know there are a lot of us with years of racing behind us, but Id love to be involved in something like this. Like one poster said, we get stuck in one thought pattern or tied up in many details, and a fresh 3rd person perspective could be good.
oldnwise
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6/8/2017 5:48am
How can you blame a flagger?

They don't even get paid!! I wouldn't risk getting injured to step out in front of the whole pack, especially when there is no pay and no insurance.

Put the blame where it belongs....with the cheap-ass promoter. The flaggers are typically just autograph hounds or simply love the sport. The get 10 minutes of training before the races start.

The real problem is that we don't see the real problem....we just want to blame flaggers, lappers, etc. It is so sad to see.

It's all about money (or saving money in this case).
Triton
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6/8/2017 9:57am
Davey,

Anything that you can share about any changes that have been made going into this weekend?
TDeath21
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6/8/2017 10:17am
Raise ticket prices one dollar for everyone and get paid flaggers at each race. Would that be enough? I'm not sure how many flaggers are at each or what average attendance is. Might need two dollars.
Hman144
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6/8/2017 10:37am
I fail to see how sliding a flagger a few bucks will improve the types of situations we had last week. The idea that paying someone to do a job automatically makes them better at it and improves decision making capacity is silly.

At what point would it be enough? Would $50 make eliminate mistakes? Would it take $100?

Experience, training, commitment. Those ingredients cannot be obtained by handing out a slip of legal tender.
JustMX
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6/8/2017 10:49am
I am not sure where some of you guys are getting your info, but unless you live in some mx fairy land or it is a unique situation, like a club promoting the event, flaggers are compensated, and it is probably more than you think.
lostboy819
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6/8/2017 11:21am
JustMX wrote:
I am not sure where some of you guys are getting your info, but unless you live in some mx fairy land or it is a...
I am not sure where some of you guys are getting your info, but unless you live in some mx fairy land or it is a unique situation, like a club promoting the event, flaggers are compensated, and it is probably more than you think.
Yep, they do get paid and they do a good job. David Claubaugh takes good care of his people at Thunder Valley and they do know what they are doing, just sometimes things happen is spots where you cant do much.
oldnwise
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6/8/2017 12:17pm
Well, I have been flagging for 7 years in Supercross and have never been paid a dime. We get 4 tickets, that's it.

That said, I have never flagged for motocross so it could be different.
lostboy819
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6/8/2017 1:05pm
oldnwise wrote:
Well, I have been flagging for 7 years in Supercross and have never been paid a dime. We get 4 tickets, that's it. That said, I...
Well, I have been flagging for 7 years in Supercross and have never been paid a dime. We get 4 tickets, that's it.

That said, I have never flagged for motocross so it could be different.
You need to renegotiate. Wink
Harvdog21
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6/8/2017 1:29pm
Having over 15 years of race promoting at the national level, I can tell you that it's not easy finding good flaggers. We use about 50 flaggers for our round of the outdoor national series, and they are volunteers. It's common that a flagger gets a lunch and a few tickets to the national (and maybe an event t-shirt.)

We have a flagger safety meeting Saturday morning and go over all the situations they may encounter. But it's never perfect. And if the series had to fly 50 flaggers to 12 rounds as professional flaggers, well......someone has to pay for that.

AP's crash was a perfect scenario of very little going right....fast, blind fallaway with a rider visible on the inside of the turn while flaggers waved from the outside. Just glad nobody got seriously hurt.
kkawboy14
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6/8/2017 2:17pm Edited Date/Time 6/8/2017 2:17pm
Harvdog21 wrote:
Having over 15 years of race promoting at the national level, I can tell you that it's not easy finding good flaggers. We use about 50...
Having over 15 years of race promoting at the national level, I can tell you that it's not easy finding good flaggers. We use about 50 flaggers for our round of the outdoor national series, and they are volunteers. It's common that a flagger gets a lunch and a few tickets to the national (and maybe an event t-shirt.)

We have a flagger safety meeting Saturday morning and go over all the situations they may encounter. But it's never perfect. And if the series had to fly 50 flaggers to 12 rounds as professional flaggers, well......someone has to pay for that.

AP's crash was a perfect scenario of very little going right....fast, blind fallaway with a rider visible on the inside of the turn while flaggers waved from the outside. Just glad nobody got seriously hurt.
What would they have done if the rider was laying there with the bike? Let everybody land on him?

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