The future of Factory Editions

Edited Date/Time 3/19/2015 7:28pm
With the success and hoopla of KTMs factory editions and the current success and potential of Honda and its riders will Honda jump on the bandwagon and release an early premium edition like KTM?

Yamaha offered two models many moons ago and the potential Honda has going this year has to have at.least somewhat rekindled their interest in getting back to the top of the motocross game.

Will Kawasaki and Suzuki take the bait as well to keep up?

Will KTM even take it a step further and come out with a factory edition two stroke to appease their large following those who prefer two strokes?

The prices are getting nutsy but the renewed interest and designs are cool to see.
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Crush
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3/17/2015 6:17am
You're dealing with pretty different supply chain and manufacturing line sizes to chop and change cycles comparing Austria and Japan. Ktm has competed on flexibility and meeting customer demand for niche markets of off-road and slowly slowly taken the fight up in the main arena... I really don't think Japan is going to drop everything and go after those segments...
Mr Bean
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3/17/2015 6:31am
Crush wrote:
You're dealing with pretty different supply chain and manufacturing line sizes to chop and change cycles comparing Austria and Japan. Ktm has competed on flexibility and...
You're dealing with pretty different supply chain and manufacturing line sizes to chop and change cycles comparing Austria and Japan. Ktm has competed on flexibility and meeting customer demand for niche markets of off-road and slowly slowly taken the fight up in the main arena... I really don't think Japan is going to drop everything and go after those segments...
Agreed.

I'm not a brand loyalist but what KTM has done by marketing to the niches (for decades) is create a customer base they can cultivate and keep on KTMs in the future. Sort of Like Kawi with their Team Green program - supporting them when they are on mins and hoping they'll stay green when they move up. It also gave them sales when they needed them to stay afloat. Sort of liking working odd jobs until you finish school and can focus on a career.

Combine that with a more flexible/aggressive manufacturing approach and they look like Curly Neal running rings around the heavy-footed, lumbering Japanese brands.

Then go hire RD, who has repeatedly proven he knows what it takes to build the best teams and bikes, give him a blank check and what do you get?

Well, the results speak for themselves.

We can only hope the competition benefits the consumer and doesn't cause some of the manufacturers to fold their tents.
3/17/2015 6:41am Edited Date/Time 3/17/2015 6:41am
Crush wrote:
You're dealing with pretty different supply chain and manufacturing line sizes to chop and change cycles comparing Austria and Japan. Ktm has competed on flexibility and...
You're dealing with pretty different supply chain and manufacturing line sizes to chop and change cycles comparing Austria and Japan. Ktm has competed on flexibility and meeting customer demand for niche markets of off-road and slowly slowly taken the fight up in the main arena... I really don't think Japan is going to drop everything and go after those segments...
Honda's interest in motorcycle racing (especially mx/sx) just doesn't seem to be anywhere close to what it used to be.

They have some serious talent right now and are getting some good results but in the past wouldn't
have settled for that. It's good to see them get the results again, just hoped it would spark the hyper competitive spirit that they had in the past to totally blow away the competition.

Sure they had several of the best riders on their squad back then, but they also had an overwhelming financial backing and research and development operations, both in house and contracted.

The Shop

Mr Bean
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3/17/2015 6:46am
Honda's interest in motorcycle racing (especially mx/sx) just doesn't seem to be anywhere close to what it used to be. They have some serious talent right...
Honda's interest in motorcycle racing (especially mx/sx) just doesn't seem to be anywhere close to what it used to be.

They have some serious talent right now and are getting some good results but in the past wouldn't
have settled for that. It's good to see them get the results again, just hoped it would spark the hyper competitive spirit that they had in the past to totally blow away the competition.

Sure they had several of the best riders on their squad back then, but they also had an overwhelming financial backing and research and development operations, both in house and contracted.
Yep, The Big Red Machine used to roll heavily.

It's like they said, "Been there, done that... what else can we do?"

Nowadays they seem be content to produce masterpieces like the DN-01 (Do Not Own 1).

Sad.
3/17/2015 6:48am
Crush wrote:
You're dealing with pretty different supply chain and manufacturing line sizes to chop and change cycles comparing Austria and Japan. Ktm has competed on flexibility and...
You're dealing with pretty different supply chain and manufacturing line sizes to chop and change cycles comparing Austria and Japan. Ktm has competed on flexibility and meeting customer demand for niche markets of off-road and slowly slowly taken the fight up in the main arena... I really don't think Japan is going to drop everything and go after those segments...
Mr Bean wrote:
Agreed. I'm not a brand loyalist but what KTM has done by marketing to the niches (for decades) is create a customer base they can cultivate...
Agreed.

I'm not a brand loyalist but what KTM has done by marketing to the niches (for decades) is create a customer base they can cultivate and keep on KTMs in the future. Sort of Like Kawi with their Team Green program - supporting them when they are on mins and hoping they'll stay green when they move up. It also gave them sales when they needed them to stay afloat. Sort of liking working odd jobs until you finish school and can focus on a career.

Combine that with a more flexible/aggressive manufacturing approach and they look like Curly Neal running rings around the heavy-footed, lumbering Japanese brands.

Then go hire RD, who has repeatedly proven he knows what it takes to build the best teams and bikes, give him a blank check and what do you get?

Well, the results speak for themselves.

We can only hope the competition benefits the consumer and doesn't cause some of the manufacturers to fold their tents.
Great response, love the analogies.

Yeah the Team Green deal was a cool program and worked well right up until Honda started throwing their big budget at rider salaries and picking up the best riders.
yak651
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3/17/2015 6:50am
Snocross kinda has that model. To get the "race" sled you need to fill out an application and then you get the yea/nea of getting the race sled. The consumers get the "race replica" sleds that they can purchase. The good thing about this program is that if you get accepted in you get to buy the race models at a discount, if you don't wreck it too bad during the year you can sell it to those not accepted in the race program for a price close to what you paid for it. The bad thing is if you don't get accepted then you SOL...
Berm
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3/17/2015 7:11am
Look at the direction yamaha has gone. They have streamlined their production by making most things interchangeable. Even the new frames are the same with different motor mounts. I don't see them offering up anything that would go in the opposite direction.
YZ125H1
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3/17/2015 7:34am Edited Date/Time 3/17/2015 7:59am
yak651 wrote:
Snocross kinda has that model. To get the "race" sled you need to fill out an application and then you get the yea/nea of getting the...
Snocross kinda has that model. To get the "race" sled you need to fill out an application and then you get the yea/nea of getting the race sled. The consumers get the "race replica" sleds that they can purchase. The good thing about this program is that if you get accepted in you get to buy the race models at a discount, if you don't wreck it too bad during the year you can sell it to those not accepted in the race program for a price close to what you paid for it. The bad thing is if you don't get accepted then you SOL...
The aggressive sled market such as the XRS and RR models have really caught on now. You can have a well suspended fast sled without all the hassle that comes with a snocross sled (race gas, premix, small gas tank, loud, very stiff suspension).

I do not really see the Japanese manufacturers getting involved in factory edition bikes. It is not like the KTM FE's have that many parts setting them far apart from the 2015 KTM's. I mainly see the KTM FE's as a spring order snowmobile package. You are basically getting a special edition next year model early with some extra bling. I really think the factory edition bikes should come with a better suspension and a better looking exhaust. I realize this years FE is a huge difference compared to other years since it is a new model.

One thing that is interesting is the new sport bikes from Kawasaki and Yamaha. I'm actually surprised they even made them.
mx836
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3/17/2015 8:13am
I hope the other manufacturers don't follow suit. Last thing we need is everyone releasing their next years bike early with some unnecessary fluff parts and charging and arm and leg for them.
moto0852
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3/17/2015 8:22am
mx836 wrote:
I hope the other manufacturers don't follow suit. Last thing we need is everyone releasing their next years bike early with some unnecessary fluff parts and...
I hope the other manufacturers don't follow suit. Last thing we need is everyone releasing their next years bike early with some unnecessary fluff parts and charging and arm and leg for them.
Exactly.. who would want to get an early release bike with a better engine, more power, lighter weight and better handling. We don't need your stinkin fluff parts!
peelout
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3/17/2015 8:23am Edited Date/Time 3/17/2015 8:25am
in my opinion if the mfr's are going to offer a factory edition of a bike (newest and greatest parts/accessories) then they also need to start offering a budget start-up model. i know KTM is the only one even offering different flavors for the most part, but it'd be cool to see them get back to the weekend-warrior non local A class market. there's no reason for a beginner to have to spend $9k on a new bike...
3/17/2015 8:50am
peelout wrote:
in my opinion if the mfr's are going to offer a factory edition of a bike (newest and greatest parts/accessories) then they also need to start...
in my opinion if the mfr's are going to offer a factory edition of a bike (newest and greatest parts/accessories) then they also need to start offering a budget start-up model. i know KTM is the only one even offering different flavors for the most part, but it'd be cool to see them get back to the weekend-warrior non local A class market. there's no reason for a beginner to have to spend $9k on a new bike...
Yep, like I said Yamaha used to offer two different levels of motocross specific bikes.

The bold new graphics cheaper version and a full on best we got premium model for the more serious enthusiast. Don't know if that would work today, but it might help to get more interest back in the sport.

It just seems that the other manufacturers are missing the boat while KTM continues to take advantage of the rules year after year and it doesn't look like it's going to stop anytime soon.
IWreckALot
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3/17/2015 8:52am
peelout wrote:
in my opinion if the mfr's are going to offer a factory edition of a bike (newest and greatest parts/accessories) then they also need to start...
in my opinion if the mfr's are going to offer a factory edition of a bike (newest and greatest parts/accessories) then they also need to start offering a budget start-up model. i know KTM is the only one even offering different flavors for the most part, but it'd be cool to see them get back to the weekend-warrior non local A class market. there's no reason for a beginner to have to spend $9k on a new bike...
I agree the price point is really high on a new bike. But even if the entry level bike were $6,000, I'd argue that even that is too big of an investment for an entrant to the sport. This is probably a lot of personal preference but I believe a used bike is the way to go for a beginner. Buy a $2,500 or $3,000 bike.

Out of curiosity, what would you, or anyone else suggest that they trim off the bikes to make them cheaper? The manufacturers aren't going to just give up their margin to make the bikes cheaper, so that means they're going to have to trim something somewhere. Agreed that 2 strokes are cheaper all around, but they're not for everyone. I'd say they're more dangerous to learn on and require a more dedicated riding style. And for the increased reliability, I understand the price increase over the years.

I'm not trying to argue for arguments sake, but I don't know where a price reduction could be feasible.
3/17/2015 8:54am
Berm wrote:
Look at the direction yamaha has gone. They have streamlined their production by making most things interchangeable. Even the new frames are the same with different...
Look at the direction yamaha has gone. They have streamlined their production by making most things interchangeable. Even the new frames are the same with different motor mounts. I don't see them offering up anything that would go in the opposite direction.
There's nothing wrong with using interchangeable parts, KTM does it as well and you could offer different quality engines, wheels, suspension, brakes, etc.
Berm
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3/17/2015 9:01am
Berm wrote:
Look at the direction yamaha has gone. They have streamlined their production by making most things interchangeable. Even the new frames are the same with different...
Look at the direction yamaha has gone. They have streamlined their production by making most things interchangeable. Even the new frames are the same with different motor mounts. I don't see them offering up anything that would go in the opposite direction.
There's nothing wrong with using interchangeable parts, KTM does it as well and you could offer different quality engines, wheels, suspension, brakes, etc.
Oh I don't think there is anything wrong with it. In fact, I'm very surprised Yamaha isn't taking the same ideas and applying it to their sleds (all sled types based off of one chassis like Ski-doo). I was just pointing out that they have taken great lengths to make the bikes the same, that it doesn't seem to me they'd be interested in offering two different packages of the two bikes.
Flatliner
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3/17/2015 9:28am
peelout wrote:
in my opinion if the mfr's are going to offer a factory edition of a bike (newest and greatest parts/accessories) then they also need to start...
in my opinion if the mfr's are going to offer a factory edition of a bike (newest and greatest parts/accessories) then they also need to start offering a budget start-up model. i know KTM is the only one even offering different flavors for the most part, but it'd be cool to see them get back to the weekend-warrior non local A class market. there's no reason for a beginner to have to spend $9k on a new bike...
Does a beginner even need a new bike?
yak651
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3/17/2015 9:37am
peelout wrote:
in my opinion if the mfr's are going to offer a factory edition of a bike (newest and greatest parts/accessories) then they also need to start...
in my opinion if the mfr's are going to offer a factory edition of a bike (newest and greatest parts/accessories) then they also need to start offering a budget start-up model. i know KTM is the only one even offering different flavors for the most part, but it'd be cool to see them get back to the weekend-warrior non local A class market. there's no reason for a beginner to have to spend $9k on a new bike...
Flatliner wrote:
Does a beginner even need a new bike?
No, but sucks when a beginner buys a ragged out used bike because they don't know any better and then it blows after 2-3 rides. If there was an entry level bike that could still be raced/taken to the track but at a $4500 price point it may help the sport.
TailSoHard
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3/17/2015 9:51am
Berm wrote:
Oh I don't think there is anything wrong with it. In fact, I'm very surprised Yamaha isn't taking the same ideas and applying it to their...
Oh I don't think there is anything wrong with it. In fact, I'm very surprised Yamaha isn't taking the same ideas and applying it to their sleds (all sled types based off of one chassis like Ski-doo). I was just pointing out that they have taken great lengths to make the bikes the same, that it doesn't seem to me they'd be interested in offering two different packages of the two bikes.
I sell all 4 brands of sleds at my shop and I've wondered the same thing. I sell 5 Ski-Doos for every Yamaha sold, and it's because you can get a Rev-XS chassis for under $10,000, whereas you can't really get the same value in the Yamaha lineup. Rep tells me this is an off year for them because the last two have had a couple big releases in their lineup. Still waiting on that Apex to come out in the Cat chassis...
731chopper
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3/17/2015 9:54am
IWreckALot wrote:
I agree the price point is really high on a new bike. But even if the entry level bike were $6,000, I'd argue that even that...
I agree the price point is really high on a new bike. But even if the entry level bike were $6,000, I'd argue that even that is too big of an investment for an entrant to the sport. This is probably a lot of personal preference but I believe a used bike is the way to go for a beginner. Buy a $2,500 or $3,000 bike.

Out of curiosity, what would you, or anyone else suggest that they trim off the bikes to make them cheaper? The manufacturers aren't going to just give up their margin to make the bikes cheaper, so that means they're going to have to trim something somewhere. Agreed that 2 strokes are cheaper all around, but they're not for everyone. I'd say they're more dangerous to learn on and require a more dedicated riding style. And for the increased reliability, I understand the price increase over the years.

I'm not trying to argue for arguments sake, but I don't know where a price reduction could be feasible.
You hit the nail on the head. New cars are expensive too so most people buy a used one and the same can be said for motorcycles whether it's on or off road. I do think making a less expensive bike would be good for the sport but the only way you could do a proper feasibility analysis would be to look at how much each individual part cost vs alternatives. Even if they could make an A version for $7,200 and a B version for $6,000, how much would that just cannibalize their own sales?

It's probably confusing to the manufacturers that we (collectively) say that new bikes are getting too expensive and then we seem to jump all over this Factory Edition idea KTM has come up with. I've ridden a new Factory Edition 250 and it is an awesome bike but isn't the hype right now just because it is a totally new bike? Will the 2016 Factory Edition get the same amount of buzz when the regular production bike is already out? Probably not.
TailSoHard
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3/17/2015 10:04am
yak651 wrote:
Snocross kinda has that model. To get the "race" sled you need to fill out an application and then you get the yea/nea of getting the...
Snocross kinda has that model. To get the "race" sled you need to fill out an application and then you get the yea/nea of getting the race sled. The consumers get the "race replica" sleds that they can purchase. The good thing about this program is that if you get accepted in you get to buy the race models at a discount, if you don't wreck it too bad during the year you can sell it to those not accepted in the race program for a price close to what you paid for it. The bad thing is if you don't get accepted then you SOL...
YZ125H1 wrote:
The aggressive sled market such as the XRS and RR models have really caught on now. You can have a well suspended fast sled without all...
The aggressive sled market such as the XRS and RR models have really caught on now. You can have a well suspended fast sled without all the hassle that comes with a snocross sled (race gas, premix, small gas tank, loud, very stiff suspension).

I do not really see the Japanese manufacturers getting involved in factory edition bikes. It is not like the KTM FE's have that many parts setting them far apart from the 2015 KTM's. I mainly see the KTM FE's as a spring order snowmobile package. You are basically getting a special edition next year model early with some extra bling. I really think the factory edition bikes should come with a better suspension and a better looking exhaust. I realize this years FE is a huge difference compared to other years since it is a new model.

One thing that is interesting is the new sport bikes from Kawasaki and Yamaha. I'm actually surprised they even made them.
I like the fact that you can choose from so many different models of sleds these days, but it's almost too much anymore. Ski-Doo literally offers 200 different snowmobiles, depending on what chassis, track, engine, trim, and color you want. It's ridiculous. Especially during the pre-order programs in the spring. You can't call a dealer anymore and just say "what's a renegade XRS 800 ETEC cost?" anoymore, because they make 8 different Renegade XRS 800 ETEC's!!!

Be careful what you wish for guys, too many options can be a bad thing.
peelout
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3/17/2015 10:15am
TailSoHard wrote:
I like the fact that you can choose from so many different models of sleds these days, but it's almost too much anymore. Ski-Doo literally offers...
I like the fact that you can choose from so many different models of sleds these days, but it's almost too much anymore. Ski-Doo literally offers 200 different snowmobiles, depending on what chassis, track, engine, trim, and color you want. It's ridiculous. Especially during the pre-order programs in the spring. You can't call a dealer anymore and just say "what's a renegade XRS 800 ETEC cost?" anoymore, because they make 8 different Renegade XRS 800 ETEC's!!!

Be careful what you wish for guys, too many options can be a bad thing.
that is a great point, there are a shit-ton of sled models, options, accessories, tracks, etc... not sure i want to see that happen.

i still would like to see a basic model bike get released that could be somewhat competitive but without all the bells and whistles (EFI, Air-forks, etc) that a beginning rider isn't going to need. i agree with a poster above, i think a $4500 model would be pretty rad and popular.
IWreckALot
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3/17/2015 10:18am
731chopper wrote:
You hit the nail on the head. New cars are expensive too so most people buy a used one and the same can be said for...
You hit the nail on the head. New cars are expensive too so most people buy a used one and the same can be said for motorcycles whether it's on or off road. I do think making a less expensive bike would be good for the sport but the only way you could do a proper feasibility analysis would be to look at how much each individual part cost vs alternatives. Even if they could make an A version for $7,200 and a B version for $6,000, how much would that just cannibalize their own sales?

It's probably confusing to the manufacturers that we (collectively) say that new bikes are getting too expensive and then we seem to jump all over this Factory Edition idea KTM has come up with. I've ridden a new Factory Edition 250 and it is an awesome bike but isn't the hype right now just because it is a totally new bike? Will the 2016 Factory Edition get the same amount of buzz when the regular production bike is already out? Probably not.
For the KTM deal, I think the buzz is more around the bikes themselves but I haven't seen many "spoke with my wallet" posts about actually buying one. So the price seems to box many people out.

I guess what I can't get my head around is what part of the bike would I want any less performance from. I certainly wouldn't jeopardize the suspension or power. Each of the components are about the minimum that I expect to hold up in race or even casual riding conditions.

I'd be alright with a fuel Injection model and a carb model and an air fork/shock and spring fork/shock option. Another option I'd like to see is to buy the bike without any tires, handle bars, or chain and sprockets. And selling a bike with only one spring option is not logical. Most guys that buy new bikes aren't 150 pounds or whatever they're sprung for. All of those things are already cheap on the bikes and most riders change them to their own preference anyways.

Having said that, I don't know that shaving all of that stuff would drop the price by more than maybe $500 and you'd have to spend that $500 just to put those components on. And getting the bike from the dealer to the house without springs and wheels would be interesting. But at least I'd feel better about buying a new bike and not feeling obligated to spend another arm and leg to get it the way I want it.
Mr Bean
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3/17/2015 10:29am
I think you'll see the entry level models fall to manufacturers in India, Korea, etc. if the Big 5 don't market to it soon. There's a void to be filled in that area for sure.

And those that laugh at that need to see what is already coming out of those countries and the pricing on them. Anyone old enough to remember when "Made in Taiwan" was synonymous with "junk"? How things change...

High quality and good performance at a price that cuts the legs off the competition; that's a recipe for big sales numbers.

Bear in mind, I'm not talking high-end race models but entry and mid-level performance machines.
Randy Savage
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3/17/2015 10:38am
Mr Bean wrote:
I think you'll see the entry level models fall to manufacturers in India, Korea, etc. if the Big 5 don't market to it soon. There's a...
I think you'll see the entry level models fall to manufacturers in India, Korea, etc. if the Big 5 don't market to it soon. There's a void to be filled in that area for sure.

And those that laugh at that need to see what is already coming out of those countries and the pricing on them. Anyone old enough to remember when "Made in Taiwan" was synonymous with "junk"? How things change...

High quality and good performance at a price that cuts the legs off the competition; that's a recipe for big sales numbers.

Bear in mind, I'm not talking high-end race models but entry and mid-level performance machines.
It's going to be Korea, and it's going to be a Hyosung, and they will have a cult following after a few years. It's coming. The only question is, which Japanese OEM will sell them the tooling?
Suns_PSD
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3/17/2015 10:50am Edited Date/Time 3/17/2015 10:51am
Buying a 3 year old CRF450 barely ridden for $4500 is a much better value than either a stripped down decade old technology Jap bike or a newly made China/ Tiawan bike.

They already sell simple trail bikes for $2-3K less. There is no market to sell downscale MX bikes.

Realize that the cost to manufacturer, the cost to ship, OEM profit, the dealer profit is all essentially the same. The actual manufacturing cost for a modern dirt bike is less than $2.5K for sure not counting development and promotion. How much do you really suspect that they could trim out of that $2.5K manufacturing cost without giving you a complete pile of crap?
Mr Bean
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3/17/2015 11:07am
Buying a used bike (especially a used race thumper) always involves risk, and the used market is 100% dependent on new bike sales and it will always have a smaller supply of bikes than the number of new ones sold.

But we're talking entry level. A quality, affordable new unit that is available to the consumer makes more sense to me when it comes to supplying the market. A lot of people looking at the entry level can't handle a race bike, new or used.
mx836
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3/17/2015 11:10am Edited Date/Time 3/17/2015 11:11am
mx836 wrote:
I hope the other manufacturers don't follow suit. Last thing we need is everyone releasing their next years bike early with some unnecessary fluff parts and...
I hope the other manufacturers don't follow suit. Last thing we need is everyone releasing their next years bike early with some unnecessary fluff parts and charging and arm and leg for them.
moto0852 wrote:
Exactly.. who would want to get an early release bike with a better engine, more power, lighter weight and better handling. We don't need your stinkin...
Exactly.. who would want to get an early release bike with a better engine, more power, lighter weight and better handling. We don't need your stinkin fluff parts!
Clearly you missed my point. How about we just wait another half a year and don't inflate the prices of bikes further than they already have? Nice job with the sarcasm though.

Edit: orrrr, how about everybody just releases their bikes a half yearr earlier and we don't charge another 2 g for fluff parts.
Randy Savage
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3/17/2015 11:19am
Japan is so incredibly asleep at the wheel I want them all to die so something better and innovative can rise from the ashes. They've hindered bike development and pro racing for far too long with their overly shrewd, non-capitalist, stubborn, proud business practices.

I wish people would stop putting them on a pedestal. They came in and laid their ground work in this market when the yen rate was ultra-low and they were still rebuilding after the war. Since the yen rate achieved parity in the late 80s, they've just been fucking with us and selling us junk.

KTM has caught and passed them, and I can't wait to see how far off into the lead they go with bike development.

Cable clutches, kickstarters, cookie cutter aluminum twinspars, open needle bearings on the lowest part of the bike..now they are selling you junk forks with less parts inside of them to cut down on their bottom line. oh hey, congrats on going EFI in friggin 2010, though.

Wake up, Japan is a joke.
BD233
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3/17/2015 11:29am
Factory Editions are lame, expensive and who wants to ride the same EXACT bike as 60 other people....buy a bike and customize it the way YOU want it....KTM is just milking the sheeple with fluff. I did see 2 350's at the local track last weekend. That's more than usual.... oh and a KTM with a light on the front...sweeeet. Silly The ratio was still 98% Japanese. KTM is still at the bottom of the hill looking up.

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