There needs to be a way to signal riders...

fcr wrote: The flaggers hired are not "pros". They are enthusiasts. That is part of it. The training of the flaggers is minimal from what I can see. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

fcr wrote: The flaggers hired are not "pros". They are enthusiasts. That is part of it. The training of the flaggers is minimal from what I can see. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Tiki wrote: I know a few people that worked the Glen Helen national, I know they race that same track. I cant say its that way at all races, I believe the Hangtown crew is a lot of racers as well. If thats the case they aren't totally green.

Tiki wrote: I know a few people that worked the Glen Helen national, I know they race that same track. I cant say its that way at all races, I believe the Hangtown crew is a lot of racers as well. If thats the case they aren't totally green.

mxmedic wrote: A more reliable warning method is a novel idea, but when everybody is just coming off of the line, it will be very difficult to do anything to warn the other riders quick enough and let them have enough time to react. That's a lot of riders in one small area all at once, and most all of them are just focused on trying to get a good start.

I have not yet seen the MA incident, but sometimes coming off of the start, it doesn't even have to be a jump for someone to go down and end up getting run over repeatedly (ala DV last year at Millville).

mxmedic wrote: A more reliable warning method is a novel idea, but when everybody is just coming off of the line, it will be very difficult to do anything to warn the other riders quick enough and let them have enough time to react. That's a lot of riders in one small area all at once, and most all of them are just focused on trying to get a good start.

I have not yet seen the MA incident, but sometimes coming off of the start, it doesn't even have to be a jump for someone to go down and end up getting run over repeatedly (ala DV last year at Millville).

flarider wrote: NOTHING would've changed the MA incident.
Nothing

Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything.

Starts in racing, all racing, is the most hairball part.
Lot of horsepower, adrenaline, speed, nerves and more mixed together in close quarters, ain't nothing gonna change it.

flarider wrote: NOTHING would've changed the MA incident.
Nothing

Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything.

Starts in racing, all racing, is the most hairball part.
Lot of horsepower, adrenaline, speed, nerves and more mixed together in close quarters, ain't nothing gonna change it.

flarider wrote: NOTHING would've changed the MA incident.
Nothing

Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything.

Starts in racing, all racing, is the most hairball part.
Lot of horsepower, adrenaline, speed, nerves and more mixed together in close quarters, ain't nothing gonna change it.

Phlapjax wrote: x2

Phlapjax wrote: x2

Cygnus wrote: Not a bad idea . But in this case I don't think it would have helped much . All the riders were going so damn fast at that point it only took maybe 10 seconds for them to all be clear . It actually might have caused more riders to crash with guys slamming on the brakes and getting rearended.

Cygnus wrote: Not a bad idea . But in this case I don't think it would have helped much . All the riders were going so damn fast at that point it only took maybe 10 seconds for them to all be clear . It actually might have caused more riders to crash with guys slamming on the brakes and getting rearended.

Racer92 wrote: Dave's right.

Racer92 wrote: Dave's right.

flarider wrote: NOTHING would've changed the MA incident.
Nothing

Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything.

Starts in racing, all racing, is the most hairball part.
Lot of horsepower, adrenaline, speed, nerves and more mixed together in close quarters, ain't nothing gonna change it.

fcr wrote: I totally agree. The questioning of the incident will help in the future. Look at the Kalitta incident. No one was at fault in this situation from what I can see. It is just a good Idea to look at it critically. JMO

fcr wrote: I totally agree. The questioning of the incident will help in the future. Look at the Kalitta incident. No one was at fault in this situation from what I can see. It is just a good Idea to look at it critically. JMO

Crash82 wrote: Maybe it wouldn't have helped with MA. What about the rider that couldn't get to his bike after crashing on the step down a week or 2 ago? That was dangerous for the riders jumping and the rider that crashed. A radio in the helmet with one channel, they broadcast red flag and riders stop. I would rather get rear ended(no gay jokes please) than land on another rider or bike.

Crash82 wrote: Maybe it wouldn't have helped with MA. What about the rider that couldn't get to his bike after crashing on the step down a week or 2 ago? That was dangerous for the riders jumping and the rider that crashed. A radio in the helmet with one channel, they broadcast red flag and riders stop. I would rather get rear ended(no gay jokes please) than land on another rider or bike.

flarider wrote: NOTHING would've changed the MA incident.
Nothing

Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything.

Starts in racing, all racing, is the most hairball part.
Lot of horsepower, adrenaline, speed, nerves and more mixed together in close quarters, ain't nothing gonna change it.

Crash82 wrote: Nothing would have changed the first hits but I know for a fact red lights or a radio would have stopped the 5th or 6th time he got hit. The red lights would be all the way around the track, like nascar, and those that hit him last would not have been jumping.

Crash82 wrote: Nothing would have changed the first hits but I know for a fact red lights or a radio would have stopped the 5th or 6th time he got hit. The red lights would be all the way around the track, like nascar, and those that hit him last would not have been jumping.

spacerider wrote: go back to the brashaw ,dowd at binghamtom. the flager was flaging and the riders still jump it to a down ride 5 bikes going down .. the racer don't look ..

spacerider wrote: go back to the brashaw ,dowd at binghamtom. the flager was flaging and the riders still jump it to a down ride 5 bikes going down .. the racer don't look ..

flarider wrote: NOTHING would've changed the MA incident.
Nothing

Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything.

Starts in racing, all racing, is the most hairball part.
Lot of horsepower, adrenaline, speed, nerves and more mixed together in close quarters, ain't nothing gonna change it.

Phlapjax wrote: x2

crowe176 wrote: I agree. What and where MA's accident happened would be like telling someone to run out on the track with a flag at Daytona after a driver spins out.

crowe176 wrote: I agree. What and where MA's accident happened would be like telling someone to run out on the track with a flag at Daytona after a driver spins out.

spacerider wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uos4rP4cuTM

spacerider wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uos4rP4cuTM

Slow ~ Pro wrote: ~ Yellow flags mean nothing these days. Rarely does a rider slow at all. Many think it is a time to pass other riders.


Then the problem is with the flaggers. Like FCR says they're not Pros, they get free entrance to the race...The issue I always have is the way the flag guys face.

It should be mandatory for a flagger to face the traffic as it rides away, not looking at oncoming riders. For this reason, when a crash happens the flagger is still watching the race instead of doing the job at hand.

Alway been a problem always will be.

This was a high speed section, little could have been prevented, but if the flags were waving further up the track, then maybe it may not have been so bad.

Slow ~ Pro wrote: ~ Yellow flags mean nothing these days. Rarely does a rider slow at all. Many think it is a time to pass other riders.


Then the problem is with the flaggers. Like FCR says they're not Pros, they get free entrance to the race...The issue I always have is the way the flag guys face.

It should be mandatory for a flagger to face the traffic as it rides away, not looking at oncoming riders. For this reason, when a crash happens the flagger is still watching the race instead of doing the job at hand.

Alway been a problem always will be.

This was a high speed section, little could have been prevented, but if the flags were waving further up the track, then maybe it may not have been so bad.

spacerider wrote: go back to the brashaw ,dowd at binghamtom. the flager was flaging and the riders still jump it to a down ride 5 bikes going down .. the racer don't look ..

teggers wrote: Brian Manley....He said it hurt - alot.

teggers wrote: Brian Manley....He said it hurt - alot.

Phlapjax wrote: x2

crowe176 wrote: I agree. What and where MA's accident happened would be like telling someone to run out on the track with a flag at Daytona after a driver spins out.

Crash82 wrote: So you guys all agree just let the guy get run over until the pack goes thru? That's just stupid man, some of the riders were a turn and a jump back when it happened. Put flaggers before jumps, hold the damn red flag in front of their face or hit them with it if you have to, don't the flaggers have radios? Light the red lights if you have them, send out a message to the riders on a radio. If I see a rider in that spot, i will fly the red flag running up the track before the jump and no one could stop me.

Crash82 wrote: So you guys all agree just let the guy get run over until the pack goes thru? That's just stupid man, some of the riders were a turn and a jump back when it happened. Put flaggers before jumps, hold the damn red flag in front of their face or hit them with it if you have to, don't the flaggers have radios? Light the red lights if you have them, send out a message to the riders on a radio. If I see a rider in that spot, i will fly the red flag running up the track before the jump and no one could stop me.

fcr wrote: In the video it looks like the flaggers could not see down track. It needs to be like a relay system so there is not a blocked view from down the line. If the flagger is looking at an area that drops out of view how could he see if someone goes down?

fcr wrote: In the video it looks like the flaggers could not see down track. It needs to be like a relay system so there is not a blocked view from down the line. If the flagger is looking at an area that drops out of view how could he see if someone goes down?

Crash82 wrote: So you guys all agree just let the guy get run over until the pack goes thru? That's just stupid man, some of the riders were a turn and a jump back when it happened. Put flaggers before jumps, hold the damn red flag in front of their face or hit them with it if you have to, don't the flaggers have radios? Light the red lights if you have them, send out a message to the riders on a radio. If I see a rider in that spot, i will fly the red flag running up the track before the jump and no one could stop me.

flarider wrote: That's not what anyone said.

Go to that video, and time it from when MA hits the ground and the pack passes, it is probably 3 seconds max

Then factor human reaction times, to radio times, then the human reaction time of the 2nd person.

The incident would be long over by that time.

You're dealing with fractions of seconds in an incident like this

flarider wrote: That's not what anyone said.

Go to that video, and time it from when MA hits the ground and the pack passes, it is probably 3 seconds max

Then factor human reaction times, to radio times, then the human reaction time of the 2nd person.

The incident would be long over by that time.

You're dealing with fractions of seconds in an incident like this

croom mx wrote: Flaggers have always been a problem. I`ve seen flaggers too busy watching the crash instead of warning the oncoming riders, then after about 5 of them have run over the downed rider they start waving the flag.

croom mx wrote: Flaggers have always been a problem. I`ve seen flaggers too busy watching the crash instead of warning the oncoming riders, then after about 5 of them have run over the downed rider they start waving the flag.

pushpulldragitin wrote: This is pro racing folks. Train the flagmen, pay them decently for their work and critique them after a event. Probably would not have helped MA early in the crash, but would have helped greatly with the last couple of hits. If you can light up Colorado you can put up some kind of flashing light system at these tracks. We want to see the best racers in the world do their jobs the promoters should step up and make it as safe and professional as it can be. We sometimes want the best TV coverage live events night racing and anything to help us fans out, but without the best racers in the world the event wont be the same. Step up and help these guys out. It isnt to much to ask.

pushpulldragitin wrote: This is pro racing folks. Train the flagmen, pay them decently for their work and critique them after a event. Probably would not have helped MA early in the crash, but would have helped greatly with the last couple of hits. If you can light up Colorado you can put up some kind of flashing light system at these tracks. We want to see the best racers in the world do their jobs the promoters should step up and make it as safe and professional as it can be. We sometimes want the best TV coverage live events night racing and anything to help us fans out, but without the best racers in the world the event wont be the same. Step up and help these guys out. It isnt to much to ask.

fcr wrote: The system is not perfect but can be refined. This incident could not have been prevented. As stated starts are pure adrenaline.

fcr wrote: The system is not perfect but can be refined. This incident could not have been prevented. As stated starts are pure adrenaline.

flarider wrote: Pro MX needs to look at how RR handles corner workers, as well as SCCA and other racing organizations.
MX is very amateur in comparison

flarider wrote: Pro MX needs to look at how RR handles corner workers, as well as SCCA and other racing organizations.
MX is very amateur in comparison

flarider wrote: Pro MX needs to look at how RR handles corner workers, as well as SCCA and other racing organizations.
MX is very amateur in comparison

fcr wrote: There you go. Model after a successful system.

fcr wrote: There you go. Model after a successful system.

lapper wrote: I've flagged 6 Nationals and the MXoN. Tiki is right about Flagger's being local racers. You must be 18 and have racing / flagging experience. There's a training film and a briefing from the AMA. The principals of flagging are really pretty simple and experience is the best training IMHO. The AMA has a few "professional" flaggers that roam the track and assist with hot spots as well. These are the guys in the Blue shirts with headsets. The flagger you see in the Youtube video was an AMA official. I'm sure (hope) there was another flagger up the hill you don't see. If you watch the video, it was less than 5 sec. from when MA went down to when the last rider hit him. The rider had past the flagger at that point, so total reaction time was probably less that 3 seconds. This includes the time for the rider to see the flag and react as well. Flarider is right. NOTHING would've changed the MA incident. Nothing
One of the hardest parts of flagging is keeping focus that you are not there to give aid a downed rider. Your job is to summon the Medical team (Red cross flag) and protect the rider from additional injury. The medical staff will handle the injuries that have already occurred. It's a natural instinct as a racer and human being to want go to a rider who is down. However, leaving your position to a place where you can no longer warn the on-coming riders puts them, you and the downed rider in more risk. When a rider goes down hard, there's always some idiot spectator screaming at you to go help the rider. This usually includes some insults and profanity. I've never done it, but those idiots deserve a nice juicy STFU after the moto. Flagging is like the military...hours of boredom interrupted by moments of chaos!

lapper wrote: I've flagged 6 Nationals and the MXoN. Tiki is right about Flagger's being local racers. You must be 18 and have racing / flagging experience. There's a training film and a briefing from the AMA. The principals of flagging are really pretty simple and experience is the best training IMHO. The AMA has a few "professional" flaggers that roam the track and assist with hot spots as well. These are the guys in the Blue shirts with headsets. The flagger you see in the Youtube video was an AMA official. I'm sure (hope) there was another flagger up the hill you don't see. If you watch the video, it was less than 5 sec. from when MA went down to when the last rider hit him. The rider had past the flagger at that point, so total reaction time was probably less that 3 seconds. This includes the time for the rider to see the flag and react as well. Flarider is right. NOTHING would've changed the MA incident. Nothing
One of the hardest parts of flagging is keeping focus that you are not there to give aid a downed rider. Your job is to summon the Medical team (Red cross flag) and protect the rider from additional injury. The medical staff will handle the injuries that have already occurred. It's a natural instinct as a racer and human being to want go to a rider who is down. However, leaving your position to a place where you can no longer warn the on-coming riders puts them, you and the downed rider in more risk. When a rider goes down hard, there's always some idiot spectator screaming at you to go help the rider. This usually includes some insults and profanity. I've never done it, but those idiots deserve a nice juicy STFU after the moto. Flagging is like the military...hours of boredom interrupted by moments of chaos!