Some education needed on fast 50's

gharmon
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Edited Date/Time 7/23/2014 10:47pm
After going to the races this past weekend my grandson informed me that he wanted one of those orange bikes that "smoked" him on the track. He currently rides a 2014 CRF 50 and does okay with it.

Can someone please explain the differences on different 50's. I know that KTM has at least 2 (JR and SR) different ones. I know they have the Cobra's as well. Which one of the KTM's does the Cobra compete against?

He is 5 now and will be 6 in a couple months.

I always buy used bikes (i'm not taking the big depreciation hit) so what are the better years to be on the lookout for and which years do I avoid?

Thanks,

Gerald
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Tim507
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7/22/2014 8:31pm Edited Date/Time 7/22/2014 8:32pm
Used bikes are a good thing........IMHO spend your time and effort on developing your grandsons skills. When he and you are ready you both will know it and will make the correct decision.

My sons rode used bikes. Rory who today is a fast NW Pro raced a used PW, the a used CR 50 and for several years used KX 80's that I rebuilt a lot! For LL one year I built up a big wheel from used bikes a acquired.
mrquick
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7/22/2014 8:32pm
The crf50 is a yard bike not a race bike. KTM has a jr and a senior model. Both fast and designed for racing. The cobra has a jr model and a king...In my opinion the fastest mini's to hit the track. They are expensive and cobby but they get the job done.
MotoMalyDad
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7/22/2014 8:38pm Edited Date/Time 7/22/2014 8:39pm
No pun but the Honda to KTM is like apple and oranges . The Honda is a tank and will climb a tree but will beat him up on any bumps at speed. The KTM has a suspension , light and very fast. If he is on the bigger side, the KTM Pro Sr with the adventure springs which turns it into a PW 50 like without a hard hit ( this is back in 2006 ) so I am unsure if the newer 50's still have the washers or not. KTM Talk is a great place to ask a lot of questions on the 50 .

Congrats , it was a fun 2 or 3 years and a lot of money. He was great on the holeshots as I kept his KTM 50 like new. Never DNF a race.
FGR01
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7/22/2014 8:47pm
I have never owned any of the KTM 50's, but every one I know who has says get 2 right away. You will need them if you want to keep the kid riding on one while you work on the other.

The Shop

gharmon
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7/22/2014 8:49pm
Just for the record guys I am well aware of the CRF's ability's. He gets to get his feet wet racing in the same class as pw 50's. Just the other night they gated them with the ktm's and cobra's so he got to see first hand how fast they are. Now he want's one. lol
mrquick
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7/22/2014 8:56pm
Do they make you take the shifter off and leave the crf50 in second gear? That's how we had to do it when we raced the pw's.

Your son is the perfect age for a FAST 50.
ternst12
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7/23/2014 2:49am
There are Jr and Sr models for both. Cobra calls their Sr model a King. The Jrs have a smaller carb and lower seat height, less suspension. Jr class is usally 4-6 yrs old and Sr 7-8. KTM stopped making the Jr model in 09 I think. Their 08 and older models have the washer style clutches and are more to keep up, but are cheaper used. I would suggest an 09 if you can find one. Less clutch work. With Cobra's stay with 10 and up years. They can be found for a reasonable price. See if you can have him ride or at least sit on one of each, KTM and Cobra to see what fits best. We ran Cobra's for three years and had zero problems, keeping the gear oil and filter clean is very critical. Feel free to message me with any questions.
Mr. Ted
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7/23/2014 6:55am
The KTM Sr has an adjustment to lower the seat height, which is nice, so if he is in between or may out grow a Jr soon, then go for a Sr. I personally prefer the KTM's, but they are both fast. I have just found there is better support available for KTM's. Go to KTMtalk.com or Cobratalk.com for some really good info. And no you don't have to buy 2, but you will need to do a lot of routine maintenance if you want them to be reliable. Oil changes after every ride, for instance. Good luck and have fun!
Darryl916
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7/23/2014 7:32am
All the KTM mini dad's (granddads) are here:

http://www.ktmtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=885b927dcd973d9eaf506f2574435…


Be careful moving him from a smooth easy to ride CRF50 to a hard hitting light switch KTM too quickly. I'd recommend anything 09 and up. There was a major redesign in 09. The power can be smoothed out thru some clutch shim work but they won't last long with a lot of slip. But if it hits too hard kids that aren't ready develop a on/off/on/off throttle habit that eats up the clutches too. It's a different animal.

The KTM forum and just diving in and getting one will be the best teachers. Good luck! Dm me any specific questions you have.

mgifracing
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7/23/2014 7:44am
Like what was said above an 09 or newer ktm will be good and parts are way easier to get than cobra. My son went from a ttr 50 with an 88 kit to an air cooled ktm adventure and then to a senior. If you can find an air cooled adv. that would be good switch but you will be doing clutch maintnence.
gharmon
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7/23/2014 8:02am
mrquick wrote:
Do they make you take the shifter off and leave the crf50 in second gear? That's how we had to do it when we raced the...
Do they make you take the shifter off and leave the crf50 in second gear? That's how we had to do it when we raced the pw's.

Your son is the perfect age for a FAST 50.
NO but when he first started racing I did it anyway. It seemed like he always fell on the left side and when he did it would shift the bike into third and he couldn't hardly go after that so I started removing the shifter. The problem with that is he can't crank it while it's in gear and if he wrecked he was stuck til I could run over there.
clmartin22
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7/23/2014 8:03am
If you are going to be doing a lot of racing make sure you go with a bike that fits his age. As ternst12 mentioned above KTM and Cobra both make JR and SR models. 4-6 is the Junior and what you will definitely want to get. Even the junior is a rocketship in the hands of a good rider. The HP to weight ratio of these little bikes is crazy, sames goes for the new 65's that both companies are making. Both make really good bikes. Cobra has a dealer network and is made in the USA. More than likely you have a dealer in your area. You will need help regardless of which brand you go with. The clutches on these bad boys take time to master. Join cobratalk.com and ktmtalk.com and soak up all the info you can. Not sure where in Alabama you are located but Lakehill Trackside out of Tennessee is at a lot of races in MS and AL. Doug can definitely help you with Cobras. We spent 2 years on 50's and now ride 65's and 85's. Its much easier as the bikes go up in size. BTW, we started on a CRF50 as well. After our first race 4 years ago my soon immediately told us he wanted a 2-stroke. We found a KTM then got a Cobra and still ride Cobra's today, but you can't go wrong either way. My suggestion is try them both. They are different and some kids prefer the Cobra, others the KTM. Whatever he is the most comfortable on is what he will go the fastest on usually.
gharmon
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7/23/2014 8:13am
Thanks guys for the info. The plan is to keep him on the CRF for the rest of this year. He is still short for a 5 yo (45"). More maintenance is all I need now. WE have 4 big bikes to maintain and I work three different jobs, not sure if I need any additional shit to maintain. Oh well, we will see I guess.

Again, thanks for the info.
MXD
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7/23/2014 8:14am
Sounds like my little guy is staying on his CRF50 till he's ready for a 250F. Laughing
dsmith
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7/23/2014 8:25am
why not something like a kx 65?..i know its a lot of bike ......cheaper....just restrict it...he wont be on it forever...
newmann
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7/23/2014 8:27am
We had a 2001 KTM SX Sr. Crazy fast little bikes. When we bought it, the dealer told me to change the oil after every 15 minutes of ride time. I had to find out the hard way that he spoke the truth. As the oil gets dirty from the clutch , the clutch debris gets in the clutch spring washer stacks and make the clutch not engage. Take it apart (simple job) clean and restack the washers and all was good. Keep spare washers and clutch shoes on hand. Oh, and change that oil after every 15 minutes of ride time! Smile
gharmon
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7/23/2014 8:35am
dsmith wrote:
why not something like a kx 65?..i know its a lot of bike ......cheaper....just restrict it...he wont be on it forever...
I wished he was big enough. He barely touched the ground on a CRF 50.

I've have seen people mention these type things before. Skip the 50's all together, buy two of them, etc. It certainly look like people are giving you the warnings. You know the same ones our friends tell us about getting married but we never listen anyway and do the stupid shit. LOL Life lessons I guess!!
Mr. Ted
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7/23/2014 8:47am
We went from a CRF50 to a CRF70 to a KTM Pro Sr to a KTM65 in about a year. As said above the power is definitely more, but above all else the suspension is so superior on either the KTM or Cobra compared to the CRF's. And that is really important when you have the power these little bikes have.
ccr50
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7/23/2014 8:54am
Important to know that beginning with the 2013 KTM 50, they no longer have the shim clutch which is what the maintenance heavy part of either the Cobra or KTM 50 bikes. The new KTM clutch has suspension type clickers to adjust it on a three shoe type system and is for the most part maintenance free and more adjustable.

If you are looking for minimal maintenance, go for 2013 and newer KTM 50. I did so for the exact same reason and it worked out well. I replaced the clutch twice in about 18 months of owning the bike and never had to do any orther clutch maintenence on it. Furthermore, though the KTMs are expensive you will get your money back when you sell if you maintain them well. I purchased for about 4 grand brand new and sold 18 months later for 3 grand.
MiSledder
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7/23/2014 9:09am
buy a Cobra King/Sr or a KTM50 Sr if he's going to be 6 soon, 09 or newer, force him to get use to it, it wont take long, have fun
Matt Fisher
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7/23/2014 10:05am
dsmith wrote:
why not something like a kx 65?..i know its a lot of bike ......cheaper....just restrict it...he wont be on it forever...
gharmon wrote:
I wished he was big enough. He barely touched the ground on a CRF 50. I've have seen people mention these type things before. Skip the...
I wished he was big enough. He barely touched the ground on a CRF 50.

I've have seen people mention these type things before. Skip the 50's all together, buy two of them, etc. It certainly look like people are giving you the warnings. You know the same ones our friends tell us about getting married but we never listen anyway and do the stupid shit. LOL Life lessons I guess!!
Not that he's ready, but the 2000/2001 KX65 was smaller than the 02+ models. Different frame and forks. If you shave the seat and drop the suspension down, it's really short. Like KTM Pro Jr short.

The lack of you needing to wrench on it all the time would be appreciated, however, it's still 120 pounds, not 80 pounds like the racing 50's.
Tracktor
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7/23/2014 10:07am
We have been on all three 50 brands over the years and they can all be shit or all be great depending on maintenance. If you do preventative maintenance you will be fine and rarely have issues. if you ride it like you stole it and don't take care of them they all will have issues. My youngest was on Cobras and we ran his 2011 that I bought used for a season with no issues then sold it. A year later the new owner called me raving on what a great reliable bike it was. if he is small start on a JR sized bike so he get's used to the clutch hitting. We ran an IRP Stryker for awhile when my boy first got on King's and it was great. if you are racing don't waste time with the thumpers they are not gonna keep up no matter what you do...............
kzizok
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7/23/2014 12:09pm
dsmith wrote:
why not something like a kx 65?..i know its a lot of bike ......cheaper....just restrict it...he wont be on it forever...
gharmon wrote:
I wished he was big enough. He barely touched the ground on a CRF 50. I've have seen people mention these type things before. Skip the...
I wished he was big enough. He barely touched the ground on a CRF 50.

I've have seen people mention these type things before. Skip the 50's all together, buy two of them, etc. It certainly look like people are giving you the warnings. You know the same ones our friends tell us about getting married but we never listen anyway and do the stupid shit. LOL Life lessons I guess!!
Gharmon, I can tell that you have seen the warning signs and perhaps today things are better than the 50's of six years ago. However, if I had to do it all over again I would skip the 50's all together and wait till he can touch on a 60. I had plenty of time, ability, etc. and would never go through the stress, money, and heartache of all that competitive 50 racing brings with it. Just my .02 cents though. All I am saying is, please take a minute to consider the "life lesson" thing because there won't really be a lot of LOL going on.
early
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7/23/2014 12:31pm
I have 2 questions.

1. Mr Gharmon, its great you are so active in your grandsons life. You say he races in the crf/pw 50 class, does he clean house in that class or is still getting a handle on the fundamentals of riding? Is he ready to move up to a faster bike?

2. Of course it depends on the child but is it a good idea to put a 5/6 year old on a 2 stroke rocket or is it better and safer to restrict their speed with a less capable bike at that age?
Hallzilla
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7/23/2014 12:50pm
Get him a KTM 50sx SR and throw the junior clutch in it. This will tame the power until he is ready for the "HIT" . The only difference in the clutch is the JR is spring loaded. The SR's are designed for the clutch to engage at 8000 rpm's. I know this will work for the 02-08 models, I'm sure the newer models are probably the same with this trick. But you will still have to wrench on it routinely, but with the JR clutch there is no Shimming to deal with. These bikes are so much lighter than a crf50. I did both and wish i had just bypassed the honda completely.
ONCE again if you are not into wrenching, then stay with the crf because they are gas and go bikes.
sc961
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7/23/2014 1:58pm Edited Date/Time 7/23/2014 1:59pm
Any 2 stroke 50cc bike takes a ton of maintenance.

Find out how you local class structure works before you buy anything. Check with your district 50 rep to get a break down on classes and bikes allowed per class.

For example, in MN a KTM50SR is only legal in the 7-8 premix class. PW50's are legal in all classes, but not particularly competitive in some.

Since you're rider is going to be 6, you could get the smaller KTM50 and be legal for the 4-6 and possibly other classes depending on local rules and class layout..

Do your local tracks have anything available in the multi speed or 4 stroke classes? Wouldn't be running against much faster bikes in those.

One other note, some areas allow only stock machines in the 50 classes.
tombugg
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7/23/2014 8:41pm
Don't waste your time buying a KTM.. IT will be the same story.. Dad, I want one of those yellow bikes that just smoked me.. Trust me, been there. Buy a Cobra and take care of it. They are the best race 50s out there. It is undisputable. Just check the results from the last 10 yrs of any major nationals.
enketchum
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7/23/2014 8:57pm
DEMONDAVE wrote:
if you want parts / bikes or just plain good ole advice go directly here , Don O' is good people .
http://www.paxracingstore.com/
Wow, I was thinking of Don the other day for some reason. I haven't talked to him for a really long time. I hope he is doing ok....

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