Rider's union a no no ?

munsch121
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Edited Date/Time 1/26/2012 9:10pm
Is there any truth to that ? The riders are not allowed to form a rider's union, if they do, the AMA has the right to yank their pro license ? Villopoto touched on it in his transworld interview......what's the deal ?

http://motocross.transworld.net/1000095593/features/catching-up-withrya…
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nytsmaC
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5/18/2010 8:56am
Fuck the AMA, call their bluff. If everyone sticks together, what are they going to do? Revoke all of the factory supported riders' licenses? I'm sure that will work out well for them.
RACEGUY
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5/18/2010 9:03am
I'd have to go back and re-read the rule, but I'm not sure it restricts the riders from "organizing", it only comes into play if a rider or riders disrupt an event (ie "strike" or threaten to do so).

That would only remove the option of "witholding of services" in the equation.

That doesn't exactly stop the riders from forming an association.
5/18/2010 9:04am
Im sure they all have the "what if" in the back of their heads. It's hard to form a strike like that with everyone all in. The AMA would be absolutely screwed if they were to yank everyones license...no one would show up to the races. And I am sure there would be a boat load of lawsuits from just about every company with ties to professional motocross.
Shenzi
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5/18/2010 9:06am
A "union" is not what's really needed and not what they have really in mind. A "say and a voice" is what they want and a "Riders Safety Group" or "Pro Riders Association" will need to be in place at some points.

The Shop

munsch121
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5/18/2010 9:09am
I found this on page 34 #8. Engaging in a rider boycott, public protest or other similar
concerted activity meant to stop, delay or otherwise inhibit
the start or completion of any portion of an AMA
Supercross an FIM World Championship event

Thats all I can really find on the matter, I totally agree, fuck them and their rules, I think this is what the riders are referring to when they say "we all must be on the same page" what is the AMA or FIM really going to do...hold a novice class national ??
5/18/2010 9:11am Edited Date/Time 5/18/2010 9:12am
A perfect example was in Vegas 1 year when Mac and others didn't like the lighting and didn't race but others did so except for fans nothing was lost and the race still went on. They need what Shenzi relating too.
Ozy
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5/18/2010 9:18am
if anybody filed suit in a federal court to challenge some rule in the AMA that outlaws unions they would win
RACEGUY
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5/18/2010 9:29am
Ozy wrote:
if anybody filed suit in a federal court to challenge some rule in the AMA that outlaws unions they would win
As I said, it appears as though the rule doesn't disallow the formation of an association, it only removes the right to disrupt an event.

If the withdrawal of services is the only mechanism anybody sees as "the hammer", then there is a problem. Even the biggest of the big "unions" have learned that the "strike" or "walkout" has lost a lot of the magic it once held. The consequences are imponderable. There are better ways to resolve conflicts.

I hope they continue to study the 21st century options at their disposal. If it's all about safety, there is a LOT of latitude.
500guy
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5/18/2010 9:35am
When faced with the real cost and backlash a Union would create, the top guy's who will ultimately fund a union will back off. it's not a good deal for them.
RACEGUY
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5/18/2010 9:56am
500guy wrote:
When faced with the real cost and backlash a Union would create, the top guy's who will ultimately fund a union will back off. it's not...
When faced with the real cost and backlash a Union would create, the top guy's who will ultimately fund a union will back off. it's not a good deal for them.
There's that "U" word again.

Not the best choice.
Matt Wozney
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5/18/2010 10:01am
Don't call it a union.
Something like a Rider Safety Organization is better.
flarider
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5/18/2010 10:18am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 10:53pm
Stop calling it a union. People who do that are cutting their dicks off before they even get them out of their pants.


AMA Rulebook does state that they reserve the right to revoke the license of, disqualify or suspend any rider or group that tries to delay or halt an event.

Remember, AMA is a MEMBERSHIP ORGANIZATION, you agree to the rules by signing the application.


If you form a union, who is the employer? Riders are typically independent contractors and technically self-employed. AMA is not an employer, nor is Feld, nor is MX Sports. They provide a venue for your contractor (your team) to let you race. They're not the employer.

So, how do you form a union against people where you agree to follow their rules and are not your employers?


As for those of you who say "Screw 'em, if everyone walks, there's no show," you're wrong and the Las Vegas race proves it...someone will always race, for either the fame or money, but someone will race. The privateer who would never have a shot at big money, will race.
YAKMX
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5/18/2010 10:23am
I hope they don't get caught up in the title of any such organization, but there needs to be a collective rider input. And I don't mean from retired racers,but from those still participating on a weekly basis. Those are the racers that know first hand what is what. If Reed or any other top current racers says something is sketchy then it probably is.It is easy for us to sit on the sidelines as bench racers and say they are just a bunch of whiners. We all want good racing and I believe they want to race a good race. But to get caught up in Union or whatever is silly .
500guy
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5/18/2010 10:26am
No sketchy obstacle has ever caused a good race.
flarider
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5/18/2010 10:28am
YAKMX wrote:
I hope they don't get caught up in the title of any such organization, but there needs to be a collective rider input. And I don't...
I hope they don't get caught up in the title of any such organization, but there needs to be a collective rider input. And I don't mean from retired racers,but from those still participating on a weekly basis. Those are the racers that know first hand what is what. If Reed or any other top current racers says something is sketchy then it probably is.It is easy for us to sit on the sidelines as bench racers and say they are just a bunch of whiners. We all want good racing and I believe they want to race a good race. But to get caught up in Union or whatever is silly .
But let me ask you a question, which does highlight a problem, if Reed and Stewart are OK with a section, but is sketchy for privateers who don't have billion dollar Ti suspension, who gets the nod? Who's word is worth more? If the top guys say it's fine, but is scary as shit to everyone else, do you change it?

This is part of the problem with the whole thing....the "haves" and the "have nots"


alien
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5/18/2010 10:29am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 10:53pm
Anyone remeber James Eikel ? He tried to organize the riders in the early 90's and was swiftly shut down. I seem to recall he fought it for a while but eventually gave up .
Others may know more about his case than I do but he didn't have any luck with a riders union.
SCR
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5/18/2010 10:32am
An actual Union might have negative unintended consequences for riders and fans.
It sounds like they are talking about a riders representative committe to have a say in track layout and safety. That seems reasonable. Maybe every year or two have like 5 veteran riders volunteer or have top 50 AMA numbers vote for 5 reps? It would be a responsibility for the riders and hopefully a privilage?
qdogg691
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5/18/2010 11:16am
I used to know Jimmie before he was robbing banks, but yea he tried it. They basically threatened his life for it. Of course that was back in the day and he was not the high profile rider GL or CR is. I agree that it should not be called a union, that name is a curse word these days.
loftyair
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5/18/2010 12:38pm
PMRA
Professional Motocross Racing Association.
Run by riders, team managers, etc.
No more AMA!
Big purses!
Sweet venues!
Make it better for riders, manufacturers, fans, tracks.
Keep all the money 'within'.
Goodbye AMA and FIM!
swizcore
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5/18/2010 12:48pm
flarider wrote:
Stop calling it a union. People who do that are cutting their dicks off before they even get them out of their pants. AMA Rulebook does...
Stop calling it a union. People who do that are cutting their dicks off before they even get them out of their pants.


AMA Rulebook does state that they reserve the right to revoke the license of, disqualify or suspend any rider or group that tries to delay or halt an event.

Remember, AMA is a MEMBERSHIP ORGANIZATION, you agree to the rules by signing the application.


If you form a union, who is the employer? Riders are typically independent contractors and technically self-employed. AMA is not an employer, nor is Feld, nor is MX Sports. They provide a venue for your contractor (your team) to let you race. They're not the employer.

So, how do you form a union against people where you agree to follow their rules and are not your employers?


As for those of you who say "Screw 'em, if everyone walks, there's no show," you're wrong and the Las Vegas race proves it...someone will always race, for either the fame or money, but someone will race. The privateer who would never have a shot at big money, will race.
Next thing your gonna tell me the riders have to pay to be the entertainment that puts the fans' asses in the seats... wait...
5/18/2010 1:09pm
Kenny Roberts pulled it off in Road Racing ... GPs. I think that plan was to create a totally new organization doing their own promotions?

If Chad Reed can put together a SX series in Australia ... couldn't it work here?

Just_Wishing
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5/18/2010 1:40pm
Why does this seem to be such a major problem to get sarted? Don't the NBA and MLB have Player's Associations? What about Nascar? I'm pretty sure F1 has a retired driver among the stewards. Why is it so damn difficult in our sport in to get proper rider representation?
ImTheDude
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5/18/2010 1:59pm
sounds like a union to me.
to hell with the AMA
Mr. Info
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5/18/2010 2:11pm
MX Sports is the Owner of the series and there is no AMA except as a Title Plate as a courtesy to the AMA Tradition. MX Sports calls the shots just as Feld did in SX. The riders have a right to stand up for their saftey and other concerns.
5/18/2010 2:19pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 10:53pm
Kenny Roberts threatened to form a competing series to the FIM GP road racing series. It never materialized,but did open the eyes of the FIM in regards to track safety.

Dave Sadowski tried to form a riders union in the early '90's in US road racing. He asked for $10 per individual to become a member. He got about 30 riders and about the same number of corner workers to join.

It was far from successful.

If it is going to be called a Union, someone better have some deep pockets when litigation enters the show.
bobby397
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5/18/2010 2:25pm
sounds like it's becoming a choke act....
bobby397
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5/18/2010 2:27pm
Mr. Info wrote:
MX Sports is the Owner of the series and there is no AMA except as a Title Plate as a courtesy to the AMA Tradition. MX...
MX Sports is the Owner of the series and there is no AMA except as a Title Plate as a courtesy to the AMA Tradition. MX Sports calls the shots just as Feld did in SX. The riders have a right to stand up for their saftey and other concerns.
false, it is a AMA series ran by mxsports
newmann
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5/18/2010 2:35pm
The AMA will be the first to tell you they have nothing to do with pro racing anymore and that it is handled by MX Sports. That's what they told me when I inquired about a 2 stroke issue. Of course MX Sports can't make the rules either because Honda will take their toys and go home. The AMA has been and continues to be a bunch of idiots. That said, calling it a "union" is the most stupid thing they could do. The top 20 riders who's names are being used to promote the series would never be sent packing. I could see Meidoso's porn mx series would get a new life overnight.
5/18/2010 2:41pm
Just joined here...

I dont get it. Whats the problem with a union? its not like it is the first sport in th US to have a union/Association.... every other major sport in the us has it......NFLPA, NHLPA, MLBPA
WhipMeister
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5/18/2010 3:03pm
People keep getting lost in the semantics and technicalities here. Which contract says what. Whose rulebook applies. Is it or is it not a "union". What would happen in court. That's all unimportant blather that distracts from how and why effecting real change will actually come about.

Whether or not it is technically a 'union', an 'association', or a social club that meets in the middle of a field or on the internet is not important. Whether or not the AMA has a rule, is an employer or not, etc, is not important. Who the riders work for is not important. What *is* important is establishing leverage and bargaining power and then using that leverage to advance a safety agenda. And that *could be* ridiculously easy to do if the right people lead it and they force the focus away from those distractions and squarely onto making change happen.

Why easy? It's a win-win-win.

The promoters are putting on a show. The "AMA", especially with its diminished role, only has that role if there is a show. There can be no show without the performers. The sponsors are advertising products. They invest in the performers to represent those products. Again, no performer, no return on the advertising dollar.

A walkout or sickout or whatever is probably not necessary, but would only highlight the very problem the riders are trying to address: What happens when you don't have any performers? Injuries are taking more and more performers out of the shows every year. Every single rider that goes down represents a fan base that won't attend and products that won't be advertised. In other words it's in EVERY stakeholder's interest to take whatever steps they can to keep the performers on the stage.

The pattern has been repeated in a number of corners of motor sport, usually more privately than out in the open. This is what happened to advance the development and installation of SAFER barriers in 4 wheel racing. Same thing with restrictor plates, shorter 1/4 miles, etc. It ALWAYS starts with the performers.

Like anything, there will be people for it and against it. But few would argue that safety advancements made in other forms of racing hurt their associations in the long run.

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