Supercross helps or hurts USA MX riders ?

Julian
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8/13/2015 10:17am Edited Date/Time 8/15/2015 6:02am
History Lesson:

years ago EVERYBODY was saying that it was SX that had honed the skills of the USA riders and had enabled them to start winning the MXDN year after year............

Now I hear on PulpMX from the experts that it is actually SX that has hurt the USA riders and allowed the Euros to start beating them.

So what is it guys?

you can't have it both ways.......
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byke
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8/13/2015 10:19am
Seems pretty clear that immersing yourself in one type of riding and setup would result in more refinement than two very different types.
DC
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8/13/2015 10:20am Edited Date/Time 8/13/2015 10:21am
My opinion? So much emphasis on SX now -- October through May -- leaves little time to focus on testing and getting faster outdoors. It wasn't like that in the eighties when America was taking over; it started changing in the nineties with the rise of Jeremy McGrath.

Meanwhile, European riders spend very little time on SX tracks and they focus almost entirely on outdoor motocross. It's helped them catch back up in motocross, no doubt. And that's probably why some guys who come over here (Rattray, Tortelli, Chiodi, Albertyn) really struggle at first (or always) in supercross.

DC
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imoto34
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8/13/2015 10:32am
DC wrote:
My opinion? So much emphasis on SX now -- October through May -- leaves little time to focus on testing and getting faster outdoors. It wasn't...
My opinion? So much emphasis on SX now -- October through May -- leaves little time to focus on testing and getting faster outdoors. It wasn't like that in the eighties when America was taking over; it started changing in the nineties with the rise of Jeremy McGrath.

Meanwhile, European riders spend very little time on SX tracks and they focus almost entirely on outdoor motocross. It's helped them catch back up in motocross, no doubt. And that's probably why some guys who come over here (Rattray, Tortelli, Chiodi, Albertyn) really struggle at first (or always) in supercross.

DC
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do you even lift bro? Cause you are the man if you do
h&m_cycle
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8/13/2015 10:34am Edited Date/Time 8/13/2015 11:39am
Some of our guys over the last few years act like they would rather go to the dentist then moto...



The Shop

byke
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8/13/2015 10:37am
"Hanny". Tongue
Titan1
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8/13/2015 10:41am Edited Date/Time 8/13/2015 10:48am
What if the reason the Euro's are beatings Americans in MX has nothing to do with SX...what if they are just better at MX than American riders?

byke
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8/13/2015 10:47am Edited Date/Time 8/13/2015 10:47am
Well, "better" means something different over here versus over there. One could easily argue that "better" would include averages across both disciplines.
Titan1
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8/13/2015 10:48am
byke wrote:
Well, "better" means something different over here versus over there. One could easily argue that "better" would include averages across both disciplines.
I meant better at MX. (I will edit)
Bultaco
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8/13/2015 10:52am
If your goal is to make a living riding a dirt bike.....supercross is a big help. Otherwise I'd go with DC's answer.
byke
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8/13/2015 10:52am
It's still complicated, how would it be determined? Would US tracks be the reference, or Euro tracks? And then, to determine if US riders are better/worse than Euro riders, you wouldn't just look at who were first, you might look at how many US/Euro riders were in the top 10, or 20, or qualify, or... Basically, I don't think it can be determined, practically.
Motofinne
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8/13/2015 10:55am
Well wasn't SX one of the reasons US riders were superior to riders from Europe, Australia, Asia and Africa?

Why has that changed suddenly? Is it the fact that every mini rider in US, Europe, Australia, Asia and Africa grows up watching SX races and develop their skills that and that way gets better at MX also?
The Rock
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8/13/2015 10:57am
Great points in this thread.

As an old school person I point to the SX influence on our National tracks as a contributing factor to us getting gapped by the Euros. SX is here to say but there is nothing keeping us from having our tracks keep true to traditional MX roots.
GrapeApe
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8/13/2015 11:03am Edited Date/Time 8/13/2015 11:04am
I would approach it a different way - GP riders developed SX skills and evened the playing field. Look at how drastically their style has changed.
motomike137
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8/13/2015 11:04am
Back in the early years of SX it sharpened our riders technical skills and made them more aggressive while the desire to be great MXers was still the dominate factor. DC hit perfectly on why that doesn't apply anymore. The focus has really shifted to SX here plus for most the schedule is a never ending grind in the U.S. while the boys across the pond primarily focuson one thing with a more forgiving schedule on top of it.
Falcon
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8/13/2015 11:07am
It could be just the natural ebb and flow of circumstances. There's nothing magical about being born here; we simply have a deeper talent pool in general due to our population. That may not result in the absolute fastest riders anymore. At some point, I expect it will swing the other way and we'll be unstoppable again.
Julian
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8/13/2015 11:11am
bravo guys.

some thoughtful comments from Europe and the USA
loftyair
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8/13/2015 11:20am
Not a lot of Americans REALLY into mx like it used to be. Sx has taken over a lot because its so much easier to make money and save money(less bike repair). You have to be a real man to win outdoors, indoors just have some talent and luck and that's it. Oh Davey, less jumps outdoors please, jumps are for pussies.
8/13/2015 11:32am
This seems like a no brainer. MXGP rides motocross all year with a fairly easy schedule. U.S. Rides motocross for 4 months.

We haven't lost because we aren't fast enough, we've lost due to being inconsistent.

Riders in America will always have the larger skill set until they start running SX across the pond.
Juss
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8/13/2015 11:38am
byke wrote:
Well, "better" means something different over here versus over there. One could easily argue that "better" would include averages across both disciplines.
What's in your pipe this morning bro? If that was true why didn't Simpson win? He won the week b4 in Europe. As for Vilo the dude won his 2nd GP after being off not racing for a year.Let's see how Glen Helen plays out.
8/13/2015 11:41am Edited Date/Time 8/13/2015 11:43am
byke wrote:
Well, "better" means something different over here versus over there. One could easily argue that "better" would include averages across both disciplines.
Juss wrote:
What's in your pipe this morning bro? If that was true why didn't Simpson win? He won the week b4 in Europe. As for Vilo the...
What's in your pipe this morning bro? If that was true why didn't Simpson win? He won the week b4 in Europe. As for Vilo the dude won his 2nd GP after being off not racing for a year.Let's see how Glen Helen plays out.
LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing so youre point is ? remember Simpson is a sand specialist , he is a top 5 racer in MXGP, when they are all fit top 10 . The fact he won Lommel was cause its a deep sand track
Julian
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8/13/2015 11:48am
loftyair wrote:
Not a lot of Americans REALLY into mx like it used to be. Sx has taken over a lot because its so much easier to make...
Not a lot of Americans REALLY into mx like it used to be. Sx has taken over a lot because its so much easier to make money and save money(less bike repair). You have to be a real man to win outdoors, indoors just have some talent and luck and that's it. Oh Davey, less jumps outdoors please, jumps are for pussies.
is this a great time to be an mx fan or what ???

I am really surprised to see so much insight from the Americans, they are figuring this thing out really fast.

and yes, yes loftyair, you are ABSOLUTELY right, jumps are indeed WAY WAY too much in the way of the MX action these days.

I have posted again and again...... with the amount of jumping these days there is practically no time for the guys to just get down on the ground and RACE.

You can't race when you are just hanging around up in the air...... and these days they are just hanging around up there with all their whips and scrubs, it is just way too boring and causing way too many accidents.

I agree with you 100%, get the jumps out of MX and SX, get the riders back down and let them race against each other like Johnson, Ward, Hannah, etc.
Flatliner
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8/13/2015 12:03pm
loftyair wrote:
Not a lot of Americans REALLY into mx like it used to be. Sx has taken over a lot because its so much easier to make...
Not a lot of Americans REALLY into mx like it used to be. Sx has taken over a lot because its so much easier to make money and save money(less bike repair). You have to be a real man to win outdoors, indoors just have some talent and luck and that's it. Oh Davey, less jumps outdoors please, jumps are for pussies.
Julian wrote:
is this a great time to be an mx fan or what ??? I am really surprised to see so much insight from the Americans, they...
is this a great time to be an mx fan or what ???

I am really surprised to see so much insight from the Americans, they are figuring this thing out really fast.

and yes, yes loftyair, you are ABSOLUTELY right, jumps are indeed WAY WAY too much in the way of the MX action these days.

I have posted again and again...... with the amount of jumping these days there is practically no time for the guys to just get down on the ground and RACE.

You can't race when you are just hanging around up in the air...... and these days they are just hanging around up there with all their whips and scrubs, it is just way too boring and causing way too many accidents.

I agree with you 100%, get the jumps out of MX and SX, get the riders back down and let them race against each other like Johnson, Ward, Hannah, etc.
Not many guys at the pro level get hurt on jumps. They can all jump. A really rough section ( and some bad luck ) took tomac out for the season and shortened his prep for 16.
byke
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8/13/2015 12:05pm
byke wrote:
Well, "better" means something different over here versus over there. One could easily argue that "better" would include averages across both disciplines.
Juss wrote:
What's in your pipe this morning bro? If that was true why didn't Simpson win? He won the week b4 in Europe. As for Vilo the...
What's in your pipe this morning bro? If that was true why didn't Simpson win? He won the week b4 in Europe. As for Vilo the dude won his 2nd GP after being off not racing for a year.Let's see how Glen Helen plays out.
I don't follow. Simpson doesn't race supercross, therefore he's not likely to be "better" than Americans, provided we're using the hypothetical "both disciplines" (i.e. supercross and motocross) angle. And, your usage of Simpson supports my point from three posts below the one you quoted. In the same way that Simpson dominated at one race while really being a 5th place'ish guy, it essentially proves that there's no way to determine who's best, with just one race.
Mit12
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8/13/2015 12:07pm
Team USA has more MXoN wins and podiums than any other country. You can not win every time you go. The fact is there are great riders all over the world. This year we are sending the B team and we will be competative again like always. Remember the B team started the USA domination in the MXoN. Kick some ass Barcia, Web and Martin.
Motoxdoc
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8/13/2015 12:09pm
When done properly SX is a beautiful thing, and IMO it helps. When done wrongly....it hurts A LOT!
The Rock
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8/13/2015 12:15pm Edited Date/Time 8/13/2015 12:22pm
Julian wrote:
is this a great time to be an mx fan or what ??? I am really surprised to see so much insight from the Americans, they...
is this a great time to be an mx fan or what ???

I am really surprised to see so much insight from the Americans, they are figuring this thing out really fast.

and yes, yes loftyair, you are ABSOLUTELY right, jumps are indeed WAY WAY too much in the way of the MX action these days.

I have posted again and again...... with the amount of jumping these days there is practically no time for the guys to just get down on the ground and RACE.

You can't race when you are just hanging around up in the air...... and these days they are just hanging around up there with all their whips and scrubs, it is just way too boring and causing way too many accidents.

I agree with you 100%, get the jumps out of MX and SX, get the riders back down and let them race against each other like Johnson, Ward, Hannah, etc.
Great post. We are almost on the same page but I am fine with jumps in SX as that is the "nature of the beast" but am not fine with big jumps like at Hangtown, Glen Helen and other venues.

Regarding who is better what a pointless discussion. I'd rather talk about how much the moon weighs than waste time on the who is fastest, who is better, etc. but for sure the US riders have their hands full with racers from across the pond at the MXdN the last few years.
brimx153
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8/13/2015 12:17pm
This seems like a no brainer. MXGP rides motocross all year with a fairly easy schedule. U.S. Rides motocross for 4 months. We haven't lost because...
This seems like a no brainer. MXGP rides motocross all year with a fairly easy schedule. U.S. Rides motocross for 4 months.

We haven't lost because we aren't fast enough, we've lost due to being inconsistent.

Riders in America will always have the larger skill set until they start running SX across the pond.
disagree , for the last few year s the USA won the MXON , yous won because of consistency not speed . its been a good few years since the US rider had the 3 fastest rider s.
8/13/2015 12:18pm
The point they were making on the Pulp show is that the top american riders spend 70% of the year riding, testing and racing supercross and only 30% on motocross.
byke
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8/13/2015 12:19pm
Speaking of the pulp show...we're late!
8/13/2015 12:19pm
The point they were making on the Pulp show is that the top american riders spend 70% of the year riding, testing and racing supercross and...
The point they were making on the Pulp show is that the top american riders spend 70% of the year riding, testing and racing supercross and only 30% on motocross.
hasnt that been the case all those recent years ? or did the program changed ?

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