Tear-down time

GuyB
Profile picture for user GuyB
Posts
35700
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
1215th
GuyB
Edited Date/Time 6/16/2014 10:38pm
Five of the top 250 bikes (top three from each moto) were torn down after the day at High Point. All were found to be legal.

That's Baggett, Martin, Webb, Anderson, and Pourcel.
|
Ing
Profile picture for user Ing
Posts
3655
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Spring Hill, FL US
Ing 6/15/2014 10:52am
6/15/2014 10:52am
That's reassuring. Good to hear.
tp4
Profile picture for user tp4
Posts
638
Joined
2/2/2008
Location
KS US
tp4 6/15/2014 12:05pm
6/15/2014 12:05pm
lets see.. ama teardown team... expected a pic from the photographer...legal thats funny.!
Xeno
Profile picture for user Xeno
Posts
3635
Joined
12/30/2010
Location
San Clemente, CA US
Xeno 6/15/2014 12:08pm
6/15/2014 12:08pm
GuyB wrote:
Five of the top 250 bikes (top three from each moto) were torn down after the day at High Point. All were found to be legal...
Five of the top 250 bikes (top three from each moto) were torn down after the day at High Point. All were found to be legal.

That's Baggett, Martin, Webb, Anderson, and Pourcel.
Do you have a short list of what the AMA checks? Bore and stroke for sure, but what else?

The Shop

See All »
plowboy
Profile picture for user plowboy
Posts
11664
Joined
1/3/2010
Location
Norwich, KS US
plowboy 6/15/2014 1:09pm
6/15/2014 1:09pm
Random makes it pretty risky to pull the trigger on cheating. I like it. I may be naive but I doubt the big boys even try...just the opposite...they most likely take a lot of care to ensure compliance.
gsxr6
Profile picture for user gsxr6
Posts
1956
Joined
9/3/2011
Location
Anderson, CA US
gsxr6 6/15/2014 1:53pm
6/15/2014 1:53pm
plowboy wrote:
Random makes it pretty risky to pull the trigger on cheating. I like it. I may be naive but I doubt the big boys even try...just...
Random makes it pretty risky to pull the trigger on cheating. I like it. I may be naive but I doubt the big boys even try...just the opposite...they most likely take a lot of care to ensure compliance.
This. In the past, cheater bikes holeshot and then did a fade to the back to ensure best chance of no teardown. That is what should be watched for
Wandell
Profile picture for user Wandell
Posts
7563
Joined
12/17/2008
Location
Cairo, GA US
Wandell 6/15/2014 2:07pm
6/15/2014 2:07pm
The top teams are pushing the envelope as far as they can. I don't think they would risk running anything illegal. Heck, last year MXA did a test on Ciancurulo's Pro Circuit bike. They said it had something like a two hour life expectancy. Barely enough time to cover two practice sessions and two motos. The mechanic told them they could ride it for like 10 minutes because that was all it had left. People think 250f's are unreliable, can you imagine buying a 250f and finding the motor needed rebuilding after only two hours?! That's a freaking high strung engine.
lostboy819
Profile picture for user lostboy819
Posts
11521
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Somewhere, CO US
Fantasy
1342nd
lostboy819 6/15/2014 10:18pm
6/15/2014 10:18pm Edited Date/Time 6/15/2014 10:20pm
plowboy wrote:
Random makes it pretty risky to pull the trigger on cheating. I like it. I may be naive but I doubt the big boys even try...just...
Random makes it pretty risky to pull the trigger on cheating. I like it. I may be naive but I doubt the big boys even try...just the opposite...they most likely take a lot of care to ensure compliance.
gsxr6 wrote:
This. In the past, cheater bikes holeshot and then did a fade to the back to ensure best chance of no teardown. That is what should...
This. In the past, cheater bikes holeshot and then did a fade to the back to ensure best chance of no teardown. That is what should be watched for
Now why would some one fade to the back on purpose so they don't get torn down so what is to be gained by not finishing up front ? what is the point of racing if you are not going to try to win ? So Alessi must have a cheater bike in SX then by your thinking, he gets the holeshot and charges out of the top 10 so he doesn't get torn down ?
zehn
Profile picture for user zehn
Posts
7272
Joined
1/15/2013
Location
Anchorage, AK US
zehn 6/15/2014 10:24pm
6/15/2014 10:24pm
gsxr6 wrote:
This. In the past, cheater bikes holeshot and then did a fade to the back to ensure best chance of no teardown. That is what should...
This. In the past, cheater bikes holeshot and then did a fade to the back to ensure best chance of no teardown. That is what should be watched for
So you're saying we should be checking Reed's bike?
Anthony Siracuse 6/15/2014 10:26pm
6/15/2014 10:26pm
plowboy wrote:
Random makes it pretty risky to pull the trigger on cheating. I like it. I may be naive but I doubt the big boys even try...just...
Random makes it pretty risky to pull the trigger on cheating. I like it. I may be naive but I doubt the big boys even try...just the opposite...they most likely take a lot of care to ensure compliance.
gsxr6 wrote:
This. In the past, cheater bikes holeshot and then did a fade to the back to ensure best chance of no teardown. That is what should...
This. In the past, cheater bikes holeshot and then did a fade to the back to ensure best chance of no teardown. That is what should be watched for
lostboy819 wrote:
Now why would some one fade to the back on purpose so they don't get torn down so what is to be gained by not finishing...
Now why would some one fade to the back on purpose so they don't get torn down so what is to be gained by not finishing up front ? what is the point of racing if you are not going to try to win ? So Alessi must have a cheater bike in SX then by your thinking, he gets the holeshot and charges out of the top 10 so he doesn't get torn down ?
Haha I was thinking the same. The idea is retarded.
lostboy819
Profile picture for user lostboy819
Posts
11521
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Somewhere, CO US
Fantasy
1342nd
lostboy819 6/15/2014 10:31pm
6/15/2014 10:31pm
gsxr6 wrote:
This. In the past, cheater bikes holeshot and then did a fade to the back to ensure best chance of no teardown. That is what should...
This. In the past, cheater bikes holeshot and then did a fade to the back to ensure best chance of no teardown. That is what should be watched for
lostboy819 wrote:
Now why would some one fade to the back on purpose so they don't get torn down so what is to be gained by not finishing...
Now why would some one fade to the back on purpose so they don't get torn down so what is to be gained by not finishing up front ? what is the point of racing if you are not going to try to win ? So Alessi must have a cheater bike in SX then by your thinking, he gets the holeshot and charges out of the top 10 so he doesn't get torn down ?
Anthony Siracuse wrote:
Haha I was thinking the same. The idea is retarded.
lol Exactly, you don't cheat to lose,you cheat to win. Pinch
Matt Fisher
Profile picture for user Matt Fisher
Posts
3948
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Visalia, CA US
Fantasy
1177th
Matt Fisher 6/15/2014 10:44pm
6/15/2014 10:44pm
I'm guessing the idea is for riders that would normally finish in 20-40th, a cheater motor gets them a better start and they end up 15-20th.
sbarrington314 6/15/2014 10:45pm
6/15/2014 10:45pm
plowboy wrote:
Random makes it pretty risky to pull the trigger on cheating. I like it. I may be naive but I doubt the big boys even try...just...
Random makes it pretty risky to pull the trigger on cheating. I like it. I may be naive but I doubt the big boys even try...just the opposite...they most likely take a lot of care to ensure compliance.
gsxr6 wrote:
This. In the past, cheater bikes holeshot and then did a fade to the back to ensure best chance of no teardown. That is what should...
This. In the past, cheater bikes holeshot and then did a fade to the back to ensure best chance of no teardown. That is what should be watched for
lostboy819 wrote:
Now why would some one fade to the back on purpose so they don't get torn down so what is to be gained by not finishing...
Now why would some one fade to the back on purpose so they don't get torn down so what is to be gained by not finishing up front ? what is the point of racing if you are not going to try to win ? So Alessi must have a cheater bike in SX then by your thinking, he gets the holeshot and charges out of the top 10 so he doesn't get torn down ?
Im not saying I agree but Reed probably got just as much coverage as Stewy did in the first moto. What place did Short and Grant come in again? IDK but I do remember that Reed was riding a Kawasaki and pulled 2 sick holeshots. Wink
lostboy819
Profile picture for user lostboy819
Posts
11521
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Somewhere, CO US
Fantasy
1342nd
lostboy819 6/15/2014 10:54pm
6/15/2014 10:54pm
Matt Fisher wrote:
I'm guessing the idea is for riders that would normally finish in 20-40th, a cheater motor gets them a better start and they end up 15-20th.
Degan won a SX race on a cheater motor. Like I said , you cheat to win not lose. Coverage of a rider fading is not good coverage.
enketchum
Profile picture for user enketchum
Posts
3842
Joined
2/6/2012
Location
Pasadena, CA US
enketchum 6/15/2014 11:54pm
6/15/2014 11:54pm
lostboy819 wrote:
Degan won a SX race on a cheater motor. Like I said , you cheat to win not lose. Coverage of a rider fading is not...
Degan won a SX race on a cheater motor. Like I said , you cheat to win not lose. Coverage of a rider fading is not good coverage.
Watson has told stories of Deegan pulling near holeshots at nationals with big bores and then fading back due to to skill....
GuyB
Profile picture for user GuyB
Posts
35700
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
1215th
GuyB 6/16/2014 4:38am
6/16/2014 4:38am
Wandell wrote:
The top teams are pushing the envelope as far as they can. I don't think they would risk running anything illegal. Heck, last year MXA did...
The top teams are pushing the envelope as far as they can. I don't think they would risk running anything illegal. Heck, last year MXA did a test on Ciancurulo's Pro Circuit bike. They said it had something like a two hour life expectancy. Barely enough time to cover two practice sessions and two motos. The mechanic told them they could ride it for like 10 minutes because that was all it had left. People think 250f's are unreliable, can you imagine buying a 250f and finding the motor needed rebuilding after only two hours?! That's a freaking high strung engine.
I saw a spec card for a factory team's 450 engine, and it was the same. A two-hour run time.
Ebs
Profile picture for user Ebs
Posts
838
Joined
6/1/2014
Location
MI US
Ebs 6/16/2014 4:57am
6/16/2014 4:57am
Blowing an engine in front of a national audience looks bad when you've trying to sell bikes. I wonder if that's just a 'we will tear it down because we can' kinda thing or if they are actually seeing considerable wear on engine parts.
Regis
Profile picture for user Regis
Posts
2696
Joined
6/17/2008
Location
Gonzales, LA US
Fantasy
292nd
Regis 6/16/2014 5:06am
6/16/2014 5:06am Edited Date/Time 6/16/2014 5:06am
lostboy819 wrote:
Now why would some one fade to the back on purpose so they don't get torn down so what is to be gained by not finishing...
Now why would some one fade to the back on purpose so they don't get torn down so what is to be gained by not finishing up front ? what is the point of racing if you are not going to try to win ? So Alessi must have a cheater bike in SX then by your thinking, he gets the holeshot and charges out of the top 10 so he doesn't get torn down ?
Anthony Siracuse wrote:
Haha I was thinking the same. The idea is retarded.
lostboy819 wrote:
lol Exactly, you don't cheat to lose,you cheat to win. Pinch
Actually,

this is exactly what you do with a cheater motor. You don't cheat to win, because you will get caught. You cheat to do better when you aren't quite on the top level, it's just like PED's.

Pit Row

See All »
Berm
Profile picture for user Berm
Posts
647
Joined
4/23/2014
Location
MI US
Fantasy
136th
Berm 6/16/2014 5:20am
6/16/2014 5:20am
I've got motors here that are only supposed to last 2 hours. They use a radical cam (SOHC deal) and stock valves and springs (super cheap with oem dealer discounts). Replace valves and springs after every national. It is much cheaper in the long run and the failure rate is known to be ~2 hours of run time with our combo.

Using any other valve springs/valves and you don't know the failure rate so you end up replacing expensive parts either before they wear out or you leave them in too long and blow an expensive motor.
Gringoe
Profile picture for user Gringoe
Posts
1586
Joined
4/12/2014
Location
MP
Gringoe 6/16/2014 5:30am
6/16/2014 5:30am
Wandell wrote:
The top teams are pushing the envelope as far as they can. I don't think they would risk running anything illegal. Heck, last year MXA did...
The top teams are pushing the envelope as far as they can. I don't think they would risk running anything illegal. Heck, last year MXA did a test on Ciancurulo's Pro Circuit bike. They said it had something like a two hour life expectancy. Barely enough time to cover two practice sessions and two motos. The mechanic told them they could ride it for like 10 minutes because that was all it had left. People think 250f's are unreliable, can you imagine buying a 250f and finding the motor needed rebuilding after only two hours?! That's a freaking high strung engine.
GuyB wrote:
I saw a spec card for a factory team's 450 engine, and it was the same. A two-hour run time.
I heard from a pretty respected motor builder (that's taken them apart before) the geico bikes have something like a 20 hour run time. Don't know if he was pulling a fast one on me or being serious. Now that I think about it it's been very rare for a geico bike to break.
BobbyM
Profile picture for user BobbyM
Posts
21449
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
AZ US
BobbyM 6/16/2014 7:04am
6/16/2014 7:04am
GuyB wrote:
Five of the top 250 bikes (top three from each moto) were torn down after the day at High Point. All were found to be legal...
Five of the top 250 bikes (top three from each moto) were torn down after the day at High Point. All were found to be legal.

That's Baggett, Martin, Webb, Anderson, and Pourcel.
Did they drug test the scooters too? Smile
GuyB
Profile picture for user GuyB
Posts
35700
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
1215th
GuyB 6/16/2014 7:18am
6/16/2014 7:18am
BobbyM wrote:
Did they drug test the scooters too? Smile
Well, I guess you could equate fuel testing to drug testing for bikes. Smile
hillbilly
Profile picture for user hillbilly
Posts
9080
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Afton, TN US
hillbilly 6/16/2014 7:38am
6/16/2014 7:38am
Do they just look at bore stroke?

Or pull the crank,look at tranny gears,etc?
Uncleof2
Profile picture for user Uncleof2
Posts
1276
Joined
5/10/2008
Location
Silverdale, WA US
Uncleof2 6/16/2014 7:49am
6/16/2014 7:49am
GuyB wrote:
Five of the top 250 bikes (top three from each moto) were torn down after the day at High Point. All were found to be legal...
Five of the top 250 bikes (top three from each moto) were torn down after the day at High Point. All were found to be legal.

That's Baggett, Martin, Webb, Anderson, and Pourcel.
So they don't check Honda's, doesn't seem fair.Wink
GuyB
Profile picture for user GuyB
Posts
35700
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
1215th
GuyB 6/16/2014 8:12am
6/16/2014 8:12am
hillbilly wrote:
Do they just look at bore stroke?

Or pull the crank,look at tranny gears,etc?
I think displacement would be the only thing regulated, and they'd have no reason to look at any of the items you mentioned.
GuyB
Profile picture for user GuyB
Posts
35700
Joined
7/10/2006
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA US
Fantasy
1215th
GuyB 6/16/2014 8:14am
6/16/2014 8:14am
Uncleof2 wrote:
So they don't check Honda's, doesn't seem fair.Wink
It doesn't seem fair that there were no Hondas in the top three of either moto? That was the criteria for inspection.
Uncleof2
Profile picture for user Uncleof2
Posts
1276
Joined
5/10/2008
Location
Silverdale, WA US
Uncleof2 6/16/2014 8:16am
6/16/2014 8:16am
Uncleof2 wrote:
So they don't check Honda's, doesn't seem fair.Wink
GuyB wrote:
It doesn't seem fair that there were no Hondas in the top three of either moto? That was the criteria for inspection.
I know, I was making a funny.Silly
hillbilly
Profile picture for user hillbilly
Posts
9080
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Afton, TN US
hillbilly 6/16/2014 4:20pm
6/16/2014 4:20pm
hillbilly wrote:
Do they just look at bore stroke?

Or pull the crank,look at tranny gears,etc?
GuyB wrote:
I think displacement would be the only thing regulated, and they'd have no reason to look at any of the items you mentioned.
So,only displacement is it on cheating?

I'd think you would have to have a production tranny and crank.

If not then cheating by oversize would not be needed ,ultra light spinning parts would gain plenty but cost large.
ando
Profile picture for user ando
Posts
3062
Joined
8/20/2009
Location
Perth AU
ando 6/16/2014 4:59pm
6/16/2014 4:59pm Edited Date/Time 6/16/2014 5:00pm
From AMA Pro Racing rulebook:

3.3 Engines

a. Engines are restricted to single cylinder.
b. Engine displacement shall be recorded in cubic centimeters.
c. Supercharging or turbo charging is not permitted.
d. Cylinder bore may be increased to achieve the displacement limit on motorcycles homologated for competition,
provided that any kits or parts used to increase engine displacement (to the approved class limit) must use
items that have been approved by AMA Pro Racing.
e. Stroke must remain the same as the homologated model.
f. Material and castings of cylinders, cylinder heads, and crankcases must be the same as an originally approved
model of the same manufacturer. Material may be added or removed from these items. Cylinder liners or coating
may be replaced or added provided the original cylinder casting is utilized.
g. For 4-stroke engines the original intake and exhaust valve angle must remain the same as on the homologated
model.
h. Type of cooling system (water, oil or air) must remain as homologated.
i. Fuel injection is permitted only if it is standard equipment on the homologated model.

3.4 Transmissions and Primary Drive

a. Motorcycles are restricted to rear-wheel drive only.
b. Primary drive method must remain the same as the homologated model.
c. Primary drive must be completely enclosed by a cover or guard.
d. The maximum number of speeds in the gearbox is six.
e. Number of transmission gears must be the same as the homologated model.
gsxr6
Profile picture for user gsxr6
Posts
1956
Joined
9/3/2011
Location
Anderson, CA US
gsxr6 6/16/2014 5:29pm
6/16/2014 5:29pm
Anthony Siracuse wrote:
Haha I was thinking the same. The idea is retarded.
lostboy819 wrote:
lol Exactly, you don't cheat to lose,you cheat to win. Pinch
Regis wrote:
Actually, this is exactly what you do with a cheater motor. You don't cheat to win, because you will get caught. You cheat to do better...
Actually,

this is exactly what you do with a cheater motor. You don't cheat to win, because you will get caught. You cheat to do better when you aren't quite on the top level, it's just like PED's.
From someone who would actually know. I'm just a vitard BUT it isn't hard to understand that a holeshot makes the small builders look like they are on level with the top builders works motor. A fade just makes the rider seem undertrained or unfit. Not hard to understand how this could help sell hop ups. As for reed I wasn't saying anything. I doubt anyone has to cheat with a 450 to start with as they are plenty fast with a few off the shelf parts. Heck the guy who builds a smooth controllable 450 is probably the fast guys favorite. Fire breathing jerk your arms out of the sockets isn't always a winning combo. Would probably make a guy fade that much quicker also.

Post a reply to: Tear-down time