TM MX 250 4T factory 2016

Sly_mx15
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Sly_mx15
Hi every one ! I saw this surprising engine on Samuel Bernardini's bike. And particulary the 2 pipes.











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Sly_mx15
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Sly_mx15 6/12/2016 1:45pm
6/12/2016 1:45pm
(Sorry for my English) It was at the MXGP in France. The mechanic said me that the head of the engine comes from moto 3 bike...
HuskyEd
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HuskyEd 6/12/2016 3:09pm
6/12/2016 3:09pm
Thank you for posting. That is some trick stuff right there. Your English is better than my French so don't worry. Wink
colintrax
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colintrax 6/12/2016 4:08pm
6/12/2016 4:08pm
What's the point?? If the bike really needs to flow that much exhaust, a larger single pipe would be better far as I know.

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nytsmaC
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nytsmaC 6/12/2016 4:23pm
6/12/2016 4:23pm Edited Date/Time 6/12/2016 4:24pm
colintrax wrote:
What's the point?? If the bike really needs to flow that much exhaust, a larger single pipe would be better far as I know.
Probably has to do with the strict sound rules, being able to make more power with duals while still being legal.

Looks like they don't use any titanium bolts on those things, surprising for a factory team. Does anyone else use an electric cooling fan?
colintrax
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colintrax 6/12/2016 4:32pm
6/12/2016 4:32pm
colintrax wrote:
What's the point?? If the bike really needs to flow that much exhaust, a larger single pipe would be better far as I know.
nytsmaC wrote:
Probably has to do with the strict sound rules, being able to make more power with duals while still being legal. Looks like they don't use...
Probably has to do with the strict sound rules, being able to make more power with duals while still being legal.

Looks like they don't use any titanium bolts on those things, surprising for a factory team. Does anyone else use an electric cooling fan?
Good point.
I wonder what that bike weighs
Underground 6/12/2016 4:34pm
6/12/2016 4:34pm
colintrax wrote:
What's the point?? If the bike really needs to flow that much exhaust, a larger single pipe would be better far as I know.
Maybe the engineer from MOTO3 knows more than you. Possibly? It's got to do with flow velocities. Twin smaller pipes have better flow velocities at low RPM and produce better torque. In a larger pipe at lower RPM the exhaust gases suffer from turbulence which reduces flow, scavenging and power at low RPM. Major problem when douche bags over exhaust their cars to make up for lack of pants package. Look up header design for cars and twin primary runners for rotary engines. There are many roads to go down to get to where you want to be.
Underground 6/12/2016 4:43pm
6/12/2016 4:43pm
And after this MOTO3 engineer has been in MX a while, he'll most likely come to the realisation that crash damage prevention is another major consideration when choosing components to lessen DNF's as crashing and remounting to finish is more common in MX than road, and dropping 25 points really hurts your end of season bonus
BobPA
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BobPA 6/12/2016 5:12pm
6/12/2016 5:12pm
Underground wrote:
Maybe the engineer from MOTO3 knows more than you. Possibly? It's got to do with flow velocities. Twin smaller pipes have better flow velocities at low...
Maybe the engineer from MOTO3 knows more than you. Possibly? It's got to do with flow velocities. Twin smaller pipes have better flow velocities at low RPM and produce better torque. In a larger pipe at lower RPM the exhaust gases suffer from turbulence which reduces flow, scavenging and power at low RPM. Major problem when douche bags over exhaust their cars to make up for lack of pants package. Look up header design for cars and twin primary runners for rotary engines. There are many roads to go down to get to where you want to be.
My rx7 has a relatively mild hybrid turbo setup. I first used a 4inch down pipe (cheap on fleabay), no cat, and out through racing beat duals. Talked to a few engine guys and ended up throwing a 3.5" setup on....I could not believe how much better the car performed everywhere....
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kzizok 6/12/2016 5:17pm
6/12/2016 5:17pm Edited Date/Time 6/12/2016 5:18pm


Not my actual bike. However, I am embarrassed to say that I had one (VOR). It was one weird motherscratcher!
nytsmaC
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nytsmaC 6/12/2016 5:25pm
6/12/2016 5:25pm
I always wanted one of those, weird as they were!

My 02 TM 400MX had dual headers as well, it was pretty common on the 4-strokes at the time.



burn1986
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burn1986 6/12/2016 5:26pm
6/12/2016 5:26pm Edited Date/Time 6/12/2016 5:26pm
Sly_mx15 wrote:
Hi every one ! I saw this surprising engine on Samuel Bernardini's bike. And particulary the 2 pipes. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2016/06/12/138808/s1200_20160604_191806.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2016/06/12/138809/s1200_20160604_191741.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2016/06/12/138810/s1200_20160605_181326.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2016/06/12/138811/s1200_20160604_191752.jpg[/img]
Hi every one ! I saw this surprising engine on Samuel Bernardini's bike. And particulary the 2 pipes.











X2. It's just stupid. Hopefully they're not trying to copy Honda, because everyone still shakes their head when they talk about the Honda's two-pipe-nonsense.
kiwifan
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kiwifan 6/12/2016 5:37pm
6/12/2016 5:37pm
burn1986 wrote:
X2. It's just stupid. Hopefully they're not trying to copy Honda, because everyone still shakes their head when they talk about the Honda's two-pipe-nonsense.
Its called sound rules, that is what they are trying to get around with still good HP
Bearuno
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Bearuno 6/12/2016 5:54pm
6/12/2016 5:54pm
burn1986 wrote:
X2. It's just stupid. Hopefully they're not trying to copy Honda, because everyone still shakes their head when they talk about the Honda's two-pipe-nonsense.
It's about noise control, whilst getting power, Burn.

As nytsmaC said - sound rules are strict, and moreover, enforced in the GPs - they don't play games. You get taken off the track, or DQ'd after a GP if you don't pass the sound levels - doesn't matter if it's race damage or not. RV, for example, would probably be missing one of his Championships if noise controls / rules that apply in GPs, were in the US Nationals. Remember when he trashed a muffler in a moto and blarped throughout the race?

Noise regs will progressively get tighter and tighter. The companies / teams that can control noise, without stuffing up the power, are the ones that will 'win' - deservedly so, I reckon.

I'm pretty sure that TM nudges the weight limits. As a frame maker / fabricator, I can look at the TMs frames endlessly - that's how a Aluminium frame should be constructed / welded., Gorgeous bikes.
Underground 6/12/2016 7:00pm
6/12/2016 7:00pm
burn1986 wrote:
X2. It's just stupid. Hopefully they're not trying to copy Honda, because everyone still shakes their head when they talk about the Honda's two-pipe-nonsense.
Bearuno wrote:
It's about noise control, whilst getting power, Burn. As nytsmaC said - sound rules are strict, and moreover, enforced in the GPs - they don't play...
It's about noise control, whilst getting power, Burn.

As nytsmaC said - sound rules are strict, and moreover, enforced in the GPs - they don't play games. You get taken off the track, or DQ'd after a GP if you don't pass the sound levels - doesn't matter if it's race damage or not. RV, for example, would probably be missing one of his Championships if noise controls / rules that apply in GPs, were in the US Nationals. Remember when he trashed a muffler in a moto and blarped throughout the race?

Noise regs will progressively get tighter and tighter. The companies / teams that can control noise, without stuffing up the power, are the ones that will 'win' - deservedly so, I reckon.

I'm pretty sure that TM nudges the weight limits. As a frame maker / fabricator, I can look at the TMs frames endlessly - that's how a Aluminium frame should be constructed / welded., Gorgeous bikes.
I can look at TM's endlessly. Remember seeing my first one back in 93 at Failford. Billet everything!
Crush
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Crush 6/12/2016 7:00pm
6/12/2016 7:00pm
What's the comparative weight of a two pipe system to a single?

I know the can is quite small compared but here the headers are double... the honda's still split near the airbox right?
Underground 6/12/2016 7:06pm
6/12/2016 7:06pm
Underground wrote:
Maybe the engineer from MOTO3 knows more than you. Possibly? It's got to do with flow velocities. Twin smaller pipes have better flow velocities at low...
Maybe the engineer from MOTO3 knows more than you. Possibly? It's got to do with flow velocities. Twin smaller pipes have better flow velocities at low RPM and produce better torque. In a larger pipe at lower RPM the exhaust gases suffer from turbulence which reduces flow, scavenging and power at low RPM. Major problem when douche bags over exhaust their cars to make up for lack of pants package. Look up header design for cars and twin primary runners for rotary engines. There are many roads to go down to get to where you want to be.
BobPA wrote:
My rx7 has a relatively mild hybrid turbo setup. I first used a 4inch down pipe (cheap on fleabay), no cat, and out through racing beat...
My rx7 has a relatively mild hybrid turbo setup. I first used a 4inch down pipe (cheap on fleabay), no cat, and out through racing beat duals. Talked to a few engine guys and ended up throwing a 3.5" setup on....I could not believe how much better the car performed everywhere....
I went through 12A and 13B extend ports, mild and full cut bridge ports, a 13B PP. Learned a lot about long primaries, keeping torque up while dB's down. Still have a series V engine and box in the shed waiting for a worthy car, time and money. Cool That's probably reverse but.Sad

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Mit12
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Mit12 6/12/2016 10:40pm
6/12/2016 10:40pm
One pipe for each exhaust valve and port. If you remember Doug Henerys factory YZ 400F it had twin pipes and seperate exahaust portsand three intake valves. Better flow equals more power. Down side is cost which is why Yamaha did not have duel pipes on the production bikes.
Jrewing
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Jrewing 6/13/2016 12:32am
6/13/2016 12:32am
Tm don't know what they're doing obviously.. Should have consulted Vital first
BobPA
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BobPA 6/13/2016 5:45am
6/13/2016 5:45am
Underground wrote:
I went through 12A and 13B extend ports, mild and full cut bridge ports, a 13B PP. Learned a lot about long primaries, keeping torque up...
I went through 12A and 13B extend ports, mild and full cut bridge ports, a 13B PP. Learned a lot about long primaries, keeping torque up while dB's down. Still have a series V engine and box in the shed waiting for a worthy car, time and money. Cool That's probably reverse but.Sad
I've got a 13b Bridgy sitting the corner for a rainy day...Did the port work about a year ago, bought a snail and a Haltech, then bought a house....So it has sadly been relegated to the corner for the time being..
Kawasaki-rider 6/13/2016 7:57am
6/13/2016 7:57am
Bearuno wrote:
It's about noise control, whilst getting power, Burn. As nytsmaC said - sound rules are strict, and moreover, enforced in the GPs - they don't play...
It's about noise control, whilst getting power, Burn.

As nytsmaC said - sound rules are strict, and moreover, enforced in the GPs - they don't play games. You get taken off the track, or DQ'd after a GP if you don't pass the sound levels - doesn't matter if it's race damage or not. RV, for example, would probably be missing one of his Championships if noise controls / rules that apply in GPs, were in the US Nationals. Remember when he trashed a muffler in a moto and blarped throughout the race?

Noise regs will progressively get tighter and tighter. The companies / teams that can control noise, without stuffing up the power, are the ones that will 'win' - deservedly so, I reckon.

I'm pretty sure that TM nudges the weight limits. As a frame maker / fabricator, I can look at the TMs frames endlessly - that's how a Aluminium frame should be constructed / welded., Gorgeous bikes.
I have also seen 2 (!) >50 hrs 85cc frames crack inte the most odd places, and the riders arent even that fast..
wey
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wey 6/13/2016 10:21am
6/13/2016 10:21am
If it aint better! Than why every moto3 bike has it. There is also more money into the moto3 scène.

Besides That Samuel is almost always in front at the start with his tm, also if he has a bad starting position
Moens_Andy 6/13/2016 11:49am
6/13/2016 11:49am
Samuel is riding his bike like everts set up his bike , Everts has always set up his bike's for the start. He explained once there is no easier way too pas multiple people than in the start
philG
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philG 6/13/2016 11:53am
6/13/2016 11:53am
Moens_Andy wrote:
Samuel is riding his bike like everts set up his bike , Everts has always set up his bike's for the start. He explained once there...
Samuel is riding his bike like everts set up his bike , Everts has always set up his bike's for the start. He explained once there is no easier way too pas multiple people than in the start
Agreed. Honda got this wrong last year , Paulin and Bobreyshev couldnt buy a start , they had to go back and sort it. This year the bike hauls out of the start
Sly_mx15
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Sly_mx15 6/13/2016 12:10pm
6/13/2016 12:10pm
The mechanic said that the 2 pipes produce more power and less sound...
He said that this system may be on production bikes next year.
It's interresting to see that not only japanese and austrian work on improving dirt bike.
I think that TM is a good (italian) brand. Aluminium frame, hydraulic clutch, 2 strokes and 4 strokes with injection and filter on front... (air box in carbone hear)


The gas tank and subframe in carbone too.


There was a steering damper like honda's Under the front plate (no picture...)

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