Schoolboy 2 class (MX sports)

MotoX85
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4/10/2014 7:13pm
Also, this has nothing to do with the Honda CRF150, I am glad it can run as many classes that it can, we have some close friends that run them.

Before someone flames for Honda bashing, this is simply that my 13 yr. old son is too big for a supermini, he has a 125 2T and wanted a 250 2T instead of a 4 stroke, after talking with most of the local pros, most make the night show of SX and some mains, ALL said to keep him on the 2 stroke, it will make him a better rider. One pro even told me his biggest regret in racing was not racing the 2 stroke longer.

Well with a 125 and 250 2 stroke, if we go to any qualifiers, we can only run 1 class competitively for a Youth rider, because lets face it, the 125, even though finely tuned by JMS performance will not keep up with a "also" finely tuned 250F. So that leaves me with going across the country, paying a lot, and basically sitting all weekend to run 1 class.........2 motos. At 13, I do not want to put him in the C class yet as I do not want him to have to run the Amateur regionals instead of Youth.

We really like going to the qualifiers, chasing the bigger gates, hopefully getting to the regional as a good quality gate filler but we will not be hitting very many if we can only run 1 class.

Since he is 13, you can see my dilemma for the next couple years. He wants to run 2 strokes, local pro recommended, and I do not want him running in the C class just yet.

So this has nothing to do with negative about the CRF150.


Is that nicer Guy B?
yanks_178
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4/10/2014 7:38pm
MotoX85 wrote:
Also, this has nothing to do with the Honda CRF150, I am glad it can run as many classes that it can, we have some close...
Also, this has nothing to do with the Honda CRF150, I am glad it can run as many classes that it can, we have some close friends that run them.

Before someone flames for Honda bashing, this is simply that my 13 yr. old son is too big for a supermini, he has a 125 2T and wanted a 250 2T instead of a 4 stroke, after talking with most of the local pros, most make the night show of SX and some mains, ALL said to keep him on the 2 stroke, it will make him a better rider. One pro even told me his biggest regret in racing was not racing the 2 stroke longer.

Well with a 125 and 250 2 stroke, if we go to any qualifiers, we can only run 1 class competitively for a Youth rider, because lets face it, the 125, even though finely tuned by JMS performance will not keep up with a "also" finely tuned 250F. So that leaves me with going across the country, paying a lot, and basically sitting all weekend to run 1 class.........2 motos. At 13, I do not want to put him in the C class yet as I do not want him to have to run the Amateur regionals instead of Youth.

We really like going to the qualifiers, chasing the bigger gates, hopefully getting to the regional as a good quality gate filler but we will not be hitting very many if we can only run 1 class.

Since he is 13, you can see my dilemma for the next couple years. He wants to run 2 strokes, local pro recommended, and I do not want him running in the C class just yet.

So this has nothing to do with negative about the CRF150.


Is that nicer Guy B?
This is exactly how my kid lost interest in Motocross and found stick and ball sports instead. At 13 he was too big for a supermini but not strong enough for a 250 4 stroke. He rode a 250 2T but had to race in the 450 because of our track rules.
scott_nz
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4/10/2014 7:41pm
MotoX85 wrote:
Also, this has nothing to do with the Honda CRF150, I am glad it can run as many classes that it can, we have some close...
Also, this has nothing to do with the Honda CRF150, I am glad it can run as many classes that it can, we have some close friends that run them.

Before someone flames for Honda bashing, this is simply that my 13 yr. old son is too big for a supermini, he has a 125 2T and wanted a 250 2T instead of a 4 stroke, after talking with most of the local pros, most make the night show of SX and some mains, ALL said to keep him on the 2 stroke, it will make him a better rider. One pro even told me his biggest regret in racing was not racing the 2 stroke longer.

Well with a 125 and 250 2 stroke, if we go to any qualifiers, we can only run 1 class competitively for a Youth rider, because lets face it, the 125, even though finely tuned by JMS performance will not keep up with a "also" finely tuned 250F. So that leaves me with going across the country, paying a lot, and basically sitting all weekend to run 1 class.........2 motos. At 13, I do not want to put him in the C class yet as I do not want him to have to run the Amateur regionals instead of Youth.

We really like going to the qualifiers, chasing the bigger gates, hopefully getting to the regional as a good quality gate filler but we will not be hitting very many if we can only run 1 class.

Since he is 13, you can see my dilemma for the next couple years. He wants to run 2 strokes, local pro recommended, and I do not want him running in the C class just yet.

So this has nothing to do with negative about the CRF150.


Is that nicer Guy B?
there are plenty of classes to run him in on a 250 2t, why do you want the rules changed just for your kid?
burn1986
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4/10/2014 7:59pm
It got very quiet out there.

The Shop

DC
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4/11/2014 3:20am Edited Date/Time 4/11/2014 3:22am
MotoX85, the rules at Loretta Lynn's differ at times from local races because what works at a local level is not often the best way forward for a national-caliber event. For instance, riders are limited to two classes at the finals because they are three twenty-minute motos, and it's not fair for one kid with four bikes to take up four spots in the championship finals. Local races have been struggling with entries and the AMA Congress is trying to make racing as open and inexpensive as possible, but sometimes those rules create other conundrums.

As far as putting a 13-year-old on a 250cc two-stroke, you are doing that because of his size -- he's the exception to the vast majority of 13-year-olds. So if we allow one big kid to go out there on a 250cc two-stroke, we're going to see smaller kids that aren't big enough for those bikes out there because they can't compete with a YZ 250 two-stroke or KTM 250 SX on their 125s. It fixes your problem, but it creates more problems for others that should not be racing 250 two-strokes because they're too small.

If your son is already too big for a 125 at 13, it sounds like it won't be long before he is ready for a 250F.

And Burn, I didn't get very quiet on the topic, I was in bed.

DC
MX Sports
Mr. Info
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4/11/2014 7:22am
And to answer another question in this information gathering the Husky and the TM are not legal in AMA/FIM Supercross because they did not apply for Homologation. I do not know if they have applied for the Outdoors. They are legal to run at all the other AMA events like Enduro X, GNCC and AMA Big 6 and other AMA events. I would think this will change as I hear Mike Brown wants to ride a few outdoor Nationals on his Husky. TM has no plans to run the outdoors as far as the last importer knows.
burn1986
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4/11/2014 7:27am
That's a pretty big word Mr. Info - Homologation. What does it mean?
burn1986
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4/11/2014 11:01am Edited Date/Time 4/11/2014 11:02am
Mr. Info wrote:
And to answer another question in this information gathering the Husky and the TM are not legal in AMA/FIM Supercross because they did not apply for...
And to answer another question in this information gathering the Husky and the TM are not legal in AMA/FIM Supercross because they did not apply for Homologation. I do not know if they have applied for the Outdoors. They are legal to run at all the other AMA events like Enduro X, GNCC and AMA Big 6 and other AMA events. I would think this will change as I hear Mike Brown wants to ride a few outdoor Nationals on his Husky. TM has no plans to run the outdoors as far as the last importer knows.
Does the Husky and TM have to be homologated for FIM Supercrosses in Europe? What's the process? Good info.
scott_nz
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4/11/2014 11:27am Edited Date/Time 4/11/2014 11:27am
Mr. Info wrote:
And to answer another question in this information gathering the Husky and the TM are not legal in AMA/FIM Supercross because they did not apply for...
And to answer another question in this information gathering the Husky and the TM are not legal in AMA/FIM Supercross because they did not apply for Homologation. I do not know if they have applied for the Outdoors. They are legal to run at all the other AMA events like Enduro X, GNCC and AMA Big 6 and other AMA events. I would think this will change as I hear Mike Brown wants to ride a few outdoor Nationals on his Husky. TM has no plans to run the outdoors as far as the last importer knows.
burn1986 wrote:
Does the Husky and TM have to be homologated for FIM Supercrosses in Europe? What's the process? Good info.
their is no production rule in Europe, so you do not have to homologate anything,
hillbilly
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4/11/2014 1:16pm
Motox85,

How did your son do last year at Loretta??
Zracer
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4/11/2014 1:55pm
Can you imagine 15-20 years ago discussing putting a 13 year old on a 250 2 stroke at Lorettas? There are some real problems this sport needs to figure out at all levels.
Mr. Info
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4/11/2014 4:23pm
And just because its called the AMA/FIM Supercross here does not mean the FIM rules are used here. Not every bike is legal. I know becasue I asked John G the FIM Ref.
MotoX85
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4/11/2014 10:54pm
hillbilly wrote:
Motox85,

How did your son do last year at Loretta??
We didn't make it last year Hillbilly, he was injured 7 months of the year with non MX related injuries. He has never made it to Lorettas Hillbilly, but that doesn't mean we don't like to try. How did YOU do at Lorettas? we already know how you did driving in Atlanta. Would you like to make another derogatory comment about my 13 yr old child?

Davey, thanks for your reply but my first thing I will say back, is your logic makes no sense with my son not being able to ride a 2 stroke at 212 lbs but he is capable of competing on a 240 lbs 4 stroke. I do however understand that the rules cannot and will not change for only me but I know of several riders that would prefer to ride the 2 stroke 250 as opposed to the 4 but do not because the MX sports rules do not allow it.

I also realize that you can only race 2 classes at the national, but this again has nothing to do with allowing 250 2 strokes to race with 250 4 strokes when they are allowed in the C, B and A classes at the national.

Also my son is not overly big, he is 5'6", 150 lbs, he just doesn't feel comfortable on a Supermini. He has a $10000 Yamaha superminin with everything on it to make it for larger riders and still cannot get comfortable. And when I watch him rider it, I agree. He is also not too big for a 125, we own one of those also and he competes in schoolboy 1 class with it.

He just wants to ride a 2 stroke 250 instead of a 4.

Also local turn outs have been hurting cause normal, average families CANNOT cover the cost of a grenaded four stroke. This is undeniable. The debate on whether 2 or 4 is better and all that drama will never stop the fact that little Johnnies family cannot cover a $3000 price tag on a blown up 250F. Not to mention the more injuries they cause because now every D rider has the power at his right wrist to jump anything they can point there bikes at. You had to earn and gain skill on a 125 if you wanted to jump big jumps, not anymore.

However after today this topic is null and void, for myself anyway, because I bought him a 250F today so we can play the game.

Good thing my son is not mowing grass to pay for racing as he now owns $20,000 worth of motorcycles. But I bet you the 250F sits and we only ride it at the races cause I have to constantly pry him off the 250 2 stroke.
hillbilly
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4/12/2014 5:55am
hillbilly wrote:
Motox85,

How did your son do last year at Loretta??
MotoX85 wrote:
We didn't make it last year Hillbilly, he was injured 7 months of the year with non MX related injuries. He has never made it to...
We didn't make it last year Hillbilly, he was injured 7 months of the year with non MX related injuries. He has never made it to Lorettas Hillbilly, but that doesn't mean we don't like to try. How did YOU do at Lorettas? we already know how you did driving in Atlanta. Would you like to make another derogatory comment about my 13 yr old child?

Davey, thanks for your reply but my first thing I will say back, is your logic makes no sense with my son not being able to ride a 2 stroke at 212 lbs but he is capable of competing on a 240 lbs 4 stroke. I do however understand that the rules cannot and will not change for only me but I know of several riders that would prefer to ride the 2 stroke 250 as opposed to the 4 but do not because the MX sports rules do not allow it.

I also realize that you can only race 2 classes at the national, but this again has nothing to do with allowing 250 2 strokes to race with 250 4 strokes when they are allowed in the C, B and A classes at the national.

Also my son is not overly big, he is 5'6", 150 lbs, he just doesn't feel comfortable on a Supermini. He has a $10000 Yamaha superminin with everything on it to make it for larger riders and still cannot get comfortable. And when I watch him rider it, I agree. He is also not too big for a 125, we own one of those also and he competes in schoolboy 1 class with it.

He just wants to ride a 2 stroke 250 instead of a 4.

Also local turn outs have been hurting cause normal, average families CANNOT cover the cost of a grenaded four stroke. This is undeniable. The debate on whether 2 or 4 is better and all that drama will never stop the fact that little Johnnies family cannot cover a $3000 price tag on a blown up 250F. Not to mention the more injuries they cause because now every D rider has the power at his right wrist to jump anything they can point there bikes at. You had to earn and gain skill on a 125 if you wanted to jump big jumps, not anymore.

However after today this topic is null and void, for myself anyway, because I bought him a 250F today so we can play the game.

Good thing my son is not mowing grass to pay for racing as he now owns $20,000 worth of motorcycles. But I bet you the 250F sits and we only ride it at the races cause I have to constantly pry him off the 250 2 stroke.
I was just askin'.

But now you've gone all storbeck on me.

Carry on.
MotoX85
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4/14/2014 3:33pm
Storbeck huh!
Piston Slap
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4/14/2014 5:44pm
MotoX85,

I read the thread from when you started it....I understand your frustration. . . the rules are the rules and aren't likely gonna change anytime soon. Sorry for your predicament bro.

I also thought Hillbilly was just asking how your boy did.......not trying to slam you or your family.

You did kinda Storbeck him . . .LaughingLaughingLaughing

Peace man and good luck with the racing, we all wanna see the young'uns do good!!
PS
JoJmoto
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4/14/2014 7:48pm
I agree a 13 year old has no business on a 250 2 stroke... I allowed my then 14 year old ride mine but was not comfortable with allowing this... He did ok for a few laps but would soon tire due to the weight and brute power these bikes have. I made him stick to the 125 for a year and a half.. at 170lbs... We just moved to the 250f and I see improvements already...

Bottom line is, I think the rules in place are good, even though on one hand it was bad for us however, on the other, it was safer for us.
MotoX85
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4/15/2014 6:01am
JoJmoto wrote:
I agree a 13 year old has no business on a 250 2 stroke... I allowed my then 14 year old ride mine but was not...
I agree a 13 year old has no business on a 250 2 stroke... I allowed my then 14 year old ride mine but was not comfortable with allowing this... He did ok for a few laps but would soon tire due to the weight and brute power these bikes have. I made him stick to the 125 for a year and a half.. at 170lbs... We just moved to the 250f and I see improvements already...

Bottom line is, I think the rules in place are good, even though on one hand it was bad for us however, on the other, it was safer for us.
You are entitled to your opinion but mine rides the wheels off of his 250 2 stroke. There are also two other local riders (13yr olds) that will smoke the B class locally on theirs. Also you do know that a 250F is about 25 lbs heavier than a 250 2 stroke right. Your weight comment does not hold water. A YZ250 2t (I think 212lb) is only about 15 lbs heavier than a YZ125 (195 lbs) 250F about 240 lbs.

I actually do not know what storbeck (ing) is so I guess you''ll have to fill me in.

Also by the way, picked up a 2014 250F yesterday (cause you have to follow the shepherd if you want to graze with the sheep). Very nice bike so far, just got to ride it in the yard but lots of power. He still says he prefers is 2 stroke though, I told him he better get use to it or else!!!!! lol
CCMX
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4/15/2014 6:24am
Storbecks are a millionaire oil family from San Antonio, Tx. They would show up at all the amateur nationals in the early 80's with a rig that would rival most pro efforts now days. Danny & Dale, cowboy hats, Copenhagen, and 15 bikes each, stock and mod. all brand new. Hope that helps.
MotoX85
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4/15/2014 6:31am
K, got ya. Far from a storbeck here but what ever hillbilly said. I have seen a renegade rig pulling a stacker trailer pull up to Crossroads mx and unload 2 PW50s and a BMW though.
steveada
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4/15/2014 6:31am
If you want to ride schoolboy 2 get a 150sx or put a big bore on your yz125. If he rides a 2 stroke well he will do better on the 150 2 stroke than on a 250 4 stroke. The reality of the schoolboy 2 class is that if you are not running times with the top B riders and A riders, you are not going to be competitive no matter what bike you are riding, so put him on a bike he is comfortable with and he will do the best he possibly can.
Gringoe
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4/15/2014 6:33am
JoJmoto wrote:
I agree a 13 year old has no business on a 250 2 stroke... I allowed my then 14 year old ride mine but was not...
I agree a 13 year old has no business on a 250 2 stroke... I allowed my then 14 year old ride mine but was not comfortable with allowing this... He did ok for a few laps but would soon tire due to the weight and brute power these bikes have. I made him stick to the 125 for a year and a half.. at 170lbs... We just moved to the 250f and I see improvements already...

Bottom line is, I think the rules in place are good, even though on one hand it was bad for us however, on the other, it was safer for us.
I've seen your kid ride and I'd feel a lot better with him on a 125 too... Some kids can handle them Cool
4/15/2014 7:29am Edited Date/Time 4/15/2014 8:03am
There is such a huge difference in height/weight from 13-17 year old kids. Some at 13 are big enough to safely handle a 250 2T, and then Some at 17 aren't big enough and can't safely get on a 250 2stroke without putting themselves in danger. Good call to not allow 250 2T in the schoolboy 2.
hillbilly
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4/15/2014 7:36am
MotoX85 wrote:
K, got ya. Far from a storbeck here but what ever hillbilly said. I have seen a renegade rig pulling a stacker trailer pull up to...
K, got ya. Far from a storbeck here but what ever hillbilly said. I have seen a renegade rig pulling a stacker trailer pull up to Crossroads mx and unload 2 PW50s and a BMW though.
Storbeck landed on RJ at gatorback ending his racing.
nytsmaC
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4/15/2014 7:38am
According to MXA's scales:

2014 YZ250 218lbs
2014 YZ250F 221lbs

I'm as pro 2-stroke as they come, but let's not exaggerate the weight differences, it effects credibility. A 250f with an aftermarket exhaust would weigh the same as a 250 smoker and by all means should be easier for any 13 year old to ride.
MotoX85
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4/15/2014 8:01am Edited Date/Time 4/15/2014 8:02am
nytsmaC wrote:
According to MXA's scales: 2014 YZ250 218lbs 2014 YZ250F 221lbs I'm as pro 2-stroke as they come, but let's not exaggerate the weight differences, it effects...
According to MXA's scales:

2014 YZ250 218lbs
2014 YZ250F 221lbs

I'm as pro 2-stroke as they come, but let's not exaggerate the weight differences, it effects credibility. A 250f with an aftermarket exhaust would weigh the same as a 250 smoker and by all means should be easier for any 13 year old to ride.
I don't care what MXA says, I have both sitting side by side in my garage. There is no way the 4 stroke is even close............not even close. I was being generous with 25 lb difference. And I personally ride a 4 stroke and love them but they are heavy.

"claimed" weights are exactly that, claimed.

"There is such a huge difference in height/weight from 13-17 year old kids. Some at 13 are big enough to safely handle a 250 2T, and then Some at 17 aren't big enough and can't safely get on a 250 stroke without putting themselves in danger. Good call to not allow 250 2T in the schoolboy 2."

Yet we still never cover the topic. If the 2 stroke is dangerous for the schoolboy, how is a heavier 250F not.

When ever there is a critique against allowing 250 2 strokes as dangerous and heavy and too much power for the schoolboy 2 stepping class, remember, heavier and just as powerful 4 strokes are legal in this class. THAT is the topic.

Bad, biased call to not allow 250 2strokes.

Anyone know the Dagners from southern Illinois, kid is a great rider but the family is on a shoe string budget. After saving for months and numerous e-bay searches he finally gets the parts to fix his 4 banger. Takes it to Sweeneys MX and grenades the motor again. Now I know everyone will be screaming "off topic of course" about who built what, but the fact remains the kid will miss another year of racing because he does not have a bike. This time it took both cases so basically he needs a complete motor. $4000 instead of $1500. Why does he not ride a 2 stroke you say, kids races schoolboy 2 class and HAS to have a 4 stroke to try and qualify.

Talking sideways about this all you want............simple fact is this, if a 2 stroke is legal in the AMA schoolboy class and Lorettas is an AMA race, a 250 2 stroke should b legal. Whether you want to ride one or not, if you think a 13 yr old should ride one or that bigfoot has three testicles that are clean shaven is not the issue. Politics and money hungry people are the reason why this bike can't be raced.

Lets see which direction, AWAY from the actual topic, this thread goes next.
MotoX85
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4/15/2014 8:08am
Also real quick before the spin, I WANT him to ride the 4 stroke, HE wants to ride the 2 stroke. He says he likes the power, light weight and feel of the 2T. (and to be honest he rides this thing like I never thought he could, I thought he would be creeping around on it and he has that thing pinned)

I just plopped $7 grand down on a bike HE DOES NOT want to try and force him to ride it (and I can ride it too, man this thing is sweet)

So I am not bashing anything, 2 or 4 or whatever, makes no difference to me.

Just why is the bike legal in the AMA rule book but not legal at the AMA sanctioned MXsports qualifiers and Lorettas. That is the debate, nothing else.
4/15/2014 8:09am Edited Date/Time 4/15/2014 8:12am
Man you're really dead-set in your beliefs. This is going to be like talking to a wall, but I'll have another go at it.

"Yet we still never cover the topic. If the 2 stroke is dangerous for the schoolboy, how is a heavier 250F not."

250F's are easier to ride than 2 strokes. A well tuned 250 2 stroke will walk away from 250F's all day. (Talking amateur tuned here, not pro team tune...)


Yz 250 has 44-48 horsepower. Ass end breaks loose, they're more difficult to ride than a 4 stroke.
Yz 250F has 30-35 horsepower. Has monster traction and I think it's more manageable for younger racers.

I think you should just run the KTM 150sx and forget about it if you're worried about rebuilding grenaded motors.

DC answered your question. You don't have to keep asking why it's legal in AMA but not at Loretta's.....I wish DC would just say Money and Politics and honda bought him off just to appease you, even though it's not true.
nytsmaC
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4/15/2014 8:23am
nytsmaC wrote:
According to MXA's scales: 2014 YZ250 218lbs 2014 YZ250F 221lbs I'm as pro 2-stroke as they come, but let's not exaggerate the weight differences, it effects...
According to MXA's scales:

2014 YZ250 218lbs
2014 YZ250F 221lbs

I'm as pro 2-stroke as they come, but let's not exaggerate the weight differences, it effects credibility. A 250f with an aftermarket exhaust would weigh the same as a 250 smoker and by all means should be easier for any 13 year old to ride.
MotoX85 wrote:
I don't care what MXA says, I have both sitting side by side in my garage. There is no way the 4 stroke is even close............not...
I don't care what MXA says, I have both sitting side by side in my garage. There is no way the 4 stroke is even close............not even close. I was being generous with 25 lb difference. And I personally ride a 4 stroke and love them but they are heavy.

"claimed" weights are exactly that, claimed.

"There is such a huge difference in height/weight from 13-17 year old kids. Some at 13 are big enough to safely handle a 250 2T, and then Some at 17 aren't big enough and can't safely get on a 250 stroke without putting themselves in danger. Good call to not allow 250 2T in the schoolboy 2."

Yet we still never cover the topic. If the 2 stroke is dangerous for the schoolboy, how is a heavier 250F not.

When ever there is a critique against allowing 250 2 strokes as dangerous and heavy and too much power for the schoolboy 2 stepping class, remember, heavier and just as powerful 4 strokes are legal in this class. THAT is the topic.

Bad, biased call to not allow 250 2strokes.

Anyone know the Dagners from southern Illinois, kid is a great rider but the family is on a shoe string budget. After saving for months and numerous e-bay searches he finally gets the parts to fix his 4 banger. Takes it to Sweeneys MX and grenades the motor again. Now I know everyone will be screaming "off topic of course" about who built what, but the fact remains the kid will miss another year of racing because he does not have a bike. This time it took both cases so basically he needs a complete motor. $4000 instead of $1500. Why does he not ride a 2 stroke you say, kids races schoolboy 2 class and HAS to have a 4 stroke to try and qualify.

Talking sideways about this all you want............simple fact is this, if a 2 stroke is legal in the AMA schoolboy class and Lorettas is an AMA race, a 250 2 stroke should b legal. Whether you want to ride one or not, if you think a 13 yr old should ride one or that bigfoot has three testicles that are clean shaven is not the issue. Politics and money hungry people are the reason why this bike can't be raced.

Lets see which direction, AWAY from the actual topic, this thread goes next.
Not to derail the thread, but MXA's weights are actual ready to ride weight with no gas done on their own scale. Not manufacturers' claimed weight. They're not as far apart as you might think. My TM 450mx was only 12lbs heavier than my Husky CR125 weighed back to back on the same shipping scale.

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