The former big four disappoint me.

Drtbykr
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7/18/2012 7:00pm Edited Date/Time 7/20/2012 9:41am
Only Kawasaki is representing in Canada well besides KTM. And the big 4 don't have many factory seats in the US.

They should be like KTM, the little factory that could, or even Ducati. Give the buyers choice and cool product, and get off their pile of old money and old thinking!

Off-road, good luck finding a 450 Kawasaki or Suzuki, the CRF X hasn't changed in years except a steering damper. Only the WR has been spruced up, but...no plate. A WR250 with a plate weighs 280 lbs, my 525 weighs 260 lb's. I guess Honda does have a 250 based on the CRF, but 250cc's is not enough for the street.

Their sales are down mainly because their business model sucks. The Europeans are coming along pretty well, it's the early 70's again.

It is a good thing for the big 4 the Chinese bikes stink for now, or the Japanese would be done.

I read that Suzuki cars with probably not exist nexy year, I don't know how that affects bikes.
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JustMX
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7/18/2012 9:16pm
gee whiz
stillwelding
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7/18/2012 9:41pm
Drtbykr wrote:
Only Kawasaki is representing in Canada well besides KTM. And the big 4 don't have many factory seats in the US. They should be like KTM...
Only Kawasaki is representing in Canada well besides KTM. And the big 4 don't have many factory seats in the US.

They should be like KTM, the little factory that could, or even Ducati. Give the buyers choice and cool product, and get off their pile of old money and old thinking!

Off-road, good luck finding a 450 Kawasaki or Suzuki, the CRF X hasn't changed in years except a steering damper. Only the WR has been spruced up, but...no plate. A WR250 with a plate weighs 280 lbs, my 525 weighs 260 lb's. I guess Honda does have a 250 based on the CRF, but 250cc's is not enough for the street.

Their sales are down mainly because their business model sucks. The Europeans are coming along pretty well, it's the early 70's again.

It is a good thing for the big 4 the Chinese bikes stink for now, or the Japanese would be done.

I read that Suzuki cars with probably not exist nexy year, I don't know how that affects bikes.
It's really the high value of the Yen, not a poor business model. Do a little research.
jeffro503
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7/18/2012 9:53pm
That was one hell of a rant.

The Shop

Drtbykr
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7/19/2012 3:39pm Edited Date/Time 7/19/2012 3:39pm
Yen, yawn. It has to do with commitment and the mission statement of the company. Big four, make $, accountants rule.
KTM and the other smaller companies, mostly European, are trying to make off-road bikes for the masses.
I'll give Yamaha credit for their new WR450.
They are a bit expensive, but a deal is only a good deal if you get something you really like.
A few thousand MX bikes are the "supermodels" for the off-road, the masses want something different.
Can you do a 110 foot triple....I thought so (me neither, maybe once)? Yamaha's off-road foundation was built on the DT1.

If Ducati can go MotoGP racing$$$$$$$$$, the Japanese can build some good off-road stuff.
Here is a picture from good old Atlantic Canada, not a sponsored rider in the mix.
Lots of sweet bikes, most with plates from the dealer. Notice anything?



BR_HERO
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7/19/2012 3:50pm
"Give the buyers choice and cool product, and get off their pile of old money and old thinking!"

Same can be said for the buyers also.
peelout
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7/19/2012 3:56pm
KTM is the wave of the future. my next bike will be a KTM and i'll likely continue on that trend.

only brand i see that seems to give two shits about what the consumer wants rather than forcing what they "think" we want down our throats.
prozach
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7/19/2012 5:23pm
peelout wrote:
KTM is the wave of the future. my next bike will be a KTM and i'll likely continue on that trend. only brand i see that...
KTM is the wave of the future. my next bike will be a KTM and i'll likely continue on that trend.

only brand i see that seems to give two shits about what the consumer wants rather than forcing what they "think" we want down our throats.
This is a dumb ass post. How are they forcing anything down anyone's throat? They aren't forcing anyone to buy a bike, and there are plenty of options. They are a corporation that is in businesses to make money. They produce what makes them profits and represents their name well enough to secure future business. They produce what we buy and most of us love and enjoy riding our four strokes. End of story. If you are part of the minority who for some reason can't have fun on these insanely good bikes the Japanese offer then by all means you have the option of buying something else that fits your niche.

I, like most other motocrossers want the best working and most reliable bike on the track. I fail to see how the Japanese are not meeting those demands.
Ing
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7/19/2012 6:20pm
peelout wrote:
KTM is the wave of the future. my next bike will be a KTM and i'll likely continue on that trend. only brand i see that...
KTM is the wave of the future. my next bike will be a KTM and i'll likely continue on that trend.

only brand i see that seems to give two shits about what the consumer wants rather than forcing what they "think" we want down our throats.
Longtime KTM owner. I see more in my future. Road bike will be next.
bigborefan
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7/19/2012 6:43pm
The big four may be viable in MX, but their offerings suck in offroad/dual sport/adventure riding. And those areas are a growing market if I believe what I read.
stillwelding
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7/19/2012 8:12pm
Drtbykr wrote:
Yen, yawn. It has to do with commitment and the mission statement of the company. Big four, make $, accountants rule. KTM and the other smaller...
Yen, yawn. It has to do with commitment and the mission statement of the company. Big four, make $, accountants rule.
KTM and the other smaller companies, mostly European, are trying to make off-road bikes for the masses.
I'll give Yamaha credit for their new WR450.
They are a bit expensive, but a deal is only a good deal if you get something you really like.
A few thousand MX bikes are the "supermodels" for the off-road, the masses want something different.
Can you do a 110 foot triple....I thought so (me neither, maybe once)? Yamaha's off-road foundation was built on the DT1.

If Ducati can go MotoGP racing$$$$$$$$$, the Japanese can build some good off-road stuff.
Here is a picture from good old Atlantic Canada, not a sponsored rider in the mix.
Lots of sweet bikes, most with plates from the dealer. Notice anything?



Yen, Yawn. Mission Statement and commitment. I'll I've seen the last few years is KTM selling 50% of the company to India and Ducati being sold to Audi. I think the Japanese firms are more core.
scott_nz
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7/19/2012 8:37pm
bigborefan wrote:
The big four may be viable in MX, but their offerings suck in offroad/dual sport/adventure riding. And those areas are a growing market if I believe...
The big four may be viable in MX, but their offerings suck in offroad/dual sport/adventure riding. And those areas are a growing market if I believe what I read.
off road is still down (includes MX), dual sport is up but still a very small part of the market,

http://blog.motorcycle.com/2012/04/24/industry-news/us-motorcycle-sales…
iudi2006
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7/19/2012 9:54pm
prozach wrote:
This is a dumb ass post. How are they forcing anything down anyone's throat? They aren't forcing anyone to buy a bike, and there are plenty...
This is a dumb ass post. How are they forcing anything down anyone's throat? They aren't forcing anyone to buy a bike, and there are plenty of options. They are a corporation that is in businesses to make money. They produce what makes them profits and represents their name well enough to secure future business. They produce what we buy and most of us love and enjoy riding our four strokes. End of story. If you are part of the minority who for some reason can't have fun on these insanely good bikes the Japanese offer then by all means you have the option of buying something else that fits your niche.

I, like most other motocrossers want the best working and most reliable bike on the track. I fail to see how the Japanese are not meeting those demands.
Best post i've read on vital.
7/19/2012 11:36pm
Seems the good old days are gone.

Bike sales are down so the commitment from the big four factories reduces too.

MX Pro racing and bike development budgets go down accordingly.

No point in spending millions on running a pro team if the bikes sold do not warrant it. Looks like the new 'Team' structure will be private teams with 'Factory' support as per the Euros.

As KTMs core business is off road it makes sense to run their own teams and also means their bike development is so fast.

Look how quick they built the Dungey bike. Insane
ga_pike
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7/20/2012 4:04am
Are you equally upset with CZ, BSA, Puch, Can-Am, Hodaka, Bultaco, Cooper, Husqvarna, Cagiva... shall I go on? I mean, they went through a similar situation in the late 70's to mid 80's.

Not to mention, this has been coming for quite some time. If you really want to get upset with someone for the "step back" of the big 4 factorys, then you need to get mad at Jeff Glass (Surf Honda), TUF Racing, Mitch Peyton/Pro Circuit, Honda of Troy... I mean these were the teams who stepped up and challenged the factory teams just enough that they were able to gather factory support and start the NASCAR like team style (for lack of a better explination). Maybe Jeremy McGrath is really to blame with his whole, "do my own thing" deal.

This is a move in the right direction and the sport will conmtinue to grow because of it. It is possible that in another 10 or 15 years, we may not see Japanese bikes in the US racing world. Highly doubtful, but entirelly possible. Who will replace them? KTM has stepped up already. What about a return for Husqvarna with a push from BMW? TM could become a contender eventually. Anything is possible.

Our sport will continue to grow and evolve. I think witnessing the change is something we should sit back and enjoy. I remember thinking the move away from box vans was terrible. Now I think it was not only the right move, but a better overall move for our sport.
newmann
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7/20/2012 6:14am
Dumb post? Not so sure about that. There was a time not so long ago that the so called "big four" took a serious stab at getting people involved in mx and they didn't do it at the absolute top level of the sport. Yamaha had a full line of MX bikes when the YZ line came out and they sold an absolute shit ton of them. These bikes were off road and mx worthy while the YZ's were full blown racers. There are so few choices from the mfgs. today and Yamaha keeping the 2 stroke YZ's around is the closest thing to the MX/YZ days as it gets from the "big four". The other mfgs should offer a lower end bike aimed towards the entry level motocrosser in an effort to get some more people into the sport.

Not everybody needs or wants the exact same bike that Chad Reed bought from the local Honda dealer and went racing on at the absolute top level of the sport in the world.

I'm sure someone will be along to say that it would cost too much for the Japanese lines to offer such a bike but that is complete b/s. They could do it in a heartbeat with little effort. Everything already exists
BESTY #72
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7/20/2012 6:57am
The big four are going down..

KTM's rising.

Ironic that KTM have the biggest range of bikes, constantly reinvent and develop their product and most importantly apply to their full line up, including 2 strokes!

Do the 'big four' not scratch their cost efficient brains and think about it? They're actually all so stupid when it comes down to all this..
JustMX
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7/20/2012 7:40am
newmann wrote:
Dumb post? Not so sure about that. There was a time not so long ago that the so called "big four" took a serious stab at...
Dumb post? Not so sure about that. There was a time not so long ago that the so called "big four" took a serious stab at getting people involved in mx and they didn't do it at the absolute top level of the sport. Yamaha had a full line of MX bikes when the YZ line came out and they sold an absolute shit ton of them. These bikes were off road and mx worthy while the YZ's were full blown racers. There are so few choices from the mfgs. today and Yamaha keeping the 2 stroke YZ's around is the closest thing to the MX/YZ days as it gets from the "big four". The other mfgs should offer a lower end bike aimed towards the entry level motocrosser in an effort to get some more people into the sport.

Not everybody needs or wants the exact same bike that Chad Reed bought from the local Honda dealer and went racing on at the absolute top level of the sport in the world.

I'm sure someone will be along to say that it would cost too much for the Japanese lines to offer such a bike but that is complete b/s. They could do it in a heartbeat with little effort. Everything already exists
A very good point.

Our sport has just gone a little nuts.

What are the options for an entry level rider?

A 125 two stroke? What are your options for racing it at a Beginner level? 250D class where you will get smoked off the start? a 125 "Amateur" class where you race against every hot shoe schoolboy rider looking for more track time on their 125?

a 250F that makes very good tractible power. The result is that beginner riders are able to try obstacles that they have absolutely no business trying.

a 450F? Really? Is this a good choice for a 14 year old kid when magical thinking is the only thinking going on?

Even the 50cc classes have just gotten nuts. 4-6 year olds racing bikes that make about 11 hp. Yeah, nothing can go wrong with that.

Our sport desparately needs some affordable, simple, easy to maintain option that is not so technoligically evolved that it is much more machine than an entry level rider should be riding.

As far as the OP's post.

The off road market is such a tiny portion of the business most of these companies do that the most amazing thing about the whole industry is that they mess with it at all.

The fact that KTM is increasing market share is not something to get terribly excited about.

When the economy turns around, and if and when the number of units sold start to turn around and look anything like the numbers that there were in the mid 70's (when numbers actually peaked) then the "Big Four" may chose to play a much more active roll if it does make more sense from a business standpoint.

Realistically, I wouldn't expect sales to come back that strong anytime soon. The lack of convenient riding areas, the technological complexity of the bikes, and the fact that there are so many other recreation options competing for shrinking disposable income make it a steep, uphill climb.
Truespode
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7/20/2012 8:21am
JustMX... the competing recreation options is spot on! I have stopped riding and gotten back on the bicycle. It doesn't cost me over $100 a week in gas, entry and food to go riding. I wish I could still afford it but I pick and choose my riding now and unfortunately there is not a great series like their once was to make me go into more debt Smile

Ivan
B DUB 333
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7/20/2012 9:41am
ga_pike wrote:
Are you equally upset with CZ, BSA, Puch, Can-Am, Hodaka, Bultaco, Cooper, Husqvarna, Cagiva... shall I go on? I mean, they went through a similar situation...
Are you equally upset with CZ, BSA, Puch, Can-Am, Hodaka, Bultaco, Cooper, Husqvarna, Cagiva... shall I go on? I mean, they went through a similar situation in the late 70's to mid 80's.

Not to mention, this has been coming for quite some time. If you really want to get upset with someone for the "step back" of the big 4 factorys, then you need to get mad at Jeff Glass (Surf Honda), TUF Racing, Mitch Peyton/Pro Circuit, Honda of Troy... I mean these were the teams who stepped up and challenged the factory teams just enough that they were able to gather factory support and start the NASCAR like team style (for lack of a better explination). Maybe Jeremy McGrath is really to blame with his whole, "do my own thing" deal.

This is a move in the right direction and the sport will conmtinue to grow because of it. It is possible that in another 10 or 15 years, we may not see Japanese bikes in the US racing world. Highly doubtful, but entirelly possible. Who will replace them? KTM has stepped up already. What about a return for Husqvarna with a push from BMW? TM could become a contender eventually. Anything is possible.

Our sport will continue to grow and evolve. I think witnessing the change is something we should sit back and enjoy. I remember thinking the move away from box vans was terrible. Now I think it was not only the right move, but a better overall move for our sport.
I disagree, I think that the lack of low budget box van teams is a crying shame. If the sport keeps getting away from its roots, as in a professional could race for 30k a year you'll get a smaller pool to draw from. I know the theory that the best kids wont need money because teams will notice them and snap them up all expenses paid but if he cant afford his first few bikes he ant get noticed... Keep it simple and let it progress as it always has, from hillbilly to hero, not silver spoon fed kids to gold spoon feed... I miss the cheap bikes that were produced in the not so distant past

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