Technique to stop back end kicking on jump faces?

flymoto
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flymoto
Last season I almost a pretty huge crash on a big uphill double. There was a large lump/kicker towards the top of the jump face. It's 4th gear flat and I was hitting it sitting down, all good. Soon as I stood up it started kicking me horribly. I spoke to one of the fast local riders and he said he would never hit it sat down. I have come across this before and are people pinned when I can barely ride over it without it launching me? Do I need to load the spring more? Weight over back end? Any one else have issue.

Always makes me nervous, so want to see if I can improve before I have a accident!

Thanks
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colintrax
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colintrax 2/21/2017 8:03am
2/21/2017 8:03am
Quit sitting down. You already got your answer
Skidaddle
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Skidaddle 2/21/2017 8:07am
2/21/2017 8:07am
"Lets seat bounce a 4th gear pinned gap"

Does quadruple front flip.
Dtat720
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Dtat720 2/21/2017 8:07am
2/21/2017 8:07am
If you are letting off the throttle you are unloading the rear and your rebound is kicking the rear up. If you are keeping the throttle on, your rebound is too fast or you're body position is too far back and loading the rear too much.
bmartens
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bmartens 2/21/2017 8:07am
2/21/2017 8:07am
Yup. I think you already know what you need to do. As a rule, I will only ever seat bounce a jump that I can clear from low 2nd or 3rd. Might be just me though.

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TriRacer27
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TriRacer27 2/21/2017 8:12am
2/21/2017 8:12am
There is a lot more to it than just simply sitting vs standing. Your upper body positioning might change as well as how you are gripping and holding onto the bike. When you stand up on the face of a jump like that, are you gripping with your legs or holding on with your arms? Are you holding the throttle in the same position sitting vs. standing? How is your body positioning when you hit the lip?

Also, is it a steep jump with a quick transition, or is it more of a long, gradual ramp like a ski jump?
RPM68
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RPM68 2/21/2017 8:15am
2/21/2017 8:15am
Do some laps standing up, slow down your pace; concentrate on steering with your toes. Constantly point your toes in and you will grip your bike much more.

Take note, I have not completed the Motorcycle Coaching Bad Dudery Certification Extravaganza Organization's class yet.
Frodad78
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Frodad78 2/21/2017 8:28am
2/21/2017 8:28am
I don't know what the right way is but for me I jump off the kicker, rather that riding it out past the lip. I ride I 125 and normally have to preload on jump faces. Its old school but its the way I jump and it keeps me level. So basically I am standing and I am preloading early so the front goes airborne off the kicker , as it goes I nudge my weight back a bit and the rear follows off the kicker and away you go. So you are basically prejumping, I think this is how Gary Bailey explained it to me years ago when I went to one of his schools.
kaptkaos
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kaptkaos 2/21/2017 8:38am
2/21/2017 8:38am
4S are notoriously harder to manage on kickers, I remember as a kid riding a 125 it was hardly ever an issue, it had to be a really bad kicker to upset the bike. If I remember correctly, my bike would pretty much launch neutral at any throttle position, and another thing is I never jump anything sitting down, but I suck so dont listen to me.

My 450 seems so finicky over jumps. I try to keep a steady throttle all the way off the face and stand up. In the air I will chop the throttle to bring the nose a little down if I can/remember, lol! I also try to get back on the throttle just before landing if I can remember. I am basically scared shitless on jumps so I am hanging on and happy when I dont die.
flymoto
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flymoto 2/21/2017 8:41am
2/21/2017 8:41am
Skidaddle wrote:
"Lets seat bounce a 4th gear pinned gap"

Does quadruple front flip.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Thanks for the constructive input though Smile
flymoto
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flymoto 2/21/2017 8:46am
2/21/2017 8:46am
TriRacer27 wrote:
There is a lot more to it than just simply sitting vs standing. Your upper body positioning might change as well as how you are gripping...
There is a lot more to it than just simply sitting vs standing. Your upper body positioning might change as well as how you are gripping and holding onto the bike. When you stand up on the face of a jump like that, are you gripping with your legs or holding on with your arms? Are you holding the throttle in the same position sitting vs. standing? How is your body positioning when you hit the lip?

Also, is it a steep jump with a quick transition, or is it more of a long, gradual ramp like a ski jump?
I wasn't seat bouncing as such. I was just sitting towards the rear putting most of my weight on it. The face is quite gradual, but because of the speed the suspension is very compressed. I probably wasn't gripping with my legs, had a fair neutral body position! I'm supposed to be racing there soon and want to get it dialled in so it doesn't happen again.
flymoto
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flymoto 2/21/2017 8:48am
2/21/2017 8:48am
RPM68 wrote:
Do some laps standing up, slow down your pace; concentrate on steering with your toes. Constantly point your toes in and you will grip your bike...
Do some laps standing up, slow down your pace; concentrate on steering with your toes. Constantly point your toes in and you will grip your bike much more.

Take note, I have not completed the Motorcycle Coaching Bad Dudery Certification Extravaganza Organization's class yet.
I'll take note. Thanks Smile
Ted722
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Ted722 2/21/2017 8:50am
2/21/2017 8:50am Edited Date/Time 2/21/2017 10:45am
What size bike are you riding? Sounds like you're hitting the face with a lot of RPM. Have you ever tried 5th using less RPM? I've always had better success on my big bore with jumps like that by going a gear higher and not having the motor whining its guts out upsetting the chassis.
Suns_PSD
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Suns_PSD 2/21/2017 8:51am
2/21/2017 8:51am
Turn in rear rebound damping 1-2 clicks.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 2/21/2017 9:04am
2/21/2017 9:04am
Suns_PSD wrote:
Turn in rear rebound damping 1-2 clicks.
If you know ANY suspension techs...

Get them to come out to the track and help you set-up your suspension. The trick is getting it right for THAT Jump WITHOUT screwing it up for everywhere-else.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 2/21/2017 9:05am
2/21/2017 9:05am
peelout wrote:
try scrubbing harder bro
Bro, would you hit that shit in 6th?
seth505
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seth505 2/21/2017 9:11am
2/21/2017 9:11am
Ha, I like how people respond that you can't seat bounce a 4th gear jump.

I'm assuming the fast guy you spoke with said he wouldn't sit down on that jump in particular because of the bumps developed on the face.

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seth505
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seth505 2/21/2017 9:16am
2/21/2017 9:16am
peelout wrote:
try scrubbing harder bro
TeamGreen wrote:
Bro, would you hit that shit in 6th?
mattyhamz2 wrote:
7th, bro..... 7th
I specialize in custom trannys..wait a minute...
JW381
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JW381 2/21/2017 9:45am
2/21/2017 9:45am
I think rebound settings in the rear make a difference. I rode a friend's bike and it did that over every jump, it seemed.
twotwosix
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twotwosix 2/21/2017 9:53am
2/21/2017 9:53am Edited Date/Time 2/21/2017 9:54am
I would say you need to seat bounce harder. Just plop down on the back of that bad boy as hard as you can off every jump. Also, back the rebound and the high speed compression clickers all the way out on the shock. Cool
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 2/21/2017 9:59am
2/21/2017 9:59am
TeamGreen wrote:
Bro, would you hit that shit in 6th?
mattyhamz2 wrote:
7th, bro..... 7th
seth505 wrote:
I specialize in custom trannys..wait a minute...
I see what'cha did there...

San Francicso much?Laughing
aees
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aees 2/21/2017 10:36am
2/21/2017 10:36am
Not squeezing with legs, to fast rebound, to soft rear spring, to soft low speed comp in combination with to fast rebound.

To slow rebound in rear and you will loose front end traction.

So, stiffer low speedvcompression can allow you to run faster rebound. When rear runs out of compression stroke, it wants to use rebound to return to original position. To stiff rear spring can also cause this issue since it wants to rebound to soon rather then continue down the stroke a bit more.

So right Springs, right clicker settings and right sag in combo with right technique will help you.
temporarily_locked 2/21/2017 10:39am
2/21/2017 10:39am Edited Date/Time 2/21/2017 10:41am
I wouldnt adjust your suspension due to issues on one jump. Sitting your probably have you weight more toward the rear and are driving the rear suspension harder into the face. Standing your probably shifting your weight forward which creates a bias and allows the rear end to bounce and kick around.

Try to get your weight back, lighten your front end to settle the rear suspension up the face, but be more proactive with your body movements off the lip to keep you nose down through the air.
CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 2/21/2017 11:48am
2/21/2017 11:48am
Definitely some good advice stated above. Also keep your eyes looking ahead and hit a different part of the lip thats not cupped out or has a kicker. Many time on practice days if you go 6 inches to the right or left the lines are 100% fresh.
Moto520
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Moto520 2/21/2017 12:01pm
2/21/2017 12:01pm
high speed compression on the rear shock....play with it.
flymoto
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flymoto 2/21/2017 12:27pm
2/21/2017 12:27pm
Thanks for all the advice, some decent pointers there. I think I do need to grip with my legs more, it just doesn't come
Natural so always get out of the habit of doing it! I probably won't adjust my suspension too much as it's not too far off a decent setting I think. It's a crf 450 I'm riding, think it's down to me more than the bike...
Iridereallyslow 2/21/2017 12:30pm
2/21/2017 12:30pm
flymoto wrote:
I wasn't seat bouncing as such. I was just sitting towards the rear putting most of my weight on it. The face is quite gradual, but...
I wasn't seat bouncing as such. I was just sitting towards the rear putting most of my weight on it. The face is quite gradual, but because of the speed the suspension is very compressed. I probably wasn't gripping with my legs, had a fair neutral body position! I'm supposed to be racing there soon and want to get it dialled in so it doesn't happen again.
When you say "sitting towards the rear" that sounds like the issue to me. For me personally, when I seat bounce a jump or jump sitting down, I usually sit forward, or neutral (middle), NOT towards the rear. If you weight the rear more so then the front, then the rear is gong to rebound more so then the front, potentially causing you to get bucked.
ccullins
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ccullins 2/21/2017 2:28pm
2/21/2017 2:28pm
Here's an extreme example of a jump with a bad kicker, nothing will send a rider over the bars quicker than a tire jump.
You can see he approaches at a neutral Standing position on the gas. As the bike leaves the jump his weight is far back on the bike. At mid flight he goes back to a more neutral position to level the bike out.












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