Risk vs Reward interesting article on Vital MTB

Dirtysmile56
Edited Date/Time 10/20/2015 4:57pm
In the wake of Paul Basagoitia's crash at Rampage this weekend.
Risk vs Reward

The Mtb riders are pretty pissed about the "Disposable heroes" theory that's pretty much par for the course in moto.

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Thelen20
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Thelen20 10/19/2015 12:13am
10/19/2015 12:13am Edited Date/Time 10/19/2015 12:15am
I just got done watching a bunch of the rampage 2015 coverage and my god, I think that is more dangerous than the isle of man tt! A couple inches to the left or the right and these guys are dead!

I love that there are people on this earth skilled enough to tackle that mountain like they do because it is truly breath taking to watch! These warriors/psycho's need to be rewarded and taken care of! Let's hope red bull steps up and this amazing event can continue to take place without leaving the stars of the show out in the cold.

And prayers sent for Paul bas!
10000hrs
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10000hrs 10/19/2015 4:52am
10/19/2015 4:52am
Deep questions here. I have heard that due to evolution, a dog will eat till it dies.

So if you go away on a two week vacation and leave out two weeks worth of dog food
And the dog eats it all in one setting and dies, whose fault is it?
The dogs or the owner?

Now change the situation to people. If you set up an obstacle course where you could die, lets say a Spartan Race, and put a pot of gold at the end of it and someone dies, who is at fault, the promoter or the participant?

I am a personal freedom guy but I have a tough call with this one.

I think I read here the Danny Chandler never felt the factories done him right. Seems like a similar situation.
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hvaughn88 10/19/2015 6:37am
10/19/2015 6:37am
10000hrs wrote:
Deep questions here. I have heard that due to evolution, a dog will eat till it dies. So if you go away on a two week...
Deep questions here. I have heard that due to evolution, a dog will eat till it dies.

So if you go away on a two week vacation and leave out two weeks worth of dog food
And the dog eats it all in one setting and dies, whose fault is it?
The dogs or the owner?

Now change the situation to people. If you set up an obstacle course where you could die, lets say a Spartan Race, and put a pot of gold at the end of it and someone dies, who is at fault, the promoter or the participant?

I am a personal freedom guy but I have a tough call with this one.

I think I read here the Danny Chandler never felt the factories done him right. Seems like a similar situation.
I don't know how to say this without sounding insensitive at this time, but the participant.
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IWreckALot 10/19/2015 7:00am
10/19/2015 7:00am
10000hrs wrote:
Deep questions here. I have heard that due to evolution, a dog will eat till it dies. So if you go away on a two week...
Deep questions here. I have heard that due to evolution, a dog will eat till it dies.

So if you go away on a two week vacation and leave out two weeks worth of dog food
And the dog eats it all in one setting and dies, whose fault is it?
The dogs or the owner?

Now change the situation to people. If you set up an obstacle course where you could die, lets say a Spartan Race, and put a pot of gold at the end of it and someone dies, who is at fault, the promoter or the participant?

I am a personal freedom guy but I have a tough call with this one.

I think I read here the Danny Chandler never felt the factories done him right. Seems like a similar situation.
hvaughn88 wrote:
I don't know how to say this without sounding insensitive at this time, but the participant.
Professional sports in general are only worth it if the worst case scenario doesn't come true. Once you're injured, your problems just compound. These sponsors are good to them while they're producing but they drop them the second they feel there is something better. It's easy to say that it's the participants fault, but there are many more factors at play than a simple decision of "just don't do it".

Almost every elite athlete (with exceptions) is groomed from a VERY early age to become the pinnacle of their sport. So the parents essentially decide their career. In many cases, it's all they're taught from day one. And in the 20 years it takes to become an elite athlete, the sport evolves significantly. So someone training beginning at age 5 or 10 in their discipline will face a much more dangerous and extreme competition than what it is at the time they begin training.

I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with either of you by any means, but not participating in an event will definitively have a very negative consequence. Participating will have at best, great rewards, probably a little more neutral, and injury or worse is not all that common.

The Shop

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hvaughn88
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hvaughn88 10/19/2015 7:05am
10/19/2015 7:05am Edited Date/Time 10/19/2015 7:08am
10000hrs wrote:
Deep questions here. I have heard that due to evolution, a dog will eat till it dies. So if you go away on a two week...
Deep questions here. I have heard that due to evolution, a dog will eat till it dies.

So if you go away on a two week vacation and leave out two weeks worth of dog food
And the dog eats it all in one setting and dies, whose fault is it?
The dogs or the owner?

Now change the situation to people. If you set up an obstacle course where you could die, lets say a Spartan Race, and put a pot of gold at the end of it and someone dies, who is at fault, the promoter or the participant?

I am a personal freedom guy but I have a tough call with this one.

I think I read here the Danny Chandler never felt the factories done him right. Seems like a similar situation.
hvaughn88 wrote:
I don't know how to say this without sounding insensitive at this time, but the participant.
IWreckALot wrote:
Professional sports in general are only worth it if the worst case scenario doesn't come true. Once you're injured, your problems just compound. These sponsors are...
Professional sports in general are only worth it if the worst case scenario doesn't come true. Once you're injured, your problems just compound. These sponsors are good to them while they're producing but they drop them the second they feel there is something better. It's easy to say that it's the participants fault, but there are many more factors at play than a simple decision of "just don't do it".

Almost every elite athlete (with exceptions) is groomed from a VERY early age to become the pinnacle of their sport. So the parents essentially decide their career. In many cases, it's all they're taught from day one. And in the 20 years it takes to become an elite athlete, the sport evolves significantly. So someone training beginning at age 5 or 10 in their discipline will face a much more dangerous and extreme competition than what it is at the time they begin training.

I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with either of you by any means, but not participating in an event will definitively have a very negative consequence. Participating will have at best, great rewards, probably a little more neutral, and injury or worse is not all that common.
For me, I try not to over complicate it. If I'm standing at the top of that mountain and looking down, seeing the gaps I have to hit, yada yada yada, and then someone tells me "if all goes well, you'll win a few grand," then I'm not participating. Simple as that. I guess it's safe to say I'll never be a professional extreme athlete, though.

Edit: and once again, I apologize if I offend anyone, because I know it's a little "soon" to be having this type of discussion given how recent this tragedy is. I really do hope he fights back and does well.
Andy_Greenney 10/19/2015 7:15am
10/19/2015 7:15am
So far there has only been the participant or the promoter.......when it comes to professional sport how about US the spectator. Companies sponser riders on the basis that we buy the product they are promoting, why not shift demand to the companies that can best provide the riders both while they are competing and injured.....just a thought.
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yak651 10/19/2015 7:50am
10/19/2015 7:50am
While reading I was like "riders chose to do it, not promoters fault", sounds just like Moto that very few can make any money, until I got to the end where it stated that "journalist" can't write about the injuries and Red Bull was saying he was fine. WTF, that's some China stuff right there...
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JM485 10/19/2015 7:59am
10/19/2015 7:59am
That was a great article, for those guys to get compensated so little is disgusting, pure and simple greed. I don't think it's too much to ask for guys in an event like this to be covered by an insurance policy, I don't know if that would work for supercross or motocross due to the larger number of participants but for Rampage it's crazy that they send those guys out there with no coverage at all! Redbull definately has a little work to do if they want to make that event legitament, to act like these guys are disposable is pretty wrong.
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Camp332 10/19/2015 8:00am
10/19/2015 8:00am
I actually saw that crash as it happened when I was watching it live last week. It was very very scary. I started launching prayers immediately. My feelings on the topic here are that it's the participant's decision to go or not go.
Dirtysmile56 10/19/2015 9:31am
10/19/2015 9:31am
It's a sad reality with these action sports. The Rampage seems almost like they are trying to kill someone. Seriously! It's getting so bad it's kind of stupid. If the riders are going to wait around for a sponsor to do something about it they are going to be waiting a long time, just like the "Riders Union" in Pro Mx. The only power they (the riders)possess is to boycott the fucking event at the last second after the money is spent by the Promoter ie: Red Bull. Even that might not get the desired results. Or just no show the entire event. My guess is the brass at RB are going to shit can this event after this anyway. But at the end of the day, choosing hucking yourself off of cliffs on a bicycle as a career, you are gambling with your life and the chances are much higher you are going to end up broke and broken than whole and financially set. This shit makes gambling in Vegas seem like a responsible career choice. Choose your career wisely and definitely don't expect an energy drink company to give a shit about your health.... Oxymoron of the day "Energy drink company that cares about peoples health"
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Silliker269 10/19/2015 9:37am
10/19/2015 9:37am
It sounds bad but they weren't forced to participate

FYI; The winner gets $100,000
GuyB
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GuyB 10/19/2015 9:42am
10/19/2015 9:42am
It's not just a Red Bull issue.

I think the biggest shock to me is there hasn't been a death at the X Games yet. I was there the year that Jake Brown fell out of the sky on the Skateboard Big Air. I also used to absolutely cringe while shooting the Freestyle Best Trick event. Some guys were prepared to ride on that stage. Some weren't (particularly in the latter years when they started adding YouTube guys).

Who remembers Kyle Loza dropping out of Best Trick? You could see him working over the risk/reward in his head while sitting on the platorm, waiting to drop in.

There's some rider responsibility for sure. There's also a lot of sponsor pressure. Who's right? That's up to the individual.
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Falcon 10/19/2015 11:39am
10/19/2015 11:39am Edited Date/Time 10/19/2015 11:40am
It sucks for the riders, but if RedBull can attract enough participants to make this all happen and pay $X, why would they offer up $X+Y? Just because?
It's a sad truth that in business you get what you negotiate. As a group, pro athletes are apparently not negotiating well enough. It won't change unless it has to, and that will only be when the top 10 guys refuse to ride unless the sponsor pays better for the bottom 15-20 guys. (Or if we as spectators refuse to attend/watch/discuss.)
JamesOliver 10/19/2015 11:59am
10/19/2015 11:59am
GuyB wrote:
It's not just a Red Bull issue. I think the biggest shock to me is there hasn't been a death at the X Games yet. I...
It's not just a Red Bull issue.

I think the biggest shock to me is there hasn't been a death at the X Games yet. I was there the year that Jake Brown fell out of the sky on the Skateboard Big Air. I also used to absolutely cringe while shooting the Freestyle Best Trick event. Some guys were prepared to ride on that stage. Some weren't (particularly in the latter years when they started adding YouTube guys).

Who remembers Kyle Loza dropping out of Best Trick? You could see him working over the risk/reward in his head while sitting on the platorm, waiting to drop in.

There's some rider responsibility for sure. There's also a lot of sponsor pressure. Who's right? That's up to the individual.
Makes you wonder how fewer injuries there might have been if the landing wasn't so hard. This is when Pastrana crashed trying to land the TP720 and you can see that the landing is absolutely rock hard. Surely none of the riders want it to be hard pack like that?

Camp332
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Camp332 10/19/2015 12:00pm
10/19/2015 12:00pm
Back to this Rampage event that just passed. The guys who finished their first runs successfully didn't even take their 2nd runs due to the fact that they didn't want to risk it.

Rampage is completely insane from my point of view. Paul Basagoitia's body just stopped short of falling off a wayyyy bigger cliff.
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Homey55 10/19/2015 1:45pm
10/19/2015 1:45pm
This conversation has come up after the last few Rampage's. It has gotten to the point that the riders are literally scared the whole way down the run and are elated to make the run without crashing. The risk is not worth the reward and it's a miracle that no one has died while competing at this event.

There is no way that these guys would build these jumps/drops in their own backyard for fun so why do they need to push beyond their limits for an event that does not cover their expenses?
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Hut 10/19/2015 2:35pm
10/19/2015 2:35pm
I didn't see Paul Basagoitia's crash but this is a good article, I agree with the writer. All the riders and crew should be taken care of. Same thing goes for MX/SX.

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GuyB 10/19/2015 2:46pm
10/19/2015 2:46pm
Falcon wrote:
It sucks for the riders, but if RedBull can attract enough participants to make this all happen and pay $X, why would they offer up $X+Y...
It sucks for the riders, but if RedBull can attract enough participants to make this all happen and pay $X, why would they offer up $X+Y? Just because?
It's a sad truth that in business you get what you negotiate. As a group, pro athletes are apparently not negotiating well enough. It won't change unless it has to, and that will only be when the top 10 guys refuse to ride unless the sponsor pays better for the bottom 15-20 guys. (Or if we as spectators refuse to attend/watch/discuss.)
Or you don't have another younger batch of riders wanting to be where the vets are, and willing to take the risks.
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Hut 10/19/2015 2:50pm
10/19/2015 2:50pm Edited Date/Time 10/19/2015 2:50pm
Does anyone have a video link of Paul's Basagoitia's run/crash? I would like to see what he went down.
I have spent a great part of my life snowboarding in the back country and know what it's like to have my knees shake looking down a steep shot but I can't even imagine some of the stuff these guys do, it blows my mind to be honest.
temporarily_locked 10/19/2015 3:00pm
10/19/2015 3:00pm
I just look at the NFL, the amount of time it's been around, how much larger viewership it has had, and how long it took for the sport to be built into what it is.

MX and MTB will never get anywhere close to that unfortunately.
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Falcon 10/19/2015 5:07pm
10/19/2015 5:07pm
Falcon wrote:
It sucks for the riders, but if RedBull can attract enough participants to make this all happen and pay $X, why would they offer up $X+Y...
It sucks for the riders, but if RedBull can attract enough participants to make this all happen and pay $X, why would they offer up $X+Y? Just because?
It's a sad truth that in business you get what you negotiate. As a group, pro athletes are apparently not negotiating well enough. It won't change unless it has to, and that will only be when the top 10 guys refuse to ride unless the sponsor pays better for the bottom 15-20 guys. (Or if we as spectators refuse to attend/watch/discuss.)
GuyB wrote:
Or you don't have another younger batch of riders wanting to be where the vets are, and willing to take the risks.
True. Drop the top 10 out and BAM! the next 10 will fill the slots.
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bob567 10/19/2015 5:30pm
10/19/2015 5:30pm
Are the riders contractually obligated to participate in the events? If not then its on them. They own the outcome when they elect to participate. I like motocross and mountain biking. They are athletic events. I don't enjoy watching extreme sports. Personally I feel freakstyle has done a tremendous amount of damage to our sport. For the past 15 years every time someone finds out we race the same questions come up....so you do back flips and stuff? Charter cable even labels every freakstyle event as motocross on the channel guide now. Im sure parents are lining up to have their kids do what they see labeled as motocross on tv. Time for the motorcycle industry to ban the use of the word motocross for anything other than the true meaning of the term. Even then it will take years to undo the damage it has done to the sport.
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Beast666 10/19/2015 6:06pm
10/19/2015 6:06pm Edited Date/Time 10/19/2015 7:00pm
Hut wrote:
Does anyone have a video link of Paul's Basagoitia's run/crash? I would like to see what he went down. I have spent a great part of...
Does anyone have a video link of Paul's Basagoitia's run/crash? I would like to see what he went down.
I have spent a great part of my life snowboarding in the back country and know what it's like to have my knees shake looking down a steep shot but I can't even imagine some of the stuff these guys do, it blows my mind to be honest.
http://www.redbull.tv/videos/event-stream-556/mountain-bike-freeride-th…

his run is at the 1 hour 30 min mark. He has a solid run going until it went all wrong for him.
jasen.bougher 10/19/2015 6:30pm
10/19/2015 6:30pm
GuyB wrote:
It's not just a Red Bull issue. I think the biggest shock to me is there hasn't been a death at the X Games yet. I...
It's not just a Red Bull issue.

I think the biggest shock to me is there hasn't been a death at the X Games yet. I was there the year that Jake Brown fell out of the sky on the Skateboard Big Air. I also used to absolutely cringe while shooting the Freestyle Best Trick event. Some guys were prepared to ride on that stage. Some weren't (particularly in the latter years when they started adding YouTube guys).

Who remembers Kyle Loza dropping out of Best Trick? You could see him working over the risk/reward in his head while sitting on the platorm, waiting to drop in.

There's some rider responsibility for sure. There's also a lot of sponsor pressure. Who's right? That's up to the individual.
Caleb moore
Dirtysmile56 10/19/2015 6:46pm
10/19/2015 6:46pm
Wow! You guys have some great thoughts/responses on this issue. This stuff is getting freaking serious! As Guy B said, X games are out of control, rampage is nuts, shoot even straight rhythm is pretty crazy(at least it's a controlled environment) but RJ Hampshire's crash showed how easily that could end up a death/near death experience. As much as I believe in personal responsibility, these energy drink sponsors are essentially coaxing these athletes deeper into the dragons lair with the allure of fame and fortune. I get it when the evolution is mostly participant driven but this rampage deal seems like they just figured Fuck it! We're going to build the most insane course and see who goes for it and see who survives and who doesn't. Frankly their actions (no insurance,no reporting of serious injuries allowed) is wrong. I like to call it "Acting in good faith" or "ethics" (doing the right thing even if you don't have to). As in any business transaction you act in good faith. Yes you could screw someone over on a deal but would you? A solid reputable business or business person wouldn't based on ones ethics. If there isn't an equitable exchange then you don't participate or do the deal. Red Bull in the case of the Rampage is most definitely not acting in good faith. They hold the power, the athletes are at a massive disadvantage from a negotiation standpoint. Therefore, I believe ethically the burden is on Red Bull to ensure that some equitable exchange takes place ie: insurance, a safer course, etc... I also think that we need to let these athletes know that we the fans have their Fucking backs in the event they are forced to boycott an event and let the companies like Red Bull know that none of us are going to stand for the exploitation of these guys. Honestly though, I think events like Rampage need to go away!
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hvaughn88 10/19/2015 6:51pm
10/19/2015 6:51pm
Dirtysmile56 wrote:
Wow! You guys have some great thoughts/responses on this issue. This stuff is getting freaking serious! As Guy B said, X games are out of control...
Wow! You guys have some great thoughts/responses on this issue. This stuff is getting freaking serious! As Guy B said, X games are out of control, rampage is nuts, shoot even straight rhythm is pretty crazy(at least it's a controlled environment) but RJ Hampshire's crash showed how easily that could end up a death/near death experience. As much as I believe in personal responsibility, these energy drink sponsors are essentially coaxing these athletes deeper into the dragons lair with the allure of fame and fortune. I get it when the evolution is mostly participant driven but this rampage deal seems like they just figured Fuck it! We're going to build the most insane course and see who goes for it and see who survives and who doesn't. Frankly their actions (no insurance,no reporting of serious injuries allowed) is wrong. I like to call it "Acting in good faith" or "ethics" (doing the right thing even if you don't have to). As in any business transaction you act in good faith. Yes you could screw someone over on a deal but would you? A solid reputable business or business person wouldn't based on ones ethics. If there isn't an equitable exchange then you don't participate or do the deal. Red Bull in the case of the Rampage is most definitely not acting in good faith. They hold the power, the athletes are at a massive disadvantage from a negotiation standpoint. Therefore, I believe ethically the burden is on Red Bull to ensure that some equitable exchange takes place ie: insurance, a safer course, etc... I also think that we need to let these athletes know that we the fans have their Fucking backs in the event they are forced to boycott an event and let the companies like Red Bull know that none of us are going to stand for the exploitation of these guys. Honestly though, I think events like Rampage need to go away!
If I'm not mistaken, don't the riders have some creative freedoms to dig their own lines?
Thelen20
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Thelen20 10/19/2015 6:55pm
10/19/2015 6:55pm Edited Date/Time 10/19/2015 6:59pm
I may be in the minority but I hope the event does not go away, these guys are truly amazing, the skill (and balls) they possess are incredible and if they are comfortable challenging themselves on that level I want to see every second of it!

https://youtu.be/j6CmK6iZHdk

I personally thought this run was the winner
Hut
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Hut 10/19/2015 7:27pm
10/19/2015 7:27pm
Hut wrote:
Does anyone have a video link of Paul's Basagoitia's run/crash? I would like to see what he went down. I have spent a great part of...
Does anyone have a video link of Paul's Basagoitia's run/crash? I would like to see what he went down.
I have spent a great part of my life snowboarding in the back country and know what it's like to have my knees shake looking down a steep shot but I can't even imagine some of the stuff these guys do, it blows my mind to be honest.
Beast666 wrote:
http://www.redbull.tv/videos/event-stream-556/mountain-bike-freeride-thrills-from-utah-usa his run is at the 1 hour 30 min mark. He has a solid run going until it went all wrong for him.
http://www.redbull.tv/videos/event-stream-556/mountain-bike-freeride-th…

his run is at the 1 hour 30 min mark. He has a solid run going until it went all wrong for him.
Thank you, he did have a good run going. Thank God he didn't get pitched off the next drop also. Thoughts and prayers for the best possible outcome for him.
Hut
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Hut 10/19/2015 7:40pm
10/19/2015 7:40pm Edited Date/Time 10/19/2015 7:44pm
Dirtysmile56 wrote:
Wow! You guys have some great thoughts/responses on this issue. This stuff is getting freaking serious! As Guy B said, X games are out of control...
Wow! You guys have some great thoughts/responses on this issue. This stuff is getting freaking serious! As Guy B said, X games are out of control, rampage is nuts, shoot even straight rhythm is pretty crazy(at least it's a controlled environment) but RJ Hampshire's crash showed how easily that could end up a death/near death experience. As much as I believe in personal responsibility, these energy drink sponsors are essentially coaxing these athletes deeper into the dragons lair with the allure of fame and fortune. I get it when the evolution is mostly participant driven but this rampage deal seems like they just figured Fuck it! We're going to build the most insane course and see who goes for it and see who survives and who doesn't. Frankly their actions (no insurance,no reporting of serious injuries allowed) is wrong. I like to call it "Acting in good faith" or "ethics" (doing the right thing even if you don't have to). As in any business transaction you act in good faith. Yes you could screw someone over on a deal but would you? A solid reputable business or business person wouldn't based on ones ethics. If there isn't an equitable exchange then you don't participate or do the deal. Red Bull in the case of the Rampage is most definitely not acting in good faith. They hold the power, the athletes are at a massive disadvantage from a negotiation standpoint. Therefore, I believe ethically the burden is on Red Bull to ensure that some equitable exchange takes place ie: insurance, a safer course, etc... I also think that we need to let these athletes know that we the fans have their Fucking backs in the event they are forced to boycott an event and let the companies like Red Bull know that none of us are going to stand for the exploitation of these guys. Honestly though, I think events like Rampage need to go away!
hvaughn88 wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, don't the riders have some creative freedoms to dig their own lines?
Yes they do create their own lines. The original article explains the amount of work these guys ftriends (diggers) put in without compensation.

I am not sure how I feel about rampage going away. As a fan I totally enjoy the thrill of it all but now that I am learning more it sickens me that they are not getting their due for the extreme risks and hard work that these hard core competitors put into it. 42 invites and at least 7 in the hospital... That is insane.

Post a reply to: Risk vs Reward interesting article on Vital MTB