Posts
845
Joined
8/28/2007
Location
AL
US
Edited Date/Time
1/27/2012 4:47pm
You have die hard 2 strokers, most are the older guys racing, because thats what their used to. Some people have had good luck with 4 strokes(mine went 4 years, till the day I sold it with ZERO problems), others have had horrible luck(which cost them ALOT of cash.) The way I see it, everyone wants it cc for cc, how is that possible, when they make power completely different? Even if its cc for cc, isnt it still apples to oranges? Example...I was watching a road racing event on speed the other evening. The top 5 were....Yamaha R6, Suzuki GSXR 600, ZX6....and then two that I thought was weird....you had an Aprillia RSV 1000 and the new Buell 1250(?)
That got me thinking about the 2 versus 4. It was virutally dead even. But it was in how they made the power that made it even. I was amazed seeing little inline 4 600's running with 1000 cc v twins. Its in how they make the power. CC for CC, the v twins would have been DESTROYED. So what solves this fight, you say cc for cc, but does that really make it EVEN? You say straight up, if there is any advantage for either, how is it straight up?
So we can do this.....either keep it all 4 stroke, all 2 stroke, or make a 2 stroke compariable in output to that of a 4 stroke with the same output. It will never be CC for CC and be even if powers made differently. This argument reminds me of chevy vs ford, no matter what, you will have people who's died hard to either chevy or ford and won't switch brand no matter what. This thread wasnt bashing either. Though I'm sure the attack will be on me(here comes race in 3....2.....1...) So bash away!
That got me thinking about the 2 versus 4. It was virutally dead even. But it was in how they made the power that made it even. I was amazed seeing little inline 4 600's running with 1000 cc v twins. Its in how they make the power. CC for CC, the v twins would have been DESTROYED. So what solves this fight, you say cc for cc, but does that really make it EVEN? You say straight up, if there is any advantage for either, how is it straight up?
So we can do this.....either keep it all 4 stroke, all 2 stroke, or make a 2 stroke compariable in output to that of a 4 stroke with the same output. It will never be CC for CC and be even if powers made differently. This argument reminds me of chevy vs ford, no matter what, you will have people who's died hard to either chevy or ford and won't switch brand no matter what. This thread wasnt bashing either. Though I'm sure the attack will be on me(here comes race in 3....2.....1...) So bash away!
There was an article floating around here about a company who talked of making a 450cc two stroke that put out a horsepower curve comparable to the 450cc four stroke. What was cool was that 2-stroke made what appeared to be about 50% more torque. And, there'd be little doubt the smoker would be less complex and lighter.
Until we get those rule changes to even the playing field, the arguments will continue. And, it appears the manufacturers are in no rush to provide less expensive 2-strokes to the marketplace.
Well no I take that back, I do get it. It's because we, as the consumers, bought into the 4-stroke craze and helped shut the 2-stroke sales down. Hopefully now that we have realized what we have done, there can be room for advanced, fast, smooth and expensive 4-stroke racers, and light, nimble, simple, exciting, and less costly 2-stroke racers. In a dream world
horsepower = torque x RPM
RPM = wear
wear = $$$
The Shop
There are loads of opinions on this board, most of which are able to voice them in an intelligent manner. You've had maybe 4 intelligent posts (yes, this could be considered one of them), while the remaining 430+ have been less than worthless. Maybe if you changed that ratio, you'd be taken seriously. But I don't think you care, instead you're here just to be a pain in the ass. That's your choice (until Guy clicks you).
As for your post, there's never going to be a way to make it 100% even, but if it fosters better racing, lowers the cost and sound level, while increasing the number of participants, then we all win. There's no doubt that going cc for cc in the small engines will result in no 4 strokes in those classes- they cannot compete. In the open class (251-500), I actually think that thumpers would outnumber the pingers because HP is not an issue at that displacement, negating the 2T advantage. In the 250 class, there would be benefits and advantages for both. The only way to find out is to run them, as they have successfully, in the amateur ranks.
I've been thinking about your big displacement theory and I'm wondering what a 300cc or 350cc 2 stroke would be like against the 450F. You make a lot of sense about useable power but I think weight plays a big role in things as well.
I'm still faster on a 250 2 stroke but I think it's mainly because I'm not strong enough to manhandle the 450F or the torque it provides.
I may favor a 2 stroker over a 4, but it's all about gettin' on that bad motorscooter and ride.
Ride to live; Live to ride.
Realistically, I don't expect any big rule changes to keep the 2 stroke alive. Not to go all "conspiracy theory", but it's pretty obvious the OEMs want them dead. Less parts, less failure points, less need for professional repairs, etc. I think it's a pretty short-sighted business direction they have going, but we shall see how it all plays out.
Some of the best times of my life were on 2 strokes when I was younger, and today My 450's are just as fun to ride..
xr 50, ttr 125's, YZ125's, Cr250's, and now crf 450's.. they were and are still all fun in my book.
It will never be an argument worth having because I believe it is all personal preference.. Put all 40 guys in next week's 450 main on 250 smokers, and we would still have the same guys getting top 10.. it would just sound and smell a lot better!
As for the weight issue of a 4 stroke why are some of you pushing to get a 450 v twin in competition? The bikes are already overweight as it is and adding an extra cylinder would only increase the weight issues.
Its been proven in the amateur ranks that the 250F can and does beat the 250T and vice versa. So do we put the 450's in an "open" class that we do not have and watch them go the way of the old 500's? Do we had a 125 class where there is NO 4 strokes that are able to compete cc for cc? Do we just have one class where 4 stroke are alive, which is the 250 class structure you guys want? The closest to even, is the structure now, yes bikes are not the same, but again that goes back to how they make their power, but as far as dyno results etc. they are nearly the same.
So it looks to me that until they make the power the same, there will never be a day where they are even without one side bitching about the other. Started with 4 strokes, 2 strokes came along and sent the 4's packin, new technology came along and sent the 2 strokes packin. Now we are back to square one. What needs to happen, which won't(wishful thinking I'm sure by ALL of us) is that a completely new bikes be made that display the same characteristics on a track, not just dyno results and output.
This bike is lighter and smaller
Than this bike ?
screw that making allowances.
run 'em straight up and get rid of the loser............................
only 2 stroke left in my house is a weed wacker/trimmer... and that is getting replaced with a honda 4 stroke version when it dies.
Bummer, seizure and damage to my 4 stroke motor = $2874. 98
Bummer, seizure and damage to my 2 stroke motor = $589.76
Bummer.
What to do with $2300.00 American ? ALL this !
'74 CB360 Honda, five tickets to "Hangover", a Noleen YZ360 basket case, three and a half cases of Yamalube, two gallons of WD-40, a Jofa mouthguard, a seven oz. bottle of hai-karate spritzer (say it with a lisp), a cigar box of assorted metric heim-joints, two stuffed gila monsters, anonymous large hooker of unknown origin, dowel pin (3), hoof print, girlie magazine, three live rounds, twin pipes for a KLX-110, twelve pack of Sierra Nevada Summerfest (yuk!), crappy grips for a mountain bike,marginally molested magazines of manifested moto-memorabilia , Gold's soothing foot powder and a bottle of hooch.
It's not the price of the bikes, it's the rebuilds.
Pit Row
"...four-strokes are only competitive because they were given an enormous displacement advantage back in 1998."
MXA. 3/11/2008
the aprilla (if it's a 2 cylinder) got banned by AMA amatuer a few years ago. for what reason who the hell knows. so to compare them in a race on a track it can't be AMA?
hell maybe this is a rule that needs to go. not sure why that and the two wheel drive rules got passed a couple of years ago but smells to me like some one didn't want to have to compete with progress......guess thumpers are all they want to make.
but oh hell no.......that would be another million threads on how unfair two cylinders are verses one. blah blah blah. Amatuer racing rules for "strokes is fine." sooner then later they won't be building many or any 2 smokes and well then the point is mute.
give us something else to chat about into the next century.
Look back at the beginning of this decade. Most riders were very reluctant to make the switch . The privateers were all switching though, as the increased displacement gave them an equal playing field against the factory bikes. Very few riders are capable of running a 450 to its max.. When Kevin windham showed up at the nationals in 03, Guys like Carmicheal have been quoted as saying they had to switch simply b/c the 250 wasnt as fast on some of the long straights at a few tracks. Even in SX, most of the riders continued to ride the smokers till the 06 season, when the 2 strokes started being phased out by the mfg's, so naturally they are going to put their riders on the machinery they want to sell.
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